Asriel Wrote:Yep, this is exactly what I do. On a daily basis. You pretty much have me summed up. I am such a dull person that the only conversation I can strike up is how people screw up their stroke order.
Actually, a lot of Japanese people I talk to are interested in language learning. My classes are in the "international building," so where else are they going to go for their "language partners?" So naturally, the concept of learning kanji comes up. So of course, everyone has an anecdote or two like this.

What else do you expect me to assume from your first though? I'm sorry but I find that sort of thing pathetic. But yes on the second paragraph, then we are in agreement. Though I already said in my post how I like to talk about stories, and I don't mind doing so, so long as the other party is interested, but I find that most of the time this isn't the case, so I'm merely giving a few cents to the OP and other people out there. I already said this in my post. But I feel that, in most general casual conversations when I see friends talk to Japanese people about kanji or whatever, it's just stupid. Talk about something interesting, like etymology.

Asriel Wrote:This is actually quite the opposite of what oricle said. Oricle said they would be impressed if someone spelled "appoggiatura" correctly, or even knew what it was. I surely don't know. You, on the other hand, are just like "oh cool, whatever, big woop."

Perhaps there was sarcasm in the post, but even without it, my opinion doesn't change. You can't deny that it is useless. And, to me anyway, it's about as annoying as that starwars nerd that tries to distinguish between the software used in R2D2 in Starwars 1 with the software used in Starwars 2. I commend them for taking the time to do such a thing but it's pointless, either way we'll agree to disagree here.

Asriel Wrote:What I mean ----

Ok yeah I know this.

Asriel Wrote:You clearly missed the part where I said "Anyone foreigner I've met who's at least decently good at Japanese..."

I don't care about that, I was arguing for the sake of this thread, and your first post.

Asriel Wrote:Speaking of かんぺき, it seems that often times I read your posts, you are quite a 癇癖の強い person

Whatever. You should at least be thankful that I have bothered to respond here, it is just that I find it annoying when I see people talk about or brag about unnecessary things, life is too short. Also, as for my 'other posts' I've already given up on several threads before and am not ashamed of doing so. I still have much to learn and need time to gather & process my thoughts + I just can't be bucked sometimes.

liosama Wrote:What else do you expect me to assume from your first though?

That someone started a post like this, and I responded accordingly? It's not difficult.

liosama Wrote:Talk about something interesting, like etymology.
...
it's about as annoying as that starwars nerd that tries to distinguish between the software used in R2D2 in Starwars 1 with the software used in Starwars 2.

R2D2 Software = Boring; Etymology = also boring...
If a Japanese person wanted to talk to me about Etymology vs. Kanji, granted they were interested in both, I would choose kanji. Well, different strokes for different folks, I guess.

liosama Wrote:Whatever. You should at least be thankful that I have bothered to respond here, it is just that I find it annoying when I see people talk about or brag about unnecessary things, life is too short.

haha, most things I talk about are unnecessary. What it comes down to is both parties enjoying the conversation (otherwise it would end, right?).

also: I took back the personal attack, mainly because I couldn't find the posts I was thinking of. You are sarcastic and occasionally belittling, but nothing too terrible.

The posters name is "ocircle", not "oracle" or "oricle".

yudantaiteki Wrote:The posters name is "ocircle", not "oracle" or "oricle".

Serves him right for using a polite form of a geometric shape

Asriel Wrote:What I mean is that once you reach a level of proficiency, Japanese people stop being impressed by your Japanese ability. If you can get by in regular life just like everyone else, nobody is going to shit their pants if you can write 憂鬱. It's only when your level of Japanese is at a lower level where they wouldn't expect you to know something like that, that they will be impressed.

That's not entirely true. People you don't know expect you to not know much of anything simply by the color of your skin. There are plenty of foreigners with decent speaking skill but zero writing ability so even if you talk to them first you can still get a WOW when you write your name down in katakana.

I got at least 3 日本語うまいね and a 凄い、漢字かける from coworkers in the first few days at the marketing company where I was hired on as a Japanese language expert. I did get one seemingly sincere compliment of "Why don't you have an accent, like the other foreigners here?" though.

Showing off superficial kanji "skillz" is equivalent to just whipping your dick out on the table and saying HAHA mines bigger. If some Japanese person came up to me and asked me to spell a difficult word just so they could potentially say NO YOU'RE WRONG, I'd just think they're an ass and I'd probably avoid them. Most Japanese people don't care about kanji any more than I care about the alphabet. If you really had amazing Japanese skill you'd have confidence and not need to prove it by embarrassing random people. This isn't the first time you've bragged about 璧, and people writing it as 完壁 aren't even making an outright mistake. 完壁 is an accepted substitute to avoid 混ぜ書き before unicode and newer JIS standards. It's no more wrong than using 才 (another substitute character) instead of 歳 when talking about age. The more you study kanji the more you realize that it's a giant jumbled mess because of simplification efforts and various poorly designed somewhat incompatible encoding standards (it was a jumbled mess before that too, but it got worse).

Jeez, guys. Two of you have that stupid biáng character for avatars.

Jarvik7 Wrote:I did get one seemingly sincere compliment of "Why don't you have an accent, like the other foreigners here?" though.

Hmm. Because not all foreigners are japanese language experts I guess

What's the difference between 完璧 and 完壁 anyway? I'm an idiot, so I have no clue. I'm smart enough to realize rikaichan is not always 100% right, but it lists both as meaning the exact same thing. Although 完壁 has "iK" listed under it's parts of speech area; I don't remember what that means. Outside of that, the only difference is 完壁 doesn't come up on my IME when I type it.

I'm just curious to know what the difference is.

Just thought I would note that it is possible to surprise and amaze people with the ability to write all the Joyo kanji or more, without being an ass in the slightest.

According to Lang-8, Japanese people seem amazed that I cured my own bacon at home.

I know, that wasn't language or kanji related. But hey, they were impressed!

Offshore Wrote:What's the difference between 完璧 and 完壁 anyway? I'm an idiot, so I have no clue. I'm smart enough to realize rikaichan is not always 100% right, but it lists both as meaning the exact same thing. Although 完壁 has "iK" listed under it's parts of speech area; I don't remember what that means. Outside of that, the only difference is 完壁 doesn't come up on my IME when I type it.

I'm just curious to know what the difference is.

It means "idiomatic kanji" -- I'm not sure exactly how the usage arose, but note that 壁 is on the Jouyou List and 璧 is not. There are some substitutions that were made after the publication of the Touyou List to allow certain words to be written with Touyou kanji (for instance, 憶病 instead of 臆病), and this might be one of those substitutions.

Just a reminder that 璧　is in the new Joyo list. One of the additions to avoid the 混ぜ書き J7 mentioned. [edit: fixed kanji]

I've had the opposite experience - people assuming I knew more than I actually did. My classmates would comment that my writing looked native-like (because it was hastily drawn and used the common short form squiggles.) So they were baffled when I confessed that actually I couldn't read some of my own writing!

You see, I was thrown into Japanese lectures before my language skills were good enough. It was sink or swim. I'd record every lecture and listen to slower versions of them each night. I'd copy notes from the blackboard *exactly* as written, then figure out the unfamiliar kanji scribbles later using the recordings and paper dictionaries. Then I'd rewrite my notes in my more "foreigner-style" handwriting. I felt like a bit of a fraud. haha

Raschaverak Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:I did get one seemingly sincere compliment of "Why don't you have an accent, like the other foreigners here?" though.

Hmm. Because not all foreigners are japanese language experts I guess

Actually it's because the other foreigners are technical or copywriting positions, where as I am a translator.

theasianpleaser Wrote:Edit: I say white foreigners because besides me being white, they are the most I've personally encountered.

That's fine for you, but I'm hoping that we colored people can amaze others with our RTK skills too!

Jarvik7 Wrote:Showing off superficial kanji "skillz" is equivalent to just whipping your dick out on the table and saying HAHA mines bigger.

Yeah, I get kicked out of more Japanese restaurants that way. Last time I tried that was at a table with three old ladies. The first two ladies had a stroke, but the third lady's arm wasn't long enough.

Back on topic, use the praise as positive reinforcement to learn more and improve your abilities. Don't be on the prowl for praise or justification of your current abilities though. People do get wise to it very quickly.

PS: Jarvik7, HAHA, mine's bigger (if we're talking about unusual growths on the neck).

Jarvik7 Wrote:If some Japanese person came up to me and asked me to spell a difficult word just so they could potentially say NO YOU'RE WRONG, I'd just think they're an ass and I'd probably avoid them.

Wow. I like how people are interpreting me as doing this. If in a conversation about difficult kanji comes up, all I'm saying is that 完璧 is an example that I have seen in real life.

Jarvik7 Wrote:This isn't the first time you've bragged about 璧, and people writing it as 完壁 aren't even making an outright mistake.

I would beg to differ. I don't recall writing a post about it before now. Google "site:forum.kanji.koohii.com 璧" seems to agree with me. Perhaps you are referring to: kapalama when he brought it up:

kapalama Wrote:Japanese people have trouble recognizing 完璧's second character is not wall. "Because who needs to know that it is not wall? " is how several Japanese people responded, when I asked them how come they did not know.

Although I'd say it's a long shot from bragging.

If it's in real life that you are referring to, yes, I have mentioned it in conversation. However, I didn't go up to someone and say "HAY WRITE KyANPECKY SO I CAN LAFF AT U!" In discussions with people interested in language learning, the topic of difficult/rare kanji comes up. I mention how I saw 完璧, looked it up, and was surprised. I would hardly classify this as bragging.


So, in a discussion, if someone asks me "Let's talk about kanji?" would it perhaps make anyone more comfortable, would it please anyone more if I responded with "Let's not talk about that. I don't want to come off as a dick"?
Because personally, I'd like to just continue on naturally with the conversation.

This doesn't have anything to do with kanji, but the other day I phoned my internet provider and was using a phone at the office that wouldn't allow me to select menu items so I got transfered to a human after listening to menus for a while.

As soon as I get someone on the phone, I say, "Can you transfer me to the English line?" I prefaced my explanation with "外国人ですが、" and then told them I wanted to cancel my internet service and the guy on the other end of the line was like, "Alright, well, is the English speaker there with you or are you calling on his behalf?" I then had to explain that I was foreigner in question, and we just decided to do it in Japanese, so that I wouldn't have to wait for the English tanto to get on the phone.

He may have just been trying to be polite, but he seemed to backpedal and get a little embarrassed when I was like, "Yeah, you're talking to him."

FutureBlues Wrote:He may have just been trying to be polite, but he seemed to backpedal and get a little embarrassed when I was like, "Yeah, you're talking to him."

Reminds me a bit of this:
http://www.joeisjapanese.com/

yudantaiteki Wrote:It means "idiomatic kanji" -- I'm not sure exactly how the usage arose, but note that 壁 is on the Jouyou List and 璧 is not. There are some substitutions that were made after the publication of the Touyou List to allow certain words to be written with Touyou kanji (for instance, 憶病 instead of 臆病), and this might be one of those substitutions.

No. iK means irregular Kanji. This means that it's not the normal or official way to write the word. Japanese teachers and dictionaries would probably consider it an error.

Asriel Wrote:If it's in real life that you are referring to, yes, I have mentioned it in conversation. However, I didn't go up to someone and say "HAY WRITE KyANPECKY SO I CAN LAFF AT U!" In discussions with people interested in language learning, the topic of difficult/rare kanji comes up. I mention how I saw 完璧, looked it up, and was surprised. I would hardly classify this as bragging.

Nijuro Wrote:Jeez, guys. Two of you have that stupid biáng character for avatars.

My avatar's dad can beat up your avatar's dad.

Asriel: then you may want to reread your original post, because it is blatantly suggesting for people to do HAWHAW behavior, hence everyone's reaction.

zanzou Wrote:Reminds me a bit of this:
http://www.joeisjapanese.com/

I'm..... itching...... to...... pick...... on...... his........ accent........

Jarvik7 Wrote:Asriel: then you may want to reread your original post, because it is blatantly suggesting for people to do HAWHAW behavior, hence everyone's reaction.

point taken. post changed

Oh wait, I do have an "amazed" story. But I'm pretty sure it's a 上手ですね story.

I checked into the hostel and the questionnaire asked me for my destination. I was traveling to Osaka next. But I don't like writing "Osaka," because I keep thinking of "Oosaka." But "Oosaka" looks funny. (Which by itself is weird, because I'm totally down with writing "Tokyo" and "Toukyou" looks odd.) It's kind like the dilemma I get when I talk with local Street Fighter 4 players and I want to say さくら the right way, but they don't understand me, so I say sa-KOO-rah and they get it. Same with まこと and ma-KOH-TOE.

So I wrote 大阪 and the hostel lady remarked "Wow, you have pretty good writing." I wanted to tell her that I still suck at everything else in Japanese but that would be weird.

Sometimes I just wish I wrote "Osaka" so that people would have low expectations of me.

kainzero Wrote:Oh wait, I do have an "amazed" story. But I'm pretty sure it's a 上手ですね story.

I checked into the hostel and the questionnaire asked me for my destination. I was traveling to Osaka next. But I don't like writing "Osaka," because I keep thinking of "Oosaka." But "Oosaka" looks funny. (Which by itself is weird, because I'm totally down with writing "Tokyo" and "Toukyou" looks odd.) It's kind like the dilemma I get when I talk with local Street Fighter 4 players and I want to say さくら the right way, but they don't understand me, so I say sa-KOO-rah and they get it. Same with まこと and ma-KOH-TOE.

So I wrote 大阪 and the hostel lady remarked "Wow, you have pretty good writing." I wanted to tell her that I still suck at everything else in Japanese but that would be weird.

Sometimes I just wish I wrote "Osaka" so that people would have low expectations of me.

I had a similar story. When I told a japanese person I can write kanji, she was like you can WRITE KANJI? lol I seriously don't take any polite comments seriously. Unless it's really meant to be what is meant. If I could read 4000+ kanji. Basically having the ability to read science,philosophy,fantasy,political,history books that japanese people can't read fully well(well people in my age group, college students 21+. I know a lot of people in my age group who don't even read a book every, I assume japanese students are the same. Yes they read but out of interest, a lot don't). Then I would take the compliment well in my mind. But at the moment, still not the best I can be at the language.