So I've been using Nukemarine's Tae Kim's Grammar deck and to be honest, it's starting to get boring/irritating to do. I like grammar, I do, but when it throws the same thing at me overandoverandoverandover again it's getting on my nerves.

So...is it the consensus that you should/recommend SRSing grammar points and dealing with them that way? Or is just reading everything through a few times okay too? I also have the Dictionary of Basic Grammar book and am considering reading/looking at the deck for that, too.

Tips/tricks on how to make grammar less boring/aggravating? I like my vocab deck so far, it's not too bad. Grammar just is getting annoying.

In my opinion, you don't "have" to do anything, especially if you find it boring. You can easily just read Tae Kim's Grammar Guide and study it in any way you like. Or you can get a grammar book, or a textbook like Genki, and study off of there in a standard manner.

Thank you for your reply...I just was curious because it seems that the consensus here is to SRS the grammar points, etc. I have Tae Kim's on my iTouch, so I just figured reading it in my spare time would be more fun for me. I hope to somehow type/acquire a copy of the DBJG that I can put on my iTouch, too, since it's far more portable.

Any ideas on good grammar apps for the iTouch?

My wife, who has a master's degree in english education, always tells me that people learn things differently. It took me awhile to figure out how I learn language, but I ended up being able to use SRS pretty effectively for grammar. I go through number of stages when learning new grammar.

1: initial learning, understanding explicitly. I'll do this by studying a grammar book.

2: remembering, understanding on contact. I use SRS with a bunch of example sentences for this. Usually I don't bother with translations, as I remember the meaning of the grammar from (1). It takes no less than a week, if I'm studying regularly, sometimes two, for things to sink in. I can pipeline them to some extent though, if I'm in a particularly "learny" mood.

3: exposure. After things stick, I usually start noticing the grammar when reading.

4: production. It takes about 2 months before I'm ready to start speaking with the grammar. I usually try new things with a conversation partner, since they're willing to tell me if I sound stupid. Or like a book (which happens).

That's what works for me. It took me awhile to figure it out. Maybe it will be different for you.

It may be worth noting that many grammar structures are quite easy to search for, since they involve particular words. A quick round on yahoo.co.jp, ja.wikipedia.org, or (my favorite) chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp can yield interesting new sentences.

My personal technique is to simply SRS 2-3 sentences for each grammar point (usually sentences which demonstrate different usages, for example in one case it might be following a verb and in another a na-adjective) and if I feel it needed, I read up on the grammar in Dictionary of Advanced Japanese Grammar. Simple reading up on it once-twice and then SRSing the sentences keeps the stuff in my head. I generally use the Kanzen Master books for the grammar points and example sentences.

Bear in mind though, I'm doing this for JLPT1 grammar, I don't think it would work for a beginner since there's SO much more aspects of each grammatical factor.

I think I'm going to start my own deck, do a sentence (that's understandable on my part, Tae Kim uses waaaaaay too many lengthy kanji compounds that make me go "Oo"), link it to the page of Tae Kim or the page of the BDJG.

SRSing is such a new concept for me that it's hard to get used to. Last time I learned a language (four years in high school, French) we did it the textbook way, etc. So (guiltily) doing Anki makes me feel a bit silly since it's so different. So far it seems to be working, though, since I'm picking up vocab and kanji slowly.

Also I'm doing the core2000 deck from Anki (by Nukemarine), and am slowly immersing myself via manga I've bought (I can understand a few things here and there, and daily I understand more - small increments nonetheless, it's nice). I can't do listening immersion quite yet...I live full-time with my family (just got laid off) and they hate "that weird noise".

I really hope to find my learning style soon to maximize my spare summer (or hopefully few spare weeks until I can get a new job...).

Tobberoth Wrote:My personal technique is to simply SRS 2-3 sentences for each grammar point

This is what I did for JLPT 1. Turned out to work incredibly well in the long run. I hardly need to look up any grammar now

Evil_Dragon Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:My personal technique is to simply SRS 2-3 sentences for each grammar point

This is what I did for JLPT 1. Turned out to work incredibly well in the long run. I hardly need to look up any grammar now

Do you find this works for the JLPT questions where they want you to identify correct verb forms/particles for grammar points, as well as for meaning recognition? (I did all my JLPT2 grammar revision pre-Anki, but I'm thinking about working through the JLPT1 grammar now...)

Well it worked for me, I usually knew the correct answer by heart. As mullr wrote: everybody learns in a different way, but if I were you I'd give it a try. Also try to read a lot if you got the time. Reading kind of enforces what you learn

nohika Wrote:I think I'm going to start my own deck, do a sentence (that's understandable on my part, Tae Kim uses waaaaaay too many lengthy kanji compounds that make me go "Oo"), link it to the page of Tae Kim or the page of the BDJG.

I think making your own deck is the way to go. When I did Tae Kim's I included what I needed to understand each point.

As a rule of thumb I usually add sentences that are not too difficult. In my experience difficult sentences take too long to review, lead to boredom, take much longer to learn, etc.

My system is this:
New vocab, new kanji compounds, new grammar each get (1) point.
If a sentence has 1 of each type, its difficulty is a (3).
Usually (3) is the highest difficulty of sentence that I add.
I aim for (1)s and (2)s.

Everyone is different. Personally, I now think that grammar should only be srs'ed if you are studying for an exam. Otherwise, just learn it in the wild.

chamcham Wrote:Everyone is different. Personally, I now think that grammar should only be srs'ed if you are studying for an exam. Otherwise, just learn it in the wild.

My experience tells me that it's almost impossible for adults to learn grammar of a different language from exposure unless it's unthinkable amounts. People are free to try it, but be ready to make hilarious mistakes which will take ages to weed out.

Tobberoth Wrote:

chamcham Wrote:Everyone is different. Personally, I now think that grammar should only be srs'ed if you are studying for an exam. Otherwise, just learn it in the wild.

My experience tells me that it's almost impossible for adults to learn grammar of a different language from exposure unless it's unthinkable amounts. People are free to try it, but be ready to make hilarious mistakes which will take ages to weed out.

no. That's not what I mean. I read lots of grammar books. But I don't use srs to reinforce them. Instead, I read native material and study grammar as I encounter them in readings.

Tobberoth Wrote:

chamcham Wrote:Everyone is different. Personally, I now think that grammar should only be srs'ed if you are studying for an exam. Otherwise, just learn it in the wild.

My experience tells me that it's almost impossible for adults to learn grammar of a different language from exposure unless it's unthinkable amounts. People are free to try it, but be ready to make hilarious mistakes which will take ages to weed out.

What do you mean? Hearing these sentences it is fairly easy to understand the points of かな and　かしら.

何曜日だったかな
いいのかしら
頼んで良いかな
何時に来るかな

And まで.

五時まで
二時まで
京都まで
今日はここまで

Just a few simple examples...

sikieiki Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:

chamcham Wrote:Everyone is different. Personally, I now think that grammar should only be srs'ed if you are studying for an exam. Otherwise, just learn it in the wild.

My experience tells me that it's almost impossible for adults to learn grammar of a different language from exposure unless it's unthinkable amounts. People are free to try it, but be ready to make hilarious mistakes which will take ages to weed out.

What do you mean? Hearing these sentences it is fairly easy to understand the points of かな and　かしら.

何曜日だったかな
いいのかしら
頼んで良いかな
何時に来るかな

And まで.

五時まで
二時まで
京都まで
今日はここまで

Just a few simple examples...

Yes, very simple examples. How about the difference between -to, -ba, -tara and -nara?

chamcham Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:

chamcham Wrote:Everyone is different. Personally, I now think that grammar should only be srs'ed if you are studying for an exam. Otherwise, just learn it in the wild.

My experience tells me that it's almost impossible for adults to learn grammar of a different language from exposure unless it's unthinkable amounts. People are free to try it, but be ready to make hilarious mistakes which will take ages to weed out.

no. That's not what I mean. I read lots of grammar books. But I don't use srs to reinforce them. Instead, I read native material and study grammar as I encounter them in readings.

Hmm yes, that I can agree with. Unless you have reason to use advanced grammar which rarely comes up, SRSing it might be extreme, but it depends how much exposure you get.

shikieiki:

Quote:Just a few simple examples...

But it's always dangerous to just trust your instinct, because sometimes it's wrong. I have a lot of "I feel like this is the way it works because of my reading" feelings, and sometimes they're right, sometimes they aren't. Of course when you look at very simple and concrete examples like "time word + まで" you don't necessarily need a detailed explanation, and a few example sentences will suffice. But when you get to more complex things like たら vs. ば, は vs. が, ばかり, にしては vs. にしても vs. としては vs. としても etc. then it can help a lot to read some explanations and some constructed example sentences in addition to seeing it "in the wild".

I don't think chamcham's approach is a bad idea if you're not particularly interested in grammar. Coming back to grammar explanations is always a good idea because it reinforces and explains what you're seeing or hearing, but I don't think it's necessary to SRS them.

Tobberoth Wrote:

sikieiki Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:My experience tells me that it's almost impossible for adults to learn grammar of a different language from exposure unless it's unthinkable amounts. People are free to try it, but be ready to make hilarious mistakes which will take ages to weed out.

What do you mean? Hearing these sentences it is fairly easy to understand the points of かな and　かしら.

何曜日だったかな
いいのかしら
頼んで良いかな
何時に来るかな

And まで.

五時まで
二時まで
京都まで
今日はここまで

Just a few simple examples...

Yes, very simple examples. How about the difference between -to, -ba, -tara and -nara?

Once you hear certain phrases a couple of times, you tend to learn which go together.
よろしければ
できれば
すれば

彼にあったら
してったら
行ったら
終わったら

行くなら
雨なら
問題なら

I think one can understand that 'ba', 'tara' and 'nara' convey the same idea fairly easy, and with enough input, decipher which words go with which ending. I am still a beginner and it would certainly be easy to tell that the following are completely wrong.
雨ば
行くば
できなら
よろしけなら

read grammar, 2-3 example sentence per example/basic small sentences to reinforce it, later on you'll be able to understand complex sentences. SRSing it is effective b/c once you read/hear it from a native-source you should be able to understand it well.

sikieiki Wrote:Once you hear certain phrases a couple of times, you tend to learn which go together.
よろしければ
できれば
すれば

彼にあったら
してったら
行ったら
終わったら

行くなら
雨なら
問題なら

I think one can understand that 'ba', 'tara' and 'nara' convey the same idea fairly easy, and with enough input, decipher which words go with which ending. I am still a beginner and it would certainly be easy to tell that the following are completely wrong.
雨ば
行くば
できなら
よろしけなら

You're missing the point, you're talking about making an extremely basic error, but I'm discussing understanding the difference between the structures. Of course 雨ば is incorrect, -ba is a verb conjugation, you don't even need exposure to get that. What I'm talking about is understanding the difference. To stay with that example, the difference between 雨が降ったら、雨が降れば、雨が降ると and 雨が降るなら. How many contexts would you need until you could with certainty explain the difference? How much exposure would you need until you could be completely confident in your choice of expression?