I find that parallel text is unnecessary, sure it helps save time when one already has achieved natural listening but I think if one spends too much time looking for parallel text and audio to match it may be a hindrance... I know I spent a few months looking for parallel text for German and wasted time that could have been spent L-R.

Granted, I haven't attempted L-R since way back when I was a beginner so I guess I would be willing to give it another try using only Japanese and English hardcopies. I'm just hoping there's enough suitable Japanese audio available. How many hours would be needed? 50? 100?

Using Harry Potter 1+2 , Natsume novels and the Dazai novels that would be nearing 100 hours right there.

sheetz Wrote:Using Harry Potter 1+2 , Natsume novels and the Dazai novels that would be nearing 100 hours right there.

Is there audio (I know translations are available for some books) for Natsume's works?

They're all in the "List of Free Audiobooks" thread.

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=752

There's audio for Botchan, Sanshiro, Kusamakura (Three Cornered World), Kokoro, and I am a Cat. For Dazai there's audio for "The Setting Sun" and "No Longer Human."

Anyone in Japan should be able to find Harry Potter at Book Off for 100 yen. I got the first two books for 200 yen.

Soseki Natsume books were written just over 100 years ago so I worry the language may be a bit strange. But I have never read his work so I have no idea.

Does anyone have any experience with his work.

I have another question. How do I know if I am in the right place? By that I mean when I am reading I always feel like I am ahead of the speaker, but I have no way of knowing since I don't understand the language.

@Lyulf, that really depends on many things. Have you read the book before starting L-R? It's very important that you do, for it will help you find your place in the beginnings of L-R. Second, have you listened to the audio by itself? If not it will be hard for you to get used to the speakers rythym. I didn't know any Japanese vocabulary before starting so I was in the same boat as you three weeks ago.

Once you start picking vocabulary you'll start to find your place easier. For now you must get by with Names and loan words.

Lyulf Wrote:I have another question. How do I know if I am in the right place? By that I mean when I am reading I always feel like I am ahead of the speaker, but I have no way of knowing since I don't understand the language.

I assume you mean readingL1/listeningL2 ?

For HP, I've noticed that the Japaneses version is a bit longer winded than the English one. At the same time, I read much faster in English then the Japanese audio. So yeah, I'm always ahead by a sentence or two. I read a little ahead and listen to the instant translation.

I imagine it's a mess if you are a beginner. However, it should become easier as you pick up more common words.

You can also listen for indicators. For example, (in HP) they start many sentences with Dursley, Private Drive, Harry Potter, Uncle Vernon, Aunt Petunia, etc.

Also, (in HP) there are a lot of loan words (aside from the one's I mentioned), so you can use those as markers as well.

digitlhand Wrote:@Lyulf, that really depends on many things. Have you read the book before starting L-R? It's very important that you do, for it will help you find your place in the beginnings of L-R. Second, have you listened to the audio by itself? If not it will be hard for you to get used to the speakers rythym. I didn't know any Japanese vocabulary before starting so I was in the same boat as you three weeks ago.

Once you start picking vocabulary you'll start to find your place easier. For now you must get by with Names and loan words.

I was just testing this method out with French earlier today. I just ordered the first and second HP book from amazon. For French I could recognize some words so I could align myself with the audio, but I was wondering if I could do the same with Japanese

oregum Wrote:

Lyulf Wrote:I have another question. How do I know if I am in the right place? By that I mean when I am reading I always feel like I am ahead of the speaker, but I have no way of knowing since I don't understand the language.

I assume you mean readingL1/listeningL2 ?

For HP, I've noticed that the Japaneses version is a bit longer winded than the English one. At the same time, I read much faster in English then the Japanese audio. So yeah, I'm always ahead by a sentence or two. I read a little ahead and listen to the instant translation.

I imagine it's a mess if you are a beginner. However, it should become easier as you pick up more common words.

You can also listen for indicators. For example, (in HP) they start many sentences with Dursley, Private Drive, Harry Potter, Uncle Vernon, Aunt Petunia, etc.

Also, (in HP) there are a lot of loan words (aside from the one's I mentioned), so you can use those as markers as well.

Thank you for the help I will keep this in mind when I get the books. I am first going to finish Tae Kim before I dig into this method. That way I will have a basic understanding of Japanese grammar. One last thing where the heck can I find the audio book for the first two HP books?

Edit: The only thing I am worried about is keeping up with the speaker. My problem is that I read to fast, and when I have to slow down I get frustrated.

oregum Wrote:Soseki Natsume books were written just over 100 years ago so I worry the language may be a bit strange. But I have never read his work so I have no idea.

Does anyone have any experience with his work.

I haven't read any of them yet, but I suspect some of the kanji usage is different. Still, his works are standard curriculum in schools so they are something natives will know.

Incidently, I just updated the Free Audiobooks Wiki so that there are now two more Natsume novels (門/The Gate, それから/And Then). Also I think I fixed all the dead links.

Well I guess that settles it. I'm officially on the L-R band wagon.

Today was day 7 using L-R and I'm seeing very good results. The first day I could barely keep up with audio to HP. The next day, the pace seemed just right. Now I'm able to understand a very large chunk of whats going on.

I expect that when I finish HP1+2, I will be able to understand 99% of HP3-7 on first listen (even though the audiobooks don't exist). Crossing my fingers and hoping it's gonna be time well spent.

If everything goes well, the plan is HP1&2, followed by Natusme's longest works.

oregum Wrote:Well I guess that settles it. I'm officially on the L-R band wagon.
Today was day 7 using L-R and I'm seeing very good results. The first day I could barely keep up with audio to HP. The next day, the pace seemed just right. Now I'm able to understand a very large chunk of whats going on.

I too am on the wagon! Day five done and quite happy with my progress. Since I have been studying Japanese for a while, I know many words, but not really how to employ said words. Hearing the words in context is really fun and enlightening. Also I hear words that I know, but have almost forgotten.

Lyulf Wrote:One last thing where the heck can I find the audio book for the first two HP books?

If you're looking for them in Japanese- if you were to look up the name of the book in romaji on a torrent site, you "might" have some success.

1- Harry Potter to kenja no ishi
2- Harry Potter to himitsu no heya

sheetz Wrote:

oregum Wrote:Soseki Natsume books were written just over 100 years ago so I worry the language may be a bit strange. But I have never read his work so I have no idea.

Does anyone have any experience with his work.

I haven't read any of them yet, but I suspect some of the kanji usage is different. Still, his works are standard curriculum in schools so they are something natives will know.

Shakespeare's on the standard curriculum for UK schools but I wouldn't suggest it to a second-language learner :-) I would worry less about kanji usage and more about possible differences of vocabulary and grammatical style.

magamo, 2009 on Soseki and Mishima:

Quote:They may not be the ideal authors to learn contemporary Japanese, but if you like literature, you should read them. I think the best material is the one you want to read.

That said, obviously I'm not the most reliable Japanese when it comes to Japanese literature and language learning. I think quite a few people would say that their Japanese are not the best examples for beginners. So you might want to read simpler, shorter, and more recent ones.

My personal rule of thumb is "avoid prewar texts". Given where you seem to be currently, I'd suggest going along with that unless you already had a burning desire to read Soseki (in which case follow your enthusiasm, cautiously :-))

Natsume Souseki isn't comparable to Shakespeare. I'm reading Kokoro, which does use some prewar kana and old kanji, but vast majority of the language is fine. It's more like reading Agatha Christie than Charles Dickens.

Quote:I was wondering if I could do the same with Japanese

Yes, it's how I've been able to learn Japanese so far.

Quote:The only thing I am worried about is keeping up with the speaker. My problem is that I read to fast, and when I have to slow down I get frustrated.

When I read the English text, I use a bookmark to show myself where I am in the book. It serves two functions, A) it helps one read much faster, B) Keeps me focused on the text I'm listening to, and keeps me from reading ahead.

Literature from around that time period isn't at all comparable to the difference between Old English, Middle English, and Modern English. Reading works by authors like Mishima is no problem whatsoever for native speakers; there may be a few archaisms, but they're still easy to understand in the context. Kanji usage is more complex than modern writing, but furigana is provided in all cases where the publishers believe that the average Japanese reader would not know it.

However, I wouldn't suggest using most of that time period's literature as reading practice unless you're quite advanced. The grammar is definitely comprehensible for intermediate students, but the vocabulary used by a lot of those authors would slaughter most foreigners.

Yeah, Shakespeare was over-egging it (although he is still considered to be Modern English, not Middle or Old, incidentally).

I just think of reading early 20th century Japanese lit as reading a slightly different Japanese dialect. It may have some differences with contemporary Japanese, but it shouldn't take very long to adjust.

I have to agree with sheetz. When I read Lord of the Rings in German and Swedish I didn't have trouble really following along... It's written in a style that's supposed to sound older... One will go through the literature more than once, so any difficulties are usually cleared up by the 2nd or 3rd pass anyways. Authors tend to have a set of vocabulary they like to use.

Hi All,

Intriguing progress reports from all! I've jumped on the bandwagon as the audio and printed material was readily available at my University's library. My questions for now are:

I've read half of the first chapter of HP in Japanese, but, as mentioned by some others, it's much easier to find time to listen to audio alone than it is to do the audio+text parts. The natural result is my reading along with Japanese audio is a fair bit behind my audio listening. I was wondering if perhaps it would be better to listen to the first chapter over and over until I finish reading the first chapter, and then move on to the next chapter, or if it's really best to let the audio listening component go off at its own pace? I recognize there are definite benefits to having the audio always be different and new and have repetition of words in different context, and I'm not pushing the idea of focusing on one chapter at a time, I'm just curious if people have any thoughts or experience with focusing on a smaller segment of audio for a select time and then moving on. Any thoughts?

k.

digitlhand Wrote:I have to agree with sheetz. When I read Lord of the Rings in German and Swedish I didn't have trouble really following along... It's written in a style that's supposed to sound older....

I think the point others are making is not about ability to follow along, but that an older style (or a dialect) isn't ideal material for absolute beginners. Particularly with an audio immersion method. Sheetz is an advanced reader, so she can discern what's nonstandard and adjust to it.

Quote:I think the point others are making is not about ability to follow along, but that an older style (or a dialect) isn't ideal material for absolute beginners. Particularly with an audio immersion method. Sheetz is an advanced reader, so she can discern what's nonstandard and adjust to it.

I guess I agree with this to a certain degree, as I am still trying to find a narrator for the Harry Potter books, even though this media is available.

A lot of people who have done with L-R say that one should start out with easier texts at the beginning. For example, "The Little Prince" is a book often recommended for absolute beginners. Others also suggest learning some basic L2 grammar if your L1 and L2 are very different from one another.

One could then progress to something like "Alice in Wonderland" and then maybe the Harry Potter series. And finally after those are completed one might choose to tackle more hardcore native works. Of course, some people just dive right in. It really depends on one's own level of motivation, I guess.

Some people apparently use the Bible, as well. The Japanese New Testament is available for free here. It uses the New Interconfessional Translation, which I've heard uses pretty contemporary language.

The Jehovah's Witness Japanese Bible can be downloaded here, but I don't know whether or not the language used is suitably modern.