I never found Kyoto girls any different from girls elsewhere in terms of appearance, they do have a reputation for being more feminine though (a huge part of that is Kyoto accent). Maybe bodhi is going after the maiko...

I think I remember hearing that Kyoto schoolgirls have, on average, the short skirts in Japan, but that might have been Nara.

Asriel Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:btw, did anyone else realise that those low tables actually have holes under them?? Like, to put your legs in. So, it's exactly like a normal table but lower!! i thought everyone had to sit cross legged before...

a ho ho ho...
My dear, dear IceCream. This is not at all places. If you're referring to restaurants, I have been to more places where you sit on the floor than those that have the hole in the ground. I don't know any statistics of what is more common, but no...there are definitely places where you DO sit like that.

Indeed. The izakaya I went to last Friday didn't have holes. I think only cheaper places have holes since they are less authentic. You're supposed to sit seiza btw, not cross legged.

I think the seating just depends on what style they're going for. In Tokyo I haven't seen the floor seating that much. There's sometimes a choice though.

My friend on visiting izakaya in Tokyo: "The Japanese places in London are more Japanese than here."
Me: "...."

Everyone is supposed to do it. Men can get often away with sitting improperly, but women are held to a higher standard.

Then again, no one expects foreigners to be able to do it since it's very hard even for most Japanese people to sit seiza for very long.

congrats icecream
What kind of program are you enrolled in? phd? 5 years is a long time.

IceCream Wrote:there's something i really wanna know about Kyoto.
WHEN WILL IT STOP RAINING!?!? i am so lazy in the rain, hardly seen anything and theres so much to see T_T

I can't believe I forgot how much it rains in Japan. It like Seattle or somin over there. So you'll just have to get used to it. Just remember, when in doubt, the clear umbrella is yours.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Everyone is supposed to do it. Men can get often away with sitting improperly, but women are held to a higher standard.

Heh, the standard can't be that high. I almost never see anybody in seiza when I go out, and none of my college friends ever use it unless we're at some kind of formal event. And even then, things tend to loosen up once the alcohol starts flowing. And if it's just somewhere like an Izakaya, any semblance of formality gets thrown out the window in favor of a bunch of drunk guys sprawled out all over the mats.

Of course, that's college. And Osaka.

And men, right? I don't think I've ever seen a woman sitting cross-legged. Men do it all the time but I think it's considered pretty crude if a woman were to do it.

@Mcjon: of course many people don't bother, but it's still considered somewhat rude, especially if you don't at least start out in seiza for a few minutes. It's like having your elbows on the table.

I had a nomikai with my coworkers last Friday and the three women in the group sat seiza the entire time we were there (~4 hours). I only bother with seiza when in formal settings or when eating from shared dishes, since I find it easier to eat and reach with the elevation seiza gives you (especially useful for nabe).

Women generally sit seiza, or, maybe just as commonly, they put their legs off to one side and sit sort of sideways on their butt. I have seen girls sit cross legged btw, but it's not so common.

I have a hole in the floor for sitting in my old-ass giant Japanese house. I'm moving, however, to a better location in just three weeks. No more big ass Japanese house, sadly, but the convenience factor will be way higher. My new apartment shall have one tatami room, but no hole.

It'll be nice to be right in the center of Kyoto city!

thistime Wrote:And men, right? I don't think I've ever seen a woman sitting cross-legged. Men do it all the time but I think it's considered pretty crude if a woman were to do it.

Thinking about it, you're right, I barely ever see women sitting cross-legged. But it's usually not seiza, either, at least not by the time I'm bored or drunk enough to be taking note of how people are sitting.

I'd have to say the most common sitting posture I've seen for women would be sort of like seiza, except instead of sitting on them, they have their legs off to the side.

But again, the crowd I run with probably doesn't really care that much about traditional Japanese manners. I'm sure it's different with "real" adults.

Sounds like this is your first time to Japan Icecream? I didn't realize you were a girl.
Out of curiosity, do you find your self massively under dressed when out and about compared to Japanese girls? And have you noticed that EVERYONE wears skirts here (even some guys are now...)? I'm going to miss that when I go back =(.

And ya, this rain blows, I'm in Osaka so I understand your predicament well.

vix86 Wrote:Out of curiosity, do you find your self massively under dressed when out and about compared to Japanese girls?

One of my Japanese friends is a girl from Osaka. She went to college for a year in America. She always dressed up really nice for class every day, but people kept asking her if she was going to a party after class, or if she had a date or something. She said that she eventually stopped wearing nice clothes out of peer pressure, lol.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Everyone is supposed to do it. Men can get often away with sitting improperly, but women are held to a higher standard.

Then again, no one expects foreigners to be able to do it since it's very hard even for most Japanese people to sit seiza for very long.

I have 18 inch calves. My rear is 3 inches above my heels no matter what (made shooting the rifle in the high kneeling position very difficult with any accuracy to boot). Sitting seiza just puts tremendous strain on my knees because of that.

Still, at the izakaya I would do it for a few minutes before the other guests offer the suggestion to sit more comfortably. Helps cover the politeness issue I guess.

vix86 Wrote:Out of curiosity, do you find your self massively under dressed when out and about compared to Japanese girls?

Ohhhhhh yes! But most of the time I don't care much.
Often I can't buy clothes and definitely not shoes here in Japan anyways, because my shoe size doesn't exist and trousers are too short etc.

And yes, all my female coworkers wear skirts at work, I'm the only one in trousers (most of the time XD)

IceCream Wrote:and i wanna get drunk & try to speak japanese!! im staying near Kyoto Station, so somewhere fairly close would be nice. somewhere good to go on my own, but not an old man bar! If anyone knows anywhere, tyty!! ：）

I've never been able to find any half-decent bars near Kyoto station. There are izakaya and stuff... but bars? In my opinion, the Kiyamachi, Kawaramachi, Sanjo, Shijo area is the best for bars. Nevertheless, I'm sure there are at least one or two acceptable bars near Kyoto station.

Though, the first couple of streets between Kiyamachi and Kawaramachi next to Shijo are brothels, so stay away from those two, haha. It's not like they're super-dangerous, but walking down them would be pretty awkward. Anyplace else in that area is fine.

If you ever want a drinking buddy, let me know, haha. I feel like I keep going to the same ten bars over and over again, so I've been wanting to find more.

IceCream Wrote:(feel free to bring along some hot japanese guys lol)

Too bad that Kyoto is too far away from here ;o;
Can you send some ikemen over? ;P

Haha. I wonder if I have any hot Japanese male friends? I know a guy that's recently single and people say he's cute... but, actually, I'm also friends with the girl he recently broke up with, so I'm not sure I should be setting him up with people or she'll get angry, haha. He does seem to like foreign women.

Actually, one of my favorite bars is Ishimaru Shoten, a small place on Kiyamachi that plays a lot of gypsy jazz, and it's one of my favorites for meeting Japanese people. Girls say the bartender is hot, haha. He's got kinda a long hair thing going on. Last I checked he was single! He also barely speaks a word of English, but seems to like talking to foreigners, so he's a good guy to hang around.

Even were I a woman, and were I attracted to him, I'm not sure I'd date a bartender, haha.

I seem to actually temporarily be cut off from the city. I live technically in the city, but there's no train station in the north part where I live so I drive in. But, there was a landslide due to the rain last night, so I can't take that road into the city. The problem is that the only other roads into the city from up here are from Sonobe or Kameoka: meaning, what normally is a short trip has now turned into a two hour trip. It's about an hour to Sonobe, and then an hour on the highway into Kyoto.

Sources tell me that it will take almost a month to fix the road, it's pretty crappy. I'm moving in two weeks, so I don't have to wait quite that long, but until then I guess I'll barely be able to go into the city. I might take the trek out for the Gion Matsuri this weekend, not sure yet. I went last year, so I could take it or leave it, haha.

So, in short, I'm not around tonight! I should have phrased it thus: if you ever want a drinking buddy, two weeks from now, let me know.

Asriel Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:btw, did anyone else realise that those low tables actually have holes under them?? Like, to put your legs in. So, it's exactly like a normal table but lower!! i thought everyone had to sit cross legged before...

a ho ho ho...
My dear, dear IceCream. This is not at all places. If you're referring to restaurants, I have been to more places where you sit on the floor than those that have the hole in the ground. I don't know any statistics of what is more common, but no...there are definitely places where you DO sit like that.

This made me remember how I also used to struggle to describe "those low tables with the hole in the ground under them".

They're called "horigotatsu"!

Sorry to be pedantic... but this word will come in handy.

There's a really cool place called A's Bar that I'm unable to give you directions to... it's kind of near San-jo. It's really good for meeting people cos it just has 3 big tables, so everyone has to sit together. I met a hot guy there once, too - I was quite into him until his friend told me that he was married, and he said "but it's ok, my wife's visiting her family in Kagoshima."

It's also worth checking out the Irish Pubs, I like field. I think people in "foreign" bars are a little more open to talking to foreigners.

jofiddle Wrote:It's also worth checking out the Irish Pubs, I like field.

I like lamp.

Note that, a lot of bars, including the one I just mentioned, are really hard to find on your own! There are SO many in that area, and a lot of them won't show up on google maps or anything like that.

I've heard that, "with enough practice", one can get to the point where one can sit seiza basically indefinitely. This never made any physiological sense to me. The problem for me is mostly a matter of reduced circulation, and it's hard for me to envision a plausible physiological adaptation (from a lot of seiza sitting "practice") that would eliminate this problem.

BTW, I did a very quick search to see if the prevalence of "deep vein thrombosis" was higher in Japan than elsewhere. The practice of seiza (it seems to me) would increase the risk of it considerably, but I did not find anything. Pretty surprising. Maybe there's something to this idea of "seiza practice", even though it still does not make any sense to me.

vix86 Wrote:Sounds like this is your first time to Japan Icecream? I didn't realize you were a girl.
Out of curiosity, do you find your self massively under dressed when out and about compared to Japanese girls? And have you noticed that EVERYONE wears skirts here (even some guys are now...)? I'm going to miss that when I go back =(.

And ya, this rain blows, I'm in Osaka so I understand your predicament well.

Not a girl here, but I've had the opposite experience. I ended up overdressing, looking like a businessman, and attracting more attention than I normally would when I had to go with my girlfriend to her college to collect some stuff (where I was the only white person in the entire lecture hall/cafeteria, eep).

When I come home to England it definitely feels shabby fashion wise. Not helped by the fact that I'm in a sciences faculty. (the one girl who seems particularly well dressed is....Japanese)

Pigs and Whistles just east of Kamogawa river on Sanjou is fun. Though I haven't been there in a while. It's a half Japanese/ half foreigners from Kyoto University crowd. Did you enjoy Gion Matsuri?

Gion, btw, is one of the best places ever. Been there twice.