Arckus Wrote:Well, I may have gotten a bit cocky. After reviewing all the stuff I learnt from Tae Kim so far it's proving difficult to review sentences with kanji that I haven't seen in RTK yet. I may try changing the kanji I don't know to kana for now.

Have you tried using the Tae Kim deck posted on Anki by Nukemarine? It only uses the example sentences from Tae Kim, not from the practice exercises, and so far, the kanji from the deck are fairly easy to remember.

Of course, I'm doing RTK using KO2001 order, so it's possible that I know totally different kanji from you.

smartazjb0y Wrote:

Arckus Wrote:Well, I may have gotten a bit cocky. After reviewing all the stuff I learnt from Tae Kim so far it's proving difficult to review sentences with kanji that I haven't seen in RTK yet. I may try changing the kanji I don't know to kana for now.

Have you tried using the Tae Kim deck posted on Anki by Nukemarine? It only uses the example sentences from Tae Kim, not from the practice exercises, and so far, the kanji from the deck are fairly easy to remember.

Of course, I'm doing RTK using KO2001 order, so it's possible that I know totally different kanji from you.

Yeah that's what I was using, I was just finding it difficult to read kanji I can't write yet. I'm doing a different RTK lite from the shared decks, it's 1000 JLPT2 kanji from heisig I think. I tried Nukemarines RTK lite deck but I was confused about a few things.

1. I couldn't get sentences to show up during reviews.
2. I sorted it by "2K1 number" which I'm guessing is KO2001 order like you said, but the order seemed to be all messed up. As far as I could tell, you ending up learning kanji made up of primitives you don't even know yet, which seems to negate the whole point of Heisig.

If you could explain how to use the deck, I'd give it another try. A lot of the kanji I'm learning from my current deck aren't even showing up in Tae Kim because it's in the original order Thanks.

One more thing, I don't seem to like cloze delete, so I tried downloading the normal version NukeMarine made too, but they both seem to be cloze delete.

Arckus Wrote:Yeah that's what I was using, I was just finding it difficult to read kanji I can't write yet. I'm doing a different RTK lite from the shared decks, it's 1000 JLPT2 kanji from heisig I think. I tried Nukemarines RTK lite deck but I was confused about a few things.

1. I couldn't get sentences to show up during reviews.
2. I sorted it by "2K1 number" which I'm guessing is KO2001 order like you said, but the order seemed to be all messed up. As far as I could tell, you ending up learning kanji made up of primitives you don't even know yet, which seems to negate the whole point of Heisig.

If you could explain how to use the deck, I'd give it another try. A lot of the kanji I'm learning from my current deck aren't even showing up in Tae Kim because it's in the original order Thanks.

One more thing, I don't seem to like cloze delete, so I tried downloading the normal version NukeMarine made too, but they both seem to be cloze delete.

For doing RTK in 2001KO order in Anki, refer to this post: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid100518

I personally just use scripts to get the order on the RevTK site, so I don't have personal experience as to whether or not it works perfectly.

EDIT: Actually, I just found a way to change formats. So, each Cloze card has a fact associated with it, and you can easily change the Cloze card to a Recognition card. The recognition card is the opposite of the Cloze card, so on the fron is the entire sentence with a word/particle highlighted. I guess what you do is read the sentence and try to determine the grammatical function of the highlighted part. To change the cards to Recognition cards, go to "Browse Items," then select all the cards you want to change. Then go to the "Actions" menu at the top, and choose "Change Model." You'll see a line that says "Change Cloze_Production to..." and it's as simple as choosing Recognition, so it reads "Change Cloze_Production to Recognition," and then you're done.

smartazjb0y Wrote:

Arckus Wrote:Yeah that's what I was using, I was just finding it difficult to read kanji I can't write yet. I'm doing a different RTK lite from the shared decks, it's 1000 JLPT2 kanji from heisig I think. I tried Nukemarines RTK lite deck but I was confused about a few things.

1. I couldn't get sentences to show up during reviews.
2. I sorted it by "2K1 number" which I'm guessing is KO2001 order like you said, but the order seemed to be all messed up. As far as I could tell, you ending up learning kanji made up of primitives you don't even know yet, which seems to negate the whole point of Heisig.

If you could explain how to use the deck, I'd give it another try. A lot of the kanji I'm learning from my current deck aren't even showing up in Tae Kim because it's in the original order Thanks.

One more thing, I don't seem to like cloze delete, so I tried downloading the normal version NukeMarine made too, but they both seem to be cloze delete.

For doing RTK in 2001KO order in Anki, refer to this post: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid100518

I personally just use scripts to get the order on the RevTK site, so I don't have personal experience as to whether or not it works perfectly.

EDIT: Actually, I just found a way to change formats. So, each Cloze card has a fact associated with it, and you can easily change the Cloze card to a Recognition card. The recognition card is the opposite of the Cloze card, so on the fron is the entire sentence with a word/particle highlighted. I guess what you do is read the sentence and try to determine the grammatical function of the highlighted part. To change the cards to Recognition cards, go to "Browse Items," then select all the cards you want to change. Then go to the "Actions" menu at the top, and choose "Change Model." You'll see a line that says "Change Cloze_Production to..." and it's as simple as choosing Recognition, so it reads "Change Cloze_Production to Recognition," and then you're done.

*edit* I see now that you're supposed to do RTK lite in the heisig order and not 2001KO order which is why they were all messed up I'm still a little confused though, aren't there going to be important kanji missing that make up other kanji, and how do you figure out which are missing? Or are all the important ones included? (I don't mean the primitives in the book like a walking stick etc which aren't in the anki deck)

I just checked out Nukemarine's thread again and realised it was you who responded to my question about the RTK deck a couple of weeks ago, lol.

Arckus Wrote:*edit* I see now that you're supposed to do RTK lite in the heisig order and not 2001KO order which is why they were all messed up I'm still a little confused though, aren't there going to be important kanji missing that make up other kanji, and how do you figure out which are missing? Or are all the important ones included? (I don't mean the primitives in the book like a walking stick etc which aren't in the anki deck)

I just checked out Nukemarine's thread again and realised it was you who responded to my question about the RTK deck a couple of weeks ago, lol.

I'm not sure what's included in the 2001KO order, but I don't think he put in the kanji that makes up other kanji, but is not part of the 2001KO order. However, if he puts the number of the Kanji in the RTK book, I think it's simple enough to try and find the other kanji in the RTK book. That's what I did. For example, for the kanji "stocks," you use "tree" and "vermilion," but "vermilion" isn't in 2001KO. I knew I hadn't seen it before, so I went back and found it, then added it as an extra. So just try to see if you recognize the parts making up the kanji, and if not, you can always go back and try to find it in the book.

And you're right, I did answer your question in that thread. Strange coinky-dink =P

Groot Wrote:

Quote:Great! One more thing, I was just taking a look at the Tae Kim website and it's confusing. Should I be reading the complete guide or the grammar guide? They seem a lot different and the complete guide looks harder.

Tae Kim's site is impressive, and I certainly admire him for putting so much work into something available for free. But for me, it wasn't the best beginning tool. I used the Genki textbooks and other textbooks to introduce myself to basic Japanese. TK's grammar section seems to presuppose some basic vocabulary, not to mention familiarity with kana. I preferred using a published volume that's been edited professionally. Something like Genki or Hosogawa also comes with audio to help introduce you to the sounds of the language. But such things aren't free.

Just wondering, how did that work out for you, doing Genki first? I'm in the middle of doing RTK, following a guide by Nukemarine, but I also have Genki. I do like learning from textbooks, but I'm not sure where I'd fit that in.

smartazjb0y Wrote:

Arckus Wrote:*edit* I see now that you're supposed to do RTK lite in the heisig order and not 2001KO order which is why they were all messed up I'm still a little confused though, aren't there going to be important kanji missing that make up other kanji, and how do you figure out which are missing? Or are all the important ones included? (I don't mean the primitives in the book like a walking stick etc which aren't in the anki deck)

I just checked out Nukemarine's thread again and realised it was you who responded to my question about the RTK deck a couple of weeks ago, lol.

I'm not sure what's included in the 2001KO order, but I don't think he put in the kanji that makes up other kanji, but is not part of the 2001KO order. However, if he puts the number of the Kanji in the RTK book, I think it's simple enough to try and find the other kanji in the RTK book. That's what I did. For example, for the kanji "stocks," you use "tree" and "vermilion," but "vermilion" isn't in 2001KO. I knew I hadn't seen it before, so I went back and found it, then added it as an extra. So just try to see if you recognize the parts making up the kanji, and if not, you can always go back and try to find it in the book.

And you're right, I did answer your question in that thread. Strange coinky-dink =P

Thanks alot! That's finally cleared things up for me.

smartazjb0y Wrote:Just wondering, how did that work out for you, doing Genki first? I'm in the middle of doing RTK, following a guide by Nukemarine, but I also have Genki. I do like learning from textbooks, but I'm not sure where I'd fit that in.

Genki worked out well for me. It was the first Japanese text I used as a total beginner, and I don't regret it. It's a traditional text, with a dialog, followed by a vocab list, followed by grammar and usage notes, followed by exercises. I also had the workbook and CDs, which helped with writing and listening respectively. The style of the book is rather formal, and it starts with polite speech, but that was OK with me.

Some people find Genki a bit dull, but I thought it was interesting enough. I did skip many of the exercises, especially those that required an in-class "partner," but I read most of the extended readings, especially in volume 2. Some say Genki is not so great for people over 30 (like me), since the dialogs and vocab tend to feature student life. That didn't bother me. Anyone studying Japanese is a student in some sense of the word. Besides, some of the essays in volume 2 have a wider appeal. E.g., there was an interesting essay about Yoko Ono.

By the time I was through Genki 1, I had also started studying other stuff. I took a break from Genki and read "Japanese the Manga Way," which may still be my single favorite Japanese study tool. I highly recommend it if you have any interest in reading manga. It reinforced lots of grammar I'd seen once in Genki. I also finished RTK. Then I read through Tae Kim, and I started SRSing vocab, and I began reading the Dictionary of Basic Grammar. At that point I returned to Genki 2, and I was pleased to see that I knew much of its vocab already, and had studied all its grammar at least once or twice. So I moved thru Genki 2 much faster. I'm still glad I did, though. I need all the grammar review I can get.

Groot Wrote:Genki worked out well for me. It was the first Japanese text I used as a total beginner, and I don't regret it. It's a traditional text, with a dialog, followed by a vocab list, followed by grammar and usage notes, followed by exercises. I also had the workbook and CDs, which helped with writing and listening respectively. The style of the book is rather formal, and it starts with polite speech, but that was OK with me.

Some people find Genki a bit dull, but I thought it was interesting enough. I did skip many of the exercises, especially those that required an in-class "partner," but I read most of the extended readings, especially in volume 2. Some say Genki is not so great for people over 30 (like me), since the dialogs and vocab tend to feature student life. That didn't bother me. Anyone studying Japanese is a student in some sense of the word. Besides, some of the essays in volume 2 have a wider appeal. E.g., there was an interesting essay about Yoko Ono.

By the time I was through Genki 1, I had also started studying other stuff. I took a break from Genki and read "Japanese the Manga Way," which may still be my single favorite Japanese study tool. I highly recommend it if you have any interest in reading manga. It reinforced lots of grammar I'd seen once in Genki. I also finished RTK. Then I read through Tae Kim, and I started SRSing vocab, and I began reading the Dictionary of Basic Grammar. At that point I returned to Genki 2, and I was pleased to see that I knew much of its vocab already, and had studied all its grammar at least once or twice. So I moved thru Genki 2 much faster. I'm still glad I did, though. I need all the grammar review I can get.

That sounds like it could work for me. My main concern right now is grammar. I've been doing Tae Kim, but the explanations are somewhat weird, and maybe it's because it's summer, but I don't think I'm understanding it as well as I could. I've always liked textbook grammar (Not boring for me), so I might finish Tae Kim basic, then do Genki I. I'm not worried about vocab, though, as I can SRS that easily. Thanks!

The biggest benefit for me from RTK is it's time killing feature. Seriously. If you have a lot of free time to kill, you can definitely do it with RTK.

Tell me about it! I've been spending most of the time outside eat,sleep and exercise learning kanji. I can barely do 100 a day along with the review through anki. My rate is only going to be even slower once I get pass the 1000 mark. I really hope the time I spend at this would be worth it because I'm literally using at least 50% of my summer holiday going through this book.

smartazjb0y Wrote:I'm not sure what's included in the 2001KO order, but I don't think he put in the kanji that makes up other kanji, but is not part of the 2001KO order. However, if he puts the number of the Kanji in the RTK book, I think it's simple enough to try and find the other kanji in the RTK book.

Katsuo and Woelpad already listed the extra kanji needed as primitives for RTKLite. (iirc, they did it for both the JLPT2 version of RTKLite (1023 kanji, 91 extra) and the 2001KO version (1110 kanji, ? extra). See this post

If Nukemarine prepared a RTKLite deck, I imagine the extra kanji would be included. If not, the anki deck with RTKLite kanji tags or the above list should save you some time.

btw, I see that Alfonso recently pointed out in that thread that #1113 is missing.

I just tagged kanji in the deck as RTK 1 or 3, KO2k1 Book 1, 2 or 3. In addition, I tagged if the kanji was Jouyou. I think the individual should be savvy enough to unsuspend Kanji that can be used as primitives should they feel it's necessary ie I was too lazy to take extra kanji into account since it wasn't in a usable spreadsheet format.

However, that the kanji in that deck are tagged and have three numbering schemes should help figure out what needs to be unsuspended. It'll also help when adding in the new kanji thanks to the changes of the Jouyou.

smartazjb0y Wrote:That sounds like it could work for me. My main concern right now is grammar. I've been doing Tae Kim, but the explanations are somewhat weird, and maybe it's because it's summer, but I don't think I'm understanding it as well as I could. I've always liked textbook grammar (Not boring for me), so I might finish Tae Kim basic, then do Genki I. I'm not worried about vocab, though, as I can SRS that easily. Thanks!

I may be in the minority here, but I also find Tae Kim's explanations a bit opaque sometimes. I guess I prefer a traditional text. That said, I'm now SRS'ing Tae Kim using Nukemarine's excellent deck, and I'm getting more out of it this time around.

I'm a bit miffed with people saying 'you shouldn't do only RTK and nothing else on the side' as if it will be completely detrimental to your ability to learn Japanese and you'll only end up worse.

Please keep in mind we do not all have the time or the energy to do more than 30 minutes to an hour of this a day (if we're lucky). Some of us would like to spend more time on this, but just can't. It's not always a matter of time, but mostly of energy. You can't learn anything if you're exhausted.

So if I can choose to spend those 30 minutes on one thing or on 5 different things, I prefer finishing the one thing first before moving on to the next. Would I like to do more? Yes, of course. Will I learn Japanese slower than other people who have more free time and energy? Yes, of course. Will it be detrimental to my learning of Japanese in the long run? No, not at all.

Sorry to post this here, I know it's off-topic, but this is the so-manieth thread I've seen this in and I'm getting fed up with it. Give people advice to do other things on the side if you must, but don't make it seem like not doing things on the side will kill them.

Nukemarine Wrote:I just tagged kanji in the deck as RTK 1 or 3, KO2k1 Book 1, 2 or 3. In addition, I tagged if the kanji was Jouyou. I think the individual should be savvy enough to unsuspend Kanji that can be used as primitives should they feel it's necessary ie I was too lazy to take extra kanji into account since it wasn't in a usable spreadsheet format.

However, that the kanji in that deck are tagged and have three numbering schemes should help figure out what needs to be unsuspended. It'll also help when adding in the new kanji thanks to the changes of the Jouyou.

Here's something that's been confusing me a little. I've been trying to do RTK lite using your RTK deck. I set the filter to "RK1 1" so I've been doing the first 555 from 2001KO in Heisig order I guess. Then I plan on doing "RK1 2" after I've done some grammar etc. Is this the right way of doing it? The only thing that bugs me is that "RK1 2" seems to go back to earlier kanji from Heisig that "RK1 1" skips. I'm guessing this is just due to the order being in the original RTK order so there isn't a way around it.

By the way, I just want to say thanks for all the help you've given here on the forums. If it wasn't for your thread on learning japanese, your anki decks and all the other things you've posted, I never would've started learning again. So thanks, and keep up the good work

RTK2 teaches you readings, not new kanji. As far as I know, many don't really like RTK2, and just choose not to use it. If you follow Nukemarine's guide, I believe that you learn many readings when doing the vocab in Core2K6K.

Its pretty obvious why Heisig recommends people to do RTK1 seperately from other Japanese learning. Like I said, RTK1 basically builds up a giant spreadsheet of kanjies in to your brain and gives them all a name (keyword).

There are plenty of similar kanjies with similar meanings and looks, and if you are learning them trough other sources while doing RTK1 you might learn other meanings for the same kanji. This might result in what I would call "double naming". double named kanji might result in confusion when the name conflicts with a new kanji teached later in the book, these are often tried to avoid even in stories and elements/etc to keep the kanjies distinct from each other.

The difference is that after RTK1 you have memorized all the kanjies in the book with a single name. This name is basically the attaching point and location for the kanji and the elements are the pointers to that specific location. Now I don't know for certain, but I would think that after the keyword is strongy attached to the kanji, it is far easier to add new meanings to that specific kanji as they become additional info instead of resulting in double meaning. "This kanjis keyword is X but it also means a,b,c,d and is pronounced 1,2,3,4 and is used in words q,w,e,r,t,y)

Its more than recommendation, and warning. But memory works differently for each person, some might even remember kanjies better if they use them while learning new kanjies trough RTK1. But don't blame RTK method if you find yourself getting confused with kanjies because of double naming.

I love that spelling; kanjies. It makes them seem cute, not scary.

which one is it? kanjis, kanjies? or kanji letters/symbols/marks/pictures?
(using google chrome and it underlines all them with red line and offers Kansas as fix.)

:<

Seiska Wrote:which one is it? kanjis, kanjies? or kanji letters/symbols/marks/pictures?
(using google chrome and it underlines all them with red line and offers Kansas as fix.)

:<

It's just 'kanji' - you don't pluralise it, like most japanese words (since Japanese obviously doesn't have plurals), eg. samurai -> samurai, sushi -> sushi. You only pluralise a few, usually the really common everyday ones that non-Japanese learners/non-Japanophiles use like ninjas, geishas, futons, tsunamis.

Koos83 Wrote:I'm a bit miffed with people saying 'you shouldn't do only RTK and nothing else on the side' as if it will be completely detrimental to your ability to learn Japanese and you'll only end up worse.
-snip-

Don't worry. It's all a matter of how much time you have - I don't see what's wrong with just doing RTK and taking it one step at a time, it's not going to hurt your Japanese at all. If you have the time and are all excited to get into the meat of the language and not just learn characters (as you might well do if you have studied NO japanese at all before) then I can see why you would do it, but it doesn't really make it better than any other method. Everyone works at different paces.

Thanks Tefhel! I agree. Just for the record: I have long since finished RTK and am currently working my way through RTK2 (whenever I have time). I think I'll not add any more this month, though, since I'll be going to Japan for 3 weeks from July 30th, so I probably won't remember any if I keep adding them and not reviewing them. :lol:

And Seiska: Yeah, it's just kanji. I've seen kanjis before, but never kanjies and I honestly thought it looked so cute; I wasn't being sarcastic or condescending or anything. It's a really nice way of spelling it.

Although It's not on topic with the rest of the thread, I thought I'd ask another question because that's all I've been doing here anyway

Going through Tae Kim, I don't feel like I'm fully grasping the sentences, It's a strange feeling. I learn about a particle, see it in a sentence with other words I know, and can understand what it means but just don't get it fully, I can't explain it.

Here's an example: ボブは魚が好きだ
I know this means Bob likes fish, but it feels more like I've just memorized the translation. I know は　and が are linking it together somehow and だ is doing something like making it a fact or statement or something but I can't really explain it in detail and I wouldn't really be able to use the grammar in my own speech. I'm finding it difficult to describe what I mean Oh yeah, and all the grammar explainations and the way he words things are hurting my head. I don't know what things like "conjugations" or "adjectives" are and I'm finding half of the struggle is just understanding what the hell he's talking about.

For those that know what I mean, will I get a better feeling of how the particles etc are making up a sentence once I've seen them more? Am I just over-analyzing this and as long as I know what it means and have a basic jist of how it works, It's ok?

I'm probably just thinking way too much and should stop asking so many questions.

Arckus, if English is not your primary language, I think there are translations into other languages offered.

There's also more than just Tae Kim when it comes to basic grammar. Genki, UBJG, JFE, JFBP, etc can give you the basics but you might miss out on a ready made Anki deck is all.

Nukemarine Wrote:Arckus, if English is not your primary language, I think there are translations into other languages offered.

There's also more than just Tae Kim when it comes to basic grammar. Genki, UBJG, JFE, JFBP, etc can give you the basics but you might miss out on a ready made Anki deck is all.

English is my native language, It's just been a LONG time since I studied any type of grammar I probably never listened when I was studying it in school anyway. I don't need to know the grammar terms to have decent english, I imagine there are a lot of english people who don't know what an adverb or a noun is. It is however making japanese grammar study a little more confusing then it should be. If I don't understand the words he's using to describe the sentence, I'm not gonna understand the sentence either.

I tried Genki and found it incredibly boring. It was all about univerty etc. I might take a look at the others you mentioned but so far I haven't liked what I've seen.