pm215 Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:it certainly seems to be working for ta.

It certainly seems to translate into results on the JLPT vocab test. I'd be interested to see how well it works for the listening, reading and grammar papers...

Quote:I know i already pass some mature cards if i get the reading just slightly wrong

I tend to hit 'pass' anyway if I just got the voicing wrong (sa/za, te/de, that sort of thing), especially for younger cards.

Grammar is probably the thing I'm worried about a bit. B/c unlike reading/listening(You just need to keep reading/listening/srs a lot to get these skills up and running.

It's still hard to use without effort involved. Especially high-level grammar(Advanced).
Grammar is one of those things that are annoying to get good at it. I'd say it's best to worry about learning the language. Then implementing grammar to make your japanese even smoother/better than it is. That's my 2 cents on that.

Ta, so you are using the srs only for exposure?! I don't understand...

ta12121 Wrote:Grammar is one of those things that are annoying to get good at it. I'd say it's best to worry about learning the language. Then implementing grammar to make your japanese even smoother/better than it is. That's my 2 cents on that.

I find that a bit hard to understand -- learning the language *is* learning the grammar, to my way of thinking...

cescoz Wrote:Ta, so you are using the srs only for exposure?! I don't understand...

Don't get me wrong, I have studied grammar. Probably will some more.
Use the srs for a varitey of reasons, production,vocab,sentences in context. All these help with understanding/reading/writing. And of course speaking.

pm215 Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:Grammar is one of those things that are annoying to get good at it. I'd say it's best to worry about learning the language. Then implementing grammar to make your japanese even smoother/better than it is. That's my 2 cents on that.

I find that a bit hard to understand -- learning the language *is* learning the grammar, to my way of thinking...

Not that I don't agree or anything like that. Just saying, let's say you have a sentence, there are several ways of breaking it down. Obviously one is breaking the kanji down/particles/other factors in the sentence you don't get. There is grammar in every sentence, but a lot of times you can't really understand it from the get go because you haven't really heard it from real native-materials yet.

Nukemarine Wrote:That he's using SRS as a reminder of sorts does not invalidate his method.

I agree, but it does change our understanding of his progress. Maybe SRSing this way will level out well in the end. But knowing the reading AND meaning of 15,000 words is a different achievement from knowing the reading OR meaning of 15, 000 words. Ta's not knowing both probably isn't a problem in the long run, but it's confusing or discouraging for people to think he's learning up to twice as much as he is.

yukamina Wrote:

Nukemarine Wrote:That he's using SRS as a reminder of sorts does not invalidate his method.

I agree, but it does change our understanding of his progress. Maybe SRSing this way will level out well in the end. But knowing the reading AND meaning of 15,000 words is a different achievement from knowing the reading OR meaning of 15, 000 words. Ta's not knowing both probably isn't a problem in the long run, but it's confusing or discouraging for people to think he's learning up to twice as much as he is.

True, I'm not learning twice as much. I basically look at each vocab card, say the readings and in my mind (think of what it means) and just look at the answer-side and rate accordingly. I'm doing this with the new addition of monolingual sentences/monolingual look-ups. It's strange but I believe that there is two types of understanding, one in japanese and one in English. A lot of the cards I could easily recognize the reading/meanings without effort, without the need of even translating. I know that this is the way to go if I ever want to become really good in japanese, basically you gotta be understanding j-j instead of j-english stuff.

I think what the confusion about right now is what it means to "rate accordingly."

You're probably at the level where you can look at a word in kanji, have no idea what it means, and still be able to pronounce it. Not with every word, but it happens. How would you rate it? I would personally fail it.

What do you put more emphasis on, reading, meaning, or both? If you know the meaning but not the reading, do you fail it?

I read a lot of texts where I understand everything that's going on, but I can't read it out loud, because I don't know the readings. I wouldn't consider myself to 'know' these words.

I guess it would kind of clear up what you're learning, if we find out how you're learning it.

Asriel Wrote:I think what the confusion about right now is what it means to "rate accordingly."

You're probably at the level where you can look at a word in kanji, have no idea what it means, and still be able to pronounce it. Not with every word, but it happens. How would you rate it? I would personally fail it.

What do you put more emphasis on, reading, meaning, or both? If you know the meaning but not the reading, do you fail it?

I read a lot of texts where I understand everything that's going on, but I can't read it out loud, because I don't know the readings. I wouldn't consider myself to 'know' these words.

I guess it would kind of clear up what you're learning, if we find out how you're learning it.

Wouldn't fail it, but give it a hard rating. I know that it's like a 50,50 thing here. It happens, where I can look at paragraphs of Japanese and understand almost all of it fine. But can't read it smoothly. I would fail it if I had no total idea of what it means/how it's read.
As for the emphasis on meanings/readings. Sometimes there were sentences where I had no idea what it was, even though breaking it down(didn't have a clear meaning in english). I mean understanding it fully. This happened in the beginning of japanese though, where I had little or no immersion. The only immersion I got before I started japanese was watching subtitled anime in English.
After a while of immersion I was noticing that I could understand paragraphs of full japanese without the need of that "inner" translation going off, I had a good understanding of what I was reading.

ta12121 Wrote:

RisuMiso Wrote:Ta did you try the other jlpt2 test sections yet? I'm very interested in seeing how well you do. You did great on the first part.

I'll do the others tomorrow, when I've got more energy. It's late at night over here in canada.

So did you manage to find the time to do the other JLPT2 test papers? (I'm genuinely interested in the results.)

I am also interested to know how can one score in JLPT2 without studying specifically for it, without studying JLPT2 word lists or grammar points, just with immersion, reading and listening (and using Anki).

pm215 Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:

RisuMiso Wrote:Ta did you try the other jlpt2 test sections yet? I'm very interested in seeing how well you do. You did great on the first part.

I'll do the others tomorrow, when I've got more energy. It's late at night over here in canada.

So did you manage to find the time to do the other JLPT2 test papers? (I'm genuinely interested in the results.)

Give me some time, I'll have it done/results up sometime next week.

ta12121 Wrote:Strengths(What I can do at the moment)
-Watch anime(90%+ understanding)
-Dramas/movies(80% understanding)

I'd like to know how your audio comprehension got so good.

Everything seems based around reading and/or recognising the kanji in their written forms; you have no listening deck. Can you talk us through your listening practise?

usis35 Wrote:I am also interested to know how can one score in JLPT2 without studying specifically for it, without studying JLPT2 word lists or grammar points, just with immersion, reading and listening (and using Anki).

Actually I have used JLPT word lists, and I did study tae-kim grammar points. And some more grammar. But after a while It got really boring.
Reading in general helps, someone on this forum said they never study for JLPT level 2 and 1. And they still passed them both with good marks. It just shows that, studying grammar/word lists only won't get you to past these tests. But reading/immersing yourself will help you exceed further, past JLPT tests.

aphasiac Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:Strengths(What I can do at the moment)
-Watch anime(90%+ understanding)
-Dramas/movies(80% understanding)

I'd like to know how your audio comprehension got so good.

Everything seems based around reading and/or recognising the kanji in their written forms; you have no listening deck. Can you talk us through your listening practise?

Listening deck? I had never used those types of stuff. Reason why is, well I didn't need to train those skills(What i mean by those things is that. There are some formats that go from listening(question card) to kanji/kana(answer card). It does train the skills but I prefer kana(question card) to kanji(answer card) for writing vocab/sentences in my production deck.(Also RTK1+3 reviews are in there two, makes my life easier when working with 3 main decks designed for 3 different things. Vocab for reading/listening/understanding. Sentence deck for context/reading/understanding. Production for sole purpose of just writing from memory(kana to kanji).
I'd say it's vocab/listening a lot. I know that might seem like a general thing, but how would one improve listening skills without listening?
Having audio is good for your decks, as if you hear it anywhere else your definitely going to remember it/understand it right from the get go.
When I gave the 90%,80%. That's what I've felt I could understand, meaning for the 90% I can pretty much understand all of it, some things get by me still but overall I can understand almost all of it. 80% for drama's refer to, I can understand a good solid portion of it, still a good amount get's by. But the gap is closing for that for me. Vocab deck is saving me so much trouble. As what I srs I can hear and recongize instantly.
Also if you want to get a better grasp of understanding of animes/movies. Try monolingual, with full kanji sentences. Those are the best, as they make you want to understand japanese in it's full form. I did start this in the beginning of my japanese studies but I felt I couldn't understand it well. What happen is that, after a while. Got more accustomed to japanese, it becomes easier. That's the key factor in this, adaption. I also listened to japanese as my main media, instead of an english show, japanese tv, instead of regular music, j-music. Instead of english OP for Windows 7, full japanese one. You gotta force yourself to understand, meaning you can't always rely on the English translation. My media nowadays is 80%+ japanese. I don't like watching english stuff(not that i mean it, but for the immersion factor I need to keep japanese up and strong)

But one reason why is vocab/a lot of kanji reading/kanji srsing. Those are the most things I do daily. Even though I still think I suck horribly, I feel it due time, I'll be owning japanese(meaning fluency) if I keep at it.

You know, I just gotta say this. The reason why I've been improving a lot isn't to the amount of srsing I do, or immersion or reading(well it is but....) my point is that, well I spend a lot of time doing japanese everyday. Even when I was in school this year, I did a lot of japanese learning.

What's the scary part is that, i've been noticing I can easily speak a bit smoother. Haven't really practiced even. Plus I've been noticing that when it comes to readings, even if it's a bit odd. I can recognize and say it right in context. It's starting to become that, the more used japanese I get. The more easier it is to understand/read it.
One thing I want to point out, even doing all these srs reps/breaking down/understanding/immersing. I feel it isn't enough, I keep thinking that I should be doing more.
I'll break it down for you guys
Immersion:could do it in every bit of the day, but I think certain stuff comes in there way of this. Like annoying my family with japanese stuff in the background. So can't go any further with immersion indoors. But outdoors I need to maintain it as well.(i.e. get books/mp3 and I'm set for outside).
Writing:I do an average of every of 200 reps for writing. Plus sometimes add 20-100 new cards for writing deck(production deck). I feel I should do more for this.
Reading: I do read news stuff,etc(random stuff I'm interested as well). But I feel if I found a way to work subs2srs to news/music I'd be setting myself to understand all those things with ease after using subs2srs. If it can be geared towards it, that is.
Speaking: I feel that the more I immerse the easier to becomes to talk, obviously makes sense. I think I just need to get a language exchange partner(male, because I don't want to start talking with a girl accent)
And just keep talking and talking. (Basically get my confidence in conversational japanese,casual,formal,informal as much as possible,)

Outside of these things, not too sure what else I can do, I think it just comes down to putting in more time and the results should come. Or at least I hope it will.

I could go over every single grammar point, with 1 sentence. Ranging from basic,intermediate and then advance grammar. Maybe this will give me more edge in my learning. Just gotta find a way of doing it efficiently and effectively.

ta12121 Wrote:someone on this forum said they never study for JLPT level 2 and 1. And they still passed them both with good marks. It just shows that, studying grammar/word lists only won't get you to past these tests.

This is faulty logic. What it shows is that it's possible to pass JLPT without studying aimed at it in particular (which is kind of obvious). It doesn't say anything at all about whether pure study of grammar and word lists will or won't get you to pass those tests.
(And it certainly doesn't say anything about whether a little targeted study on top of a broader programme of study would be a good or bad idea, which would be slightly less of a straw man to aim at...)

pm215 Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:someone on this forum said they never study for JLPT level 2 and 1. And they still passed them both with good marks. It just shows that, studying grammar/word lists only won't get you to past these tests.

This is faulty logic. What it shows is that it's possible to pass JLPT without studying aimed at it in particular (which is kind of obvious). It doesn't say anything at all about whether pure study of grammar and word lists will or won't get you to pass those tests.
(And it certainly doesn't say anything about whether a little targeted study on top of a broader programme of study would be a good or bad idea, which would be slightly less of a straw man to aim at...)

ahh didn't mean it like that. Should have phrased it differently. Your right about, just studying pure lists/grammar would not gear someone to pass JLPT 2 or 1. I believe outside grammar/lists, one must have to immerse, listen, read,write,speak. All these general things help the person improve in japanese ability. And if your ability is high enough, JLPT 2 and 1 shouldn't be difficult to pass.

Also on another note, can't find the quote. But I'll just paraphrase it my way.

Languages are simple to learn, but the simplest stuff never get done.

ta12121 Wrote:

pm215 Wrote:So did you manage to find the time to do the other JLPT2 test papers? (I'm genuinely interested in the results.)

Give me some time, I'll have it done/results up sometime next week.

Thanks. (PS: don't forget to time yourself on the reading/grammar paper, it's much easier if you don't give yourself the time limit :-))

pm215 Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:

pm215 Wrote:So did you manage to find the time to do the other JLPT2 test papers? (I'm genuinely interested in the results.)

Give me some time, I'll have it done/results up sometime next week.

Thanks. (PS: don't forget to time yourself on the reading/grammar paper, it's much easier if you don't give yourself the time limit :-))

How much time should I give myself for each section. I can time it per section using an online timer.

ta12121 Wrote:

pm215 Wrote:(PS: don't forget to time yourself on the reading/grammar paper, it's much easier if you don't give yourself the time limit :-))

How much time should I give myself for each section. I can time it per section using an online timer.

For JLPT2 the 文字 語彙 paper (which you've already done) is 35 minutes, the 聴解 paper is 40 minutes (fixed by the length of the audio anyway!) and the 読解 文法 paper is 70 minutes.
(Each paper is divided into subsections but the time limit applies to the whole paper only, so it's up to you how to divide your 70 minutes between the reading questions and the grammar, for example.)

PS: which year are you doing?

pm215 Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:

pm215 Wrote:(PS: don't forget to time yourself on the reading/grammar paper, it's much easier if you don't give yourself the time limit :-))

How much time should I give myself for each section. I can time it per section using an online timer.

For JLPT2 the 文字 語彙 paper (which you've already done) is 35 minutes, the 聴解 paper is 40 minutes (fixed by the length of the audio anyway!) and the 読解 文法 paper is 70 minutes.
(Each paper is divided into subsections but the time limit applies to the whole paper only, so it's up to you how to divide your 70 minutes between the reading questions and the grammar, for example.)

PS: which year are you doing?

Most recent one, think it was 2006.

The other important thing you need to know is that questions in different sections are worth varying numbers of points. Ideally you want to find the mark scheme (http://www.jpgarden.cn/st/paper/ has this but only for papers up to 2005) but I think they're generally basically the same provided you don't go back too many years. For JLPT2, on the 文字 語彙 paper questions in sections I and II (kanji reading and writing) are worth 1 point each; questions in sections III to VI (vocabulary) are worth two points each. This should generally give you a total score out of 90. For the 読解 文法 paper, questions in sections I, II and III (reading) are worth 5 points each; questions in IV, V, and VI (grammar) are worth 2 points each. In 聴解 all questions are 1 point.

I think you gave your 文字 語彙 as a score out of 65, which suggests you were counting answers rather than points. If you still have your answers to hand you might want to recalculate, but if not don't worry.

(Then when you've done all that, if you want to calculate an official overall mark then the papers themselves are weighted so that 文字 語彙 is 25% of your overall mark, as is 聴解, and 読解 文法 is 50%.)

aww Ta,

I feel so bad for, initially when I started reading this did feel a bit like you were boasting but as it updates I feel awful for you, your always having to prove yourself and your statistics.
Well I think your AMAZING and you've achieved such an amazing amount in a short time
Keep at it. you re-inspired me to continue srs'ing

hoshitachi Wrote:aww Ta,

I feel so bad for, initially when I started reading this did feel a bit like you were boasting but as it updates I feel awful for you, your always having to prove yourself and your statistics.
Well I think your AMAZING and you've achieved such an amazing amount in a short time
Keep at it. you re-inspired me to continue srs'ing

Thanks, that's good to hear I've inspired someone.
One of my other friends is always negative to me about japanese, like criticism in how I don't know much in japanese. Ironic part he's not even learning it, so it kinda gives me the impression that some people just want to take you down to their level. I never boast about how good I am in japanese, b/c I think I'm not even there yet. I've only talked to the people about japanese(outside the circle of people learning Japanese) about how much time I spend on it.
Although I spend a lot of time with japanese, it is good in general. No one doubts the benefits of knowing multiple languages. But some people find it strange, but some of these people are doing the same but with video games. That is pretty counter-productive in my mind. But what can you do, for me personally. I'll show them by getting fluent, being able to talk to japanese people,write them, understand,read with fluency in mind. Sorry for my ranting, but I'm sure people have gotten this reaction with people they know as well.