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I was disgressing in another topic so I've created a new topic instead, this is quite interesting for me, please correct me if my reasoning is wrong:

It's still a bit of a mistery to me as to how the "definition" of the kanji meanings comes from. I assume they are derived from the existing uses of the kanji (compounds or expressions maybe). In a way, the only "real" meaning of the kanji when there ever was, would be the original one when the language was created. And the additional meanings seen in kanji dictionaries are "made up" from their use in the language. In that way, I can see why people would say that knowing the dictionary meanings of a kanji is not important. They are like redundant information?

... let me try explain my convoluted thoughts :

米 the kanji for rice can also mean "america"

However it was never created to mean "america", its original, and only "real" meaning is "rice" (more or less)

But it can also be read as America as in :

在米 【ざいべい】 (n,vs) being in the USA, (P)

Then, the dictionary meaning of "USA" for that kanji, is redundant, because it is derived from the compound, and not the other way around. So, in that sense, I can see why some people, especially Japanese ;p, think that knowing the particular meanings of the kanji is not useful, they may not even know what the kanji mean. I think the original meaning is interesting, but in kanji dictionaries they always have multiple meanings, maybe one or two of which are the older, original meanings, and the rest are "made up" definitions.

Now that I think of it, maybe that's the reason why James Heisig went for the older meanings for his keywords, rather than use contemporary meanings.

So when we learn just one meaning with the keyword, we are most of the time, learning the one that really matters. And all the rest (especially modern uses) really ought to be learned in context, in compounds and such.

I say that because every now and then people new to RTK will question the keywords and feel that the keywords are completely unrelated to modern use. I also remember discussing about the use of the meanings from the Kodansha Kanji Learner's Dictionary. One user of the website wanted to change a lot of keywords and use the ones from KKLD instead. I used to think it wasnt such a bad idea but after this reflection of late I can see more clearly why it is in fact not so helpful.

I'd rather memorize keywords that are closer to the original meaning, regardless of how useful they may be in guessing modern kanji compounds, then memorize "made up" meanings.

Hope that makes sense!

Before they katakanized everything, japanese used kanji to write foreign words with their sounds. So Italy is いたりい　伊太利, Africa is あふりか 阿弗利加 etc. For short, you just associate the first kanji with the country, maybe? USA is 亜米利加 あめりか.

check out this FAQ http://mirrors.nihongo.org/www.hayamasa....ikoku.html

I'm thinking of it like "What is the meaning of A?" Well, perhaps in ancient history, that character did have a meaning. In kindergarden, we might learn "apple", or something...a word that starts with that character, but it doesn't *mean* that. So, as I go from RTK1 keywords to japanese language, I'm pretty much just thinking that the keywords are the "names" of the primatives, and this kanji is "spelled" using these primatives in this order, and later these compounds (that actually represent words) are "spelled" using these kanji in this order. I'll learn the words now, and I'll learn the "alphabet" now, but I won't worry about how the two connect until after I've really got them both pretty well done.

So, I guess I'm saying that dictionary "meanings" of isolated kanji is pretty arbitrary. Useful only if you find it useful. IMHO.

There are several characters that have 2 or more meanings that I would say are common enough that they warrant knowledge. An interesting thing to note is that I've noticed that when you get to that point, oft times which meaning the character takes lets you know which reading it'll use. As a simple example, take 大 - big. It can be read as おお、たい、だい... sometimes お but that's rarer. How do you tell the difference? Well, おお is usually associated with big (ie: 大型、大きい) whereas the other 2 main ones are usually associated with a meaning like important (ie: 大事、大臣、大使館、大切). The more you read, the more you'll pick up on stuff like that.

Knowing the dictionary meanings is very useful when you run across a combination you don't immediately recognize if you know how combinations are made in Japanese. I had a breakdown of this in another kanji book of mine - there are like 6 or so different ways to combine characters which I think Japanese people learn in school. I could list them if people are interested.

Naturally, I for one would like to hear any technique that the Japanese have noticed about the connection between readings and meanings in the way things are spelled and pronounced. Any fact or observation that makes itself useful, I'd like to be familiar with it.

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darg_sama Wrote:I could list them if people are interested.

Sure.

Ok, found it!

It's all in Japanese, so I'll provide the original text and then try to translate below.

a. 老人「老いた→人」→前の漢字が、後の漢字を説明..........親友、物価
b. 読書「読む←書を」→後の字が前の動詞の目的語･対象語...開会、登山
c. 身体「身　＝　体」→同じような意味の漢字を重ねる..........道路、絵画
d. 大小「大←→小」→反対やペアになる意味の漢字を重ねる..父母、前後
e. 国立「国が立てる」→主語と述語の関係......................地震、頭痛
f. 不便「便利ではない」→否定の意味を表す漢字が付く........未満、無料

a. The first character explains the second
b. The second character is the target of the preceeding verb
c. Putting together 2 characters with similar meanings
d. Putting together 2 characters which are opposites or a pair
e. Subject/predicate connection
f. Attachment of a negative

Also, if you run into long chains of characters, you can usually break it into smaller pieces of 2 characters each in order to look it up or figure it out as shown above.

Ex:
幼児英語教育研究所→幼児/英語/教育/研究/所
環境問題調査機関最終報告発表予定表→環境/問題/調査/機関/最終/報告/発表/予定/表

I studied kanji for a long time before I started this book, and so I knew quite a bit about them, but when I went through the book, I never strayed from the suggested keywords.

Many people like to find fault with some of the keywords. A common one is 準 (semi-). Most people know this kanji from the compound 準備　(prepare) and want to associate the character with something having to do with preparation. But when you think about it, "prepare" is a more abstract idea than "semi-" and on top of that, it would quickly get jumbled with other keywords with similar meanings.

So I think that sometimes Heisig chooses a less common meaning for the keyword in order to avoid confusion. With all the rice, and sprouts and wheat flying around in the book, it's very helpful to associate 米 with America.

Knowing the meanings of individual kanji is hardly useless. It helps to figure out the meanings of compounds and remember them afterwards. This even works in spoken Japanese. The first time I ever heard the word 血液型, I knew what it meant because I knew that けつ could mean blood, えき could mean liquid, and かた could mean type. Another time, I heard someone use the word とうにょうびょう and from the context, I instantly guessed that the word meant "diabetes" because とう can mean sugar, にょう can mean urine, and びょう can mean illness.


The 漢字検定 usually involves questions that require an understanding of the characters' individual meanings. For example (an actual exercise), of the following kanji, which compounds are made of characters with opposite meanings, and which ones of characters with similar meanings?:
天地　　細大　　機器　　言語　　寒暑　　絵画　　軽重　　永遠　　苦楽　　岩石