At the end of the day, all these keywords will be replaced by the on-yomi & kun-yomi, and 95% of all these kanji have very good keyword translations, so maybe it's not such a big deal. Also there are many words in Japanese that are painfully difficult to translate with just one English word, and vice-versa. Also there are many times when an English person might use one word to convey a certain meaning, where a Japanese person would use a totally different word to convey the same.

KANJI Wrote:Look up Nelson for the range of uses and meanings of the kanji in question. As I did years ago, I found that comic (not "manga" but the humorous sense) made a good match.

Yes, ideally one-to-one correspondences like RTK frame one would be most helpful. But those are few. Sorry for not elaborating that but I thought it was already evident.

In my previous study of RTK, I usually did so beside a copy of Nelson. I wanted keywords to fit the range of semantic meanings for the kanji being studied. RTK does a pretty good job but is not infallible.

Here is a list of words that use 漫 in the context of aimless, random; involuntary (ie something like "loosely defined").
散漫
漫然
漫談
冗漫
放漫
漫ろに
漫歩

There is only one common word containing 漫 that is related to "comic" (in the humorous sense).
漫才

I consider a keyword good if it helps me guess the meaning of a compound word in context when reading a book or article. Using a keyword of "comic/humorous" for 漫, you will be throuoghly confused the vast majority of times you see it in real life.

"Loose" is probably not optimal either, but at least it's vaguely in the right direction. "Random" might be a little bit better.

"Desultory" (marked by lack of definite plan, regularity, or purpose) is probably about the best we could do.

In using Nelson, you must consider all the entries; not just a few. I trust that more than 10 years ago when I revised this RTK kanji to "comic." it was based on a wide sampling of Nelson, while also mindful of the wide range of meaning of comic in English. My revision may not fit for you; that's fine. I simply responded to the original post that call into question RTK on the matter. I consider "comic" more appropriate than "loose."

I never intended to say that in ACTUAL reading, that that particular kanji meant "comic" and imbued any kanji combinations by the same meaning of comic. Bull whack. My post was made within the context of RTK. RTK is not equivalent to reading kanji.

RTK KEYWORDS are not isomorphic with kanji meanings in actual use. RTK is a stop gap measure within the process of mastering the multiple tasks required for Japanese literacy. RTK KEYWORDS are not literal meanings of kanji; they are memory aids. Words in every language have variable meanings depending on their context. No word has only one exact meaning in every instance of use. This is what makes life so comic!

Christoph Wrote:At the end of the day, all these keywords will be replaced by the on-yomi & kun-yomi, and 95% of all these kanji have very good keyword translations, so maybe it's not such a big deal.

You may be right. Here is a list showing keyword accuracy:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.lang....a82879c4e8

I agree with KANJI and Christoph (and Heisig) that the keywords are sort of "place holders" for yomi and Japanese meanings that I will learn later. But as I'm finding out from my reading, there is a definite advantage to having the keyword be the principal meaning. And another issue, I see little advantage to learning an English word that I don't know just to make a mnemonic device work. After all, the whole point of mnemonics is to use devices you know very well to learn things you don't know. I actually used mnemonics to learn some of the keywords, which seemed like overkill, although it was really interesting.

I used all the RTK1 keywords as is, so I'm stuck, and I'm not going to change my stories at this point. I seem to have persevered anyway. But if I had to do it over again, I'd replace the rare words, and use only real meanings.
An example of getting rid of rare words:

崎(Cape) = Cape
埼(Promontory) = Cape(dirt)
岬(Headland) = Cape(root)

Examples of using real meanings:

乙(Fishguts) = The Second
介(Jammed in) = Mediate
and of course
漫(Loose) = Comic*

*There are 4 (P) entries for Comic and only 1 (P) entry for Rambling in Jim Breen.

leosmith: But as I'm finding out from my reading, there is a definite advantage to having the keyword be the principal meaning. And another issue, I see little advantage to learning an English word that I don't know just to make a mnemonic device work.

I fully agree with that especially about having the keyword as a principal meaning. An important aspect that seems to have escaped our view is the restraint made by the kanji graphic itself. Whatever the keyword is and how it matches Japanese, it must tie together the graphic elements of the kanji. A triangular relationship exists between the graphic, English, and Japanese--each pulling on the other. Minus the graphic, wouldn't we necessarily arrive at a different keyword; that is, if Japanese was not a written language?

Another factor in devising a keyword is frequency of meaning of the original target Japanese. If most meanings for a word are obscure or in disuse, then those related meanings might not warrant being considered. Another factor still is convenience. A particular kanji might be part of a highly frequent compound (a word) whose meaning provides an easy memory prompt.

Example: comic for kanji #830, which I derived from the source word, "manga." Please note that my choice was not "comics" nor "comic book." At the same time, the kanji's graphic elements had to be considered, while considering other meanings of kanji #830.

The final result depends on the relative weights you give to at least the factors above--unity of the graphic elements, range of (relevant) meanings of the target word, and that for the proposed match in English. Then, the convenience or utility for the proposed keyword. Some keywords may have more utility as a memory aid than others.

When someone like Mathew claims using the "actual meaning of the kanji," that is an assumption in itself. What is the actual meaning? There will always be debate on the meaning of a word, for people differ how they give weight to various contexts and factors in the use of the word in question. We have been no exceptions in this regard.

Anyway, agreement seems to be that the keyword "loose" could be reasonably replaced by an alternative. We have had spirited debate about that alternative, whose choice remains an individual matter.

The great thing about this Forum, this website, is that we can become exposed to various alternative choices for keywords, and having choice will likely advance our study. Debate helps refine it. Thank you all for your sharing.

[ファブリス]

James Heisig responds to questions about his choice of kanji meanings
KanjiClinic.com, Reader Response June-August, 2004 :

http://www.kanjiclinic.com/readerresponse22.htm