bucko Wrote:One more thing. Be careful when you hear about "politeness" talk in Japanese. The ます/です form isn't really "polite". It just indicates that you are more conscientious of the listener and want to make your words easier to the ear. Real politeness (when you're constantly concerned about social heirarchies) starts when you get into keigo. The だ form is "normal" language. Newspapers, business reports, and everyday speech is in this だ form. Japanese people talk to themselves in the だ form.

Just to make it even more complicated, newspapers and business reports are often written in basic formal style, which uses である instead of だ.

bucko Wrote:The ます/です form isn't really "polite". It just indicates that you are more conscientious of the listener and want to make your words easier to the ear. Real politeness [...] starts when you get into keigo.

広辞苑 disagrees:

【ます】聞き手・読み手に対する丁寧な気持を表す。
【です】丁寧の意味をこめ、指定の意を表す。
【丁寧語】敬語の一つ。相手に対する話し手の直接の敬意を表現するもの。

I really wish there were standard English terms for 丁寧語, 尊敬語, and 謙譲語 -- like I said, I like JSL's "distal style" for 丁寧語 but it's not standard.

There is a difference in the change of いく to いきます vs. いく to いらっしゃる, though.

iSoron Wrote:広辞苑 disagrees:

【ます】聞き手・読み手に対する丁寧な気持を表す。
【です】丁寧の意味をこめ、指定の意を表す。
【丁寧語】敬語の一つ。相手に対する話し手の直接の敬意を表現するもの。

No it doesn't. You're just confused by the translation of 丁寧, which could have any number of equivalents in English. I used the word "conscientious". See yudantaiteki's post (above).

bucko Wrote:

iSoron Wrote:広辞苑 disagrees:

【ます】聞き手・読み手に対する丁寧な気持を表す。
【です】丁寧の意味をこめ、指定の意を表す。
【丁寧語】敬語の一つ。相手に対する話し手の直接の敬意を表現するもの。

No it doesn't. You're just confused by the translation of 丁寧, which could have any number of equivalents in English. I used the word "conscientious". See yudantaiteki's post (above).

When referring to Japanese grammar 丁寧 does not mean conscientious.

文法で、話し手が聞き手に対して敬意を表す言い方。→丁寧語

This is all semantics, but I don't think "conscientious" is a very clear word to use for 丁寧語 either, and "making your words easier to the ear" makes it sound like 丁寧語 is about aesthetics or sound.

Here is JSL's description (more or less):
The -masu/-masita portion of the [verbal forms in the table given above] is a style marker. It signals what will be called DISTAL-STYLE for verbals. This style indicates that the speaker is showing solicitude toward, and maintaining some linguistic distance from, the addressee. In other words, the speaker is being less direct and more formal as a sign of deference to the person addressed (and/or the topic of discussion), rather than talking directly, intimately, familiarly, abruptly, or carelessly. It contrasts with DIRECT-STYLE.

("deference" makes it sound a little like superior/inferior but that's not what is meant, I think it's being used with the second dictionary definition of "courteous regard, respect.")

Later in the book, conversations are given an overall label of along a scale of "careful" to "casual" depending on various features of the conversation, including the use of distal-style predicates (丁寧語). It's more complicated, but it describes the huge range and shades of style and politeness in Japanese better than more simple descriptions.

bucko Wrote:You're just confused by the translation of 丁寧, which could have any number of equivalents in English.

I think you are confusing the two following usages of 「丁寧」:

大辞林 Wrote:【丁寧】
（１）注意深く念入りであること。「何度も―に読む」
（２）動作や言葉遣いが，礼儀正しく，心がこもっていること。「―な挨拶」

Also, 丁寧語 is 敬語.

iSoron, I don't understand what you're trying to say. You seem to be preoccupied with pointing out rigid definitions (or else showing off the fact that you can understand definitions written in Japanese).

yudantaiteki, I agree "conscientious" is not a good word to use for 丁寧語, but it is one of many goods ways to describe 丁寧, the root of 丁寧語. I guess the point I was trying to make is that sticking to rigid English translations of 丁寧語, 敬語, 謙譲語 etc. can have undue effects. The JSL description there is very good, albeit a little theoretical, in that it describes all the different variances of language style in Japanese in terms of care taken to avoid directness.

Anyway, I hope we haven't scared the OP with all this talk! All he/she really needs to know at this point is that there are different ways to say something in Japanese which reflects the amount of care and effort you put into speaking, which in turn reflects the relationship between the two people speaking.

Bucko's explanation of the use of ん and の is spot-on, and were I less lazy I would have explained it like that more fully, haha.

Incidentally, there's a great great great great book by Jay Rubin (a professor of Harvard who translated a ton of Murakami books) called "Making Sense of Japanese". It has a good description of this, as well as the difference between は and が. Most importantly, it was the book that made me understand the causative and passive and the description is SUPER good. Just look at the Amazon reviews--nobody regrets buying that book. Plus, it's cheap.

As for the JSL description, it's always great to hear Jorden's very clear description. I met her at Cornell once and she was a great woman. Note that Rubin cites her a lot in the above-mentioned book, as well as pointing out one or two points which she was not fully correct on! Jorden did a ton for Japanese learning (e.g., She was the first person to realize that if you ask Japanese people if a sentence is correct or not, and then make a book based on such sentences, everything gets all screwed up. You should record what people actually say with a tape recorder, and look at what people actually write, and use that when you make a textbook).

Tzadeck - I second Making Sense of Japanese. It was a real eyeopener. Actually I credit my understanding of の and は/が (and many other forms, including the different uses of ため) directly from this book. It should be an essential read for anyone in intermediate Japanese.

bucko Wrote:iSoron, I don't understand what you're trying to say.

I'm saying 丁寧 can mean either 'scrupulous, thorough, meticulous, conscientious' 「丁寧に読む」「丁寧な説明」「丁寧に扱う」or 'polite, civil, courteous, well-mannered' 「丁寧な挨拶」「丁寧な言い方」「丁寧語」. Translating 「丁寧な挨拶」as "conscientious greeting" and 「丁寧語」as "conscientious language" is just flat-out wrong; that's not what they mean.

です/ます is all about politeness / courteousness.

bucko Wrote:I agree "conscientious" is not a good word to use for 丁寧語, but it is one of many goods ways to describe 丁寧.

Not in this case.

bucko Wrote:showing off the fact that you can understand definitions written in Japanese

I cited authoritative dictionaries because I knew you would never believe me otherwise.

iSoron - I still don't understand what your point is. I never translated 「丁寧な挨拶」as "conscientious greeting" or 「丁寧語」as "conscientious language". But come to think of it, maybe "conscientious language" is the best way to describe 丁寧語. I'll be using this from now on. Thanks!

bucko Wrote:iSoron - I still don't understand what your point is.

My point is that です/ます is real politeness. It's also a form of Keigo.
This directly contradicts what you said in post #25.