thurd Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:Doing JLPT level 2 right now.
Section
2006年度2級
文字・語彙
Will post results soon for this section

Results are 51/65. For this section.
Let me try the others.
What I found troubling was that, some of the things were listed in hiragana. So I had to double check my answers to see if it fits right. like I got an example one about うたがう>疑う
If i seen the kanji I would have immediately understand the answer easily. I guess that means I should really focus on hiragana words carefully now.

What I'm interested in is how did the other sections go, vocab is pretty straightforward. I want to see how general language learning matches the requirements for specific exams.
I aim at JLPT 2 this December and since I'm way behind you overall, I try to compensate (cheat if you will) a little by doing JLPT oriented study.

I'd say it's hearing the language/reading the language that will get you JLPT 2 and 1.
After a while it will sink when, when your reading what the question asks. As for grammar, just understand it. I feel that for JLPT a lot of the time, it's just studying for it. But i've although heard stories that if you just keep reading/immersing/using the srs. You should be able to blaze through the test. (So reading news,novels,etc)

ta12121 Wrote:As for grammar, just understand it.

The JLPT tries to test that you not only understand grammar when you see it but also that you can produce it correctly (this is the aim of all those questions which want you to get verb forms right or know what particles go with what grammar form). So "just understanding it" will only get you so far...

ta12121 Wrote:I'd say it's hearing the language/reading the language that will get you JLPT 2 and 1.
After a while it will sink when, when your reading what the question asks. As for grammar, just understand it. I feel that for JLPT a lot of the time, it's just studying for it. But i've although heard stories that if you just keep reading/immersing/using the srs. You should be able to blaze through the test. (So reading news,novels,etc)

Thats what I want to confirm through you. Rather than hearing stories about it, I'd rather find out by taking you as an example.

ta12121 Wrote:

cescoz Wrote:I think it's pretty difficult with that crazy stats that ta12121 showed to be "humble"...and by the way, humble for what?! he studied like hell and some flattering can't hurt right
If I was him maybe my behaviour would have been the same

有難う御座います！
As for being humble, it's just my personality.

i lol'd hard.

"The more I learn, the less I know."

Not singling anyone out here but I do think there is a little too much bragging in this forum. It kind of puts me off coming in here.

Jarvik7 Wrote:I do think that this forum as a whole has too much emphasis on stats (added cards, reps per day, etc) and time (especially unrealistic goals). What is wrong with seeing study as an open ended journey?

I definitely agree about the unrealistic goals... I think it is probably because people are learning from abroad and not experiencing the wtf moments you get in Japan where you don't understand what the hell people are on about (even though you've been studying loads).

I mean watching a drama or the news is one thing but a drunken dinner in a loud Izakaya with people of all ages and different dialects kinda puts you in your place.

Back to the original topic, taking a JLPT or some or test (J-test?) will give a way better measure. I mean xxxx amount of sentences doesn't really mean much to me and xx% understanding is really vague.

If you take a test you'll see where your weaknesses lie and then you can focus on those areas. But then the tests don't cover speaking.... I always wonder if my Japanese will end up sounding strange if I let the speaking get too far behind other areas (no idea if this is true) so every so often stop learning vocab and grammar and just practice using what I know. Gonna do that after this coming JLPT and am *really* looking forward to it.

IceCream Wrote:i'd second what pm says, studying grammar is very helpful, especially if native grammar isn't easy for you (it isn't for me either　：). It helps you construct logically thought through sentences, which then later become a habit.

i do have one more question. Actually i wrote it earlier, then deleted it because i thought it sounded a bit rude. But, actually, i am interested in how the stats you gave relate to how much you've accomplished, so i'll ask again. Anyway, so please don't take it as offense or anything...

On the 31st May you said you'd studied 10K words and 14,666 sentences. But these stats seem to show you having studied 21K vocab and 21K sentences.
What am i missing here? Because, well... is it even possible to even study 11,000 words and 6000 sentences in 17 days!?! Even if that was a seperate deck that you've now combined, i remember speaking with you in the "Survey - Where are you at?" thread around a month ago, and i thought the stats you posted there meant you'd studied about 17,000 words, but you said that it wasn't, and you'd only studied about 10K then too. 11K words even given a month seems a bit high... (are they duplicate words or something?)

So, how do these stats relate to the actual amount of words and sentences you've studied?

I did add a lot but I know that doesn't always a substitute for it being "learned". I've found that to truly know it, you have to be able to read it/understand it in context. But mastering it, is all skills. speaking,writing,reading,understanding/using it in a variety of context. Even though I have a large amount of cards it doesn't mean I'm close to being fluent or what not. I believe that it's just a matter of putting in the time,a lot of time to get there.

slivir Wrote:"The more I learn, the less I know."

Not singling anyone out here but I do think there is a little too much bragging in this forum. It kind of puts me off coming in here.

If I come off as bragging I apologize. Just trying to help other people in my similar situation when it comes to learning Japanese.

caivano Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:I do think that this forum as a whole has too much emphasis on stats (added cards, reps per day, etc) and time (especially unrealistic goals). What is wrong with seeing study as an open ended journey?

I definitely agree about the unrealistic goals... I think it is probably because people are learning from abroad and not experiencing the wtf moments you get in Japan where you don't understand what the hell people are on about (even though you've been studying loads).

I mean watching a drama or the news is one thing but a drunken dinner in a loud Izakaya with people of all ages and different dialects kinda puts you in your place.

Back to the original topic, taking a JLPT or some or test (J-test?) will give a way better measure. I mean xxxx amount of sentences doesn't really mean much to me and xx% understanding is really vague.

If you take a test you'll see where your weaknesses lie and then you can focus on those areas. But then the tests don't cover speaking.... I always wonder if my Japanese will end up sounding strange if I let the speaking get too far behind other areas (no idea if this is true) so every so often stop learning vocab and grammar and just practice using what I know. Gonna do that after this coming JLPT and am *really* looking forward to it.

True I understand, % of what I understand can be vague as you can't always determine what you truly understand. But I remembering reading that JLPT level 1=14 year old Japanese person's skills level.
I know JLPT does give you places of what to improve on.
But like you said it doesn't test for speaking.
I think it's good to have but I believe that, if I can show japanese people your skills(for me it's in the near future, not know, cuz no where close to being fluent. If they say I'm fluent after showing them I can talk,write,read,speak,etc perfectly. That's what I'm aiming for, because sadly taking a test doesn't always show skill level in a language. )
I hope I don't come off as being mean, but this is true. (Don't mean anything by this)
I believe a true test of fluency is operating at a native-level capacity. So reading a novel in full without much difficulty, speaking to someone about any topic without much difficultly, writing kanji from memory without much difficultly. etc)

IceCream Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:i'd second what pm says, studying grammar is very helpful, especially if native grammar isn't easy for you (it isn't for me either　：). It helps you construct logically thought through sentences, which then later become a habit.

i do have one more question. Actually i wrote it earlier, then deleted it because i thought it sounded a bit rude. But, actually, i am interested in how the stats you gave relate to how much you've accomplished, so i'll ask again. Anyway, so please don't take it as offense or anything...

On the 31st May you said you'd studied 10K words and 14,666 sentences. But these stats seem to show you having studied 21K vocab and 21K sentences.
What am i missing here? Because, well... is it even possible to even study 11,000 words and 6000 sentences in 17 days!?! Even if that was a seperate deck that you've now combined, i remember speaking with you in the "Survey - Where are you at?" thread around a month ago, and i thought the stats you posted there meant you'd studied about 17,000 words, but you said that it wasn't, and you'd only studied about 10K then too. 11K words even given a month seems a bit high... (are they duplicate words or something?)


So, how do these stats relate to the actual amount of words and sentences you've studied?

I did add a lot but I know that doesn't always a substitute for it being "learned". I've found that to truly know it, you have to be able to read it/understand it in context. But mastering it, is all skills. speaking,writing,reading,understanding/using it in a variety of context. Even though I have a large amount of cards it doesn't mean I'm close to being fluent or what not. I believe that it's just a matter of putting in the time,a lot of time to get there.

wow... you seriously added roughly 1000 cards a day this past half a month?? i'm surprised you can even get through your reviews in 24 hours let alone 1-2 hours

anyway, your progress on your mature cards is impressive enough!!! That pace sounds much more solid... if you're trying to shove too much information into your brain, it won't process and stick it as well, i think.

True, I've been slowing it down nowadays. I think it's best if I keep reading on the side(a lot). B/c chances are, seeing the same stuff I was srs are high. From news,sites,novels,etc. I believe outside the srs, reading is the next best thing. Immersing is helpful too. I think if I stick with 100-200 vocab a day it's pretty easy. 1000 is a bit extreme even for me, but I'm blazing through it(I don't write it). Basically I look to see if I got the correct reading, if not, move onto the next card. If I can't understand the vocab as well, I fail it.

ta12121 Wrote:I think it's good to have but I believe that, if I can show japanese people your skills(for me it's in the near future, not know, cuz no where close to being fluent. If they say I'm fluent after showing them I can talk,write,read,speak,etc perfectly. That's what I'm aiming for, because sadly taking a test doesn't always show skill level in a language. )
I hope I don't come off as being mean, but this is true. (Don't mean anything by this)
I believe a true test of fluency is operating at a native-level capacity. So reading a novel in full without much difficulty, speaking to someone about any topic without much difficultly, writing kanji from memory without much difficultly. etc)

I think you're missing the point of why people take the test, it's not to show general Japanese people your skill, they don't give a monkeys about the JLPT.

For lower JLPT levels it's good to structure your learning, for motivation and to find your weak points. For the higher levels it's this plus having it on your CV will surely help get you more interviews than writing 'give me an interview and I'll show you my skills.'

But from your point of view if you're gonna post a progress report, it would be much easier for people to give advice if you had test scores rather than the xx sentences and xx% understanding

caivano Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:I think it's good to have but I believe that, if I can show japanese people your skills(for me it's in the near future, not know, cuz no where close to being fluent. If they say I'm fluent after showing them I can talk,write,read,speak,etc perfectly. That's what I'm aiming for, because sadly taking a test doesn't always show skill level in a language. )
I hope I don't come off as being mean, but this is true. (Don't mean anything by this)
I believe a true test of fluency is operating at a native-level capacity. So reading a novel in full without much difficulty, speaking to someone about any topic without much difficultly, writing kanji from memory without much difficultly. etc)

I think you're missing the point of why people take the test, it's not to show general Japanese people your skill, they don't give a monkeys about the JLPT.

For lower JLPT levels it's good to structure your learning, for motivation and to find your weak points. For the higher levels it's this plus having it on your CV will surely help get you more interviews than writing 'give me an interview and I'll show you my skills.'

But from your point of view if you're gonna post a progress report, it would be much easier for people to give advice if you had test scores rather than the xx sentences and xx% understanding

I guess it depends, but let's say I was applying for a chemistry job in japan, having a degree in Canada for chem. Let's say I had JLPT level 1, got 90% on each section cuz I studied for it. But if I can't create my own cover-letter/research/resume/create it in Japanese,etc,etc./talk to the interview in full Japanese,read,write,speak to him or her. I bet JLPT wouldn't matter much to them, unless they require it indefinitely. Don't mean to sound negative, don't want to. A lot of japanese people don't know what JLPT is. Same with Japanese how, English natives don't know about the equivalent to JLPT but in English. I mean, having what they require(requirements) is one thing, don't get me wrong on that. But having the proficiency to show them is another.

But I do agree that it's good for structured learning, but after what happens after JLPT level 1 is done? A lot of people agree that JLPT 1 doesn't equal fluency in Japanese. That's the point I'm trying to make.

ta12121 Wrote:I guess it depends, but let's say I was applying for a chemistry job in japan, having a degree in Canada for chem. Let's say I had JLPT level 1, got 90% on each section cuz I studied for it. But if I can't create my own cover-letter/research/resume/create it in Japanese,etc,etc./talk to the interview in full Japanese,read,write,speak to him or her. I bet JLPT wouldn't matter much to them, unless they require it indefinitely. Don't mean to sound negative, don't want to. A lot of japanese people don't know what JLPT is. Same with Japanese how, English natives don't know about the equivalent to JLPT but in English. I mean, having what they require(requirements) is one thing, don't get me wrong on that. But having the proficiency to show them is another.

But I do agree that it's good for structured learning, but after what happens after JLPT level 1 is done? A lot of people agree that JLPT 1 doesn't equal fluency in Japanese. That's the point I'm trying to make.

Yeah when you get the interview you obviously have to be able to carry it out and show them you can do the job but without JLPT1 your chances of even getting an interview are much less.

I mean this is the whole point of qualifications. I have a CELTA (TEFL) which has got me teaching jobs, I don't use that style of teaching at all in some of them but it put me ahead of the people who don't have it and helped get me to the interview.

JLPT1 -> fluency is gonna be about real life practice, with JLPT1 you're gonna have most of the knowledge you need but you need a shitload of practice to make it flow well in conversation.

ta12121 Wrote:

caivano Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:I think it's good to have but I believe that, if I can show japanese people your skills(for me it's in the near future, not know, cuz no where close to being fluent. If they say I'm fluent after showing them I can talk,write,read,speak,etc perfectly. That's what I'm aiming for, because sadly taking a test doesn't always show skill level in a language. )
I hope I don't come off as being mean, but this is true. (Don't mean anything by this)
I believe a true test of fluency is operating at a native-level capacity. So reading a novel in full without much difficulty, speaking to someone about any topic without much difficultly, writing kanji from memory without much difficultly. etc)

I think you're missing the point of why people take the test, it's not to show general Japanese people your skill, they don't give a monkeys about the JLPT.

For lower JLPT levels it's good to structure your learning, for motivation and to find your weak points. For the higher levels it's this plus having it on your CV will surely help get you more interviews than writing 'give me an interview and I'll show you my skills.'

But from your point of view if you're gonna post a progress report, it would be much easier for people to give advice if you had test scores rather than the xx sentences and xx% understanding

I guess it depends, but let's say I was applying for a chemistry job in japan, having a degree in Canada for chem. Let's say I had JLPT level 1, got 90% on each section cuz I studied for it. But if I can't create my own cover-letter/research/resume/create it in Japanese,etc,etc./talk to the interview in full Japanese,read,write,speak to him or her. I bet JLPT wouldn't matter much to them, unless they require it indefinitely. Don't mean to sound negative, don't want to. A lot of japanese people don't know what JLPT is. Same with Japanese how, English natives don't know about the equivalent to JLPT but in English. I mean, having what they require(requirements) is one thing, don't get me wrong on that. But having the proficiency to show them is another.

But I do agree that it's good for structured learning, but after what happens after JLPT level 1 is done? A lot of people agree that JLPT 1 doesn't equal fluency in Japanese. That's the point I'm trying to make.

Get JLPT1 if you can.

The truth is that for any given job opening there are more than enough people
that qualify for the position. So what HR depts do is weed out candidates
using any way possible. By not having JLPT1, you are giving companies
another reason to eliminate you (even if you are qualified).

So if JLPT1 is within your grasp, get to work.

Getting JLPT1 will put you above all the other job candidates who don't have
the qualification (even if they are qualified). And that could be the difference between getting a job and not getting a job.

@chamcham
very true. I do plan on getting Level 1. Maybe this December(maybe) or next year's summer. I guess I just want to get my Japanese at a good level, by studying/reviewing/immersing,etc,etc. In terms of speaking/writing need a lot more practice. But i'm not worried about understanding/reading.

@ta12121 - if your stats are any indication of actual progress (which, as previous posters have said, may or may not be the case), then you're doing exceptionally well. I commend you on your dedication - you've been studying for half the time I have, and are lightyears ahead of me in the anki deck stakes

On the humility debate: I initially thought taさん was a bit up himself (herself?), but have since realised that it's not bragging, just an unwavering self-focus. I agree with whoever said that you should keep the "me, me, me" to your own progress thread. The problem with regurgitating your latest stats in every post is that it becomes a bit like a broken record. You know those people who constantly bring every conversation back to themselves, rather than a mix of themselves, the person they're talking to, and other concepts/situations/people? You know how boring they are, and how you kind of tune out or want to walk away from them because of it? That's how it is with taさん at times. As soon as the "me, me, me" starts, I skip to the next person's comment, and might be missing some good content as a result.

ta12121 Wrote:Live in Canada at the moment. Probably teach in english in japan later down the road. Or if my japanese does get really good, work in a japanese company.

Uh, the Japanese company idea might be a better bet, or studying in Japan. Your English has a real non-native sound to it at times (odd grammar, punctuation and choice of words), so teaching it might not be the most suitable line of work for you. Well, unless you were just coaching people on effective language study techniques, rather than trying to teach English itself. You could be really successful with that, given your own experience...

aphasiac Wrote:You seem to mention your card stats and how long you have been studying (9.4 montsh...9.8 months etc etc) in every other post you make on this forum, and honestly I find it quite irksome.

This.

auxetoiles Wrote:@ta12121 - if your stats are any indication of actual progress (which, as previous posters have said, may or may not be the case), then you're doing exceptionally well. I commend you on your dedication - you've been studying for half the time I have, and are lightyears ahead of me in the anki deck stakes

On the humility debate: I initially thought taさん was a bit up himself (herself?), but have since realised that it's not bragging, just an unwavering self-focus. I agree with whoever said that you should keep the "me, me, me" to your own progress thread. The problem with regurgitating your latest stats in every post is that it becomes a bit like a broken record. You know those people who constantly bring every conversation back to themselves, rather than a mix of themselves, the person they're talking to, and other concepts/situations/people? You know how boring they are, and how you kind of tune out or want to walk away from them because of it? That's how it is with taさん at times. As soon as the "me, me, me" starts, I skip to the next person's comment, and might be missing some good content as a result.

ta12121 Wrote:Live in Canada at the moment. Probably teach in english in japan later down the road. Or if my japanese does get really good, work in a japanese company.

Uh, the Japanese company idea might be a better bet, or studying in Japan. Your English has a real non-native sound to it at times (odd grammar, punctuation and choice of words), so teaching it might not be the most suitable line of work for you. Well, unless you were just coaching people on effective language study techniques, rather than trying to teach English itself. You could be really successful with that, given your own experience...

I'm fluent in English. I've been living in Canada for 98% of my life. Native-level basically. If I'm making grammar mistakes and such. It's not my English really, it's just that fact that I'm typing fast and not really double checking my spelling/grammar and such. As for techniques,etc That wouldn't be bad a idea. But I've found that if the learner is serious, they will give it a try. A lot of people are set on how they want to proceed after they've been learning for a while. For example in the beginning when I was learning Japanese I didn't have a good idea of where to start. As there where a sea full of Japanese things to learn. I'm not sure if teaching is my thing. I'll aim for working at a japanese company if possible.

SammyB Wrote:

aphasiac Wrote:You seem to mention your card stats and how long you have been studying (9.4 montsh...9.8 months etc etc) in every other post you make on this forum, and honestly I find it quite irksome.

This.

lol, guess I should not post my stats. Maybe only in the long-term wise. Every 5-months sounds good to me. To keep it consistent with this.

Ta did you try the other jlpt2 test sections yet? I'm very interested in seeing how well you do. You did great on the first part.

RisuMiso Wrote:Ta did you try the other jlpt2 test sections yet? I'm very interested in seeing how well you do. You did great on the first part.

I'll do the others tomorrow, when I've got more energy. It's late at night over here in canada.

ta12121 Wrote:lol, guess I should not post my stats. Maybe only in the long-term wise. Every 5-months sounds good to me. To keep it consistent with this.

Haha, I definitely don't mind hearing about it every now and then.. gives me a kick up the bum when i've been lazy... But yeah, in moderation.

SammyB Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:lol, guess I should not post my stats. Maybe only in the long-term wise. Every 5-months sounds good to me. To keep it consistent with this.

Haha, I definitely don't mind hearing about it every now and then.. gives me a kick up the bum when i've been lazy... But yeah, in moderation.

This. I guess its sometimes noticeable in ta12121s posts but I treat it as a motivational device rather than anything else. Keep it up.

I don't think he's bragging when he posts about his experiences.

It's just that in the a lot of his posts, he'll mention it. He'll bring it up, even if it's not what the discussion was about. That's the part that I find irksome.

His progress is actually what gets me off my ass and gets me to learn some more vocab.

IceCream Wrote:i enjoy seeing his stats too. But Please make them representative of what you've really studied next time Ta, not a number so overblown that it is doubled. That's not motivational, but the real number is.

auxetoiles puts very consisely how i've felt about ta's writing at times. but this thread makes me feel a bit grim, and sorry for ta12121. getting criticism is never nice, but sometimes its worth listening to, i think.

i dunno, outta here...

kk, got to watch out for next time. The stats I've posted where my decks. Some of which I haven't completed fully. Like 30,000+ vocab. I've only gotten down like 20,000 of them completed. Same applies to my sentence deck.
I'll watch out for what I say in the future about my stats.