Erubey Wrote:Learning a language doesn't seem like a very economical path to me.

Except for English, but we know that

Erubey Wrote:Learning a language doesn't seem like a very economical path to me.
Unless you already have a set path with a career in a certain country or group in mind.

I just mean, with the huge amounts of time a language requires, I'm not sure if money was your objective, it wouldn't be more profitable to invest the time in some other skill set or goal.

High input low output it seems?

Well Japan is still the 2nd most powerful economy in the world with a huge GDP lead over most countries so its not that hard to imagine treating Japanese like an investment and opportunity for a better life.

Getting skilled in some areas within the borders of one country usually has a low impact on your salary but if you change a country, do the same job and earn 3 times more it seems like a good investment There are tons of countries on this planet that have this kind of situation, all depends on where you live. Stories about Russian engineers earning the equivalent of 100$ a month, Indian doctors driving taxis in NYC etc. don't come from nowhere.

Learning languages is generally very profitable, you are more flexible and attractive for potential employers, can access more job markets easily and by itself the skill has some monetary value (translation, teaching etc.). Also I've yet to meet an upper level manager that doesn't have at least 2 additional languages.

Its also fantastic for travel: learn English, Spanish, Chinese and you're set for most of the world (just count the populations speaking them, that doesn't include foreigners that learn them as L2) isn't it great to be able to speak with 3/4 of people populating this planet?

Also, don't forget us native English speakers learning Japanese have a huge advantage over Japanese learning English. We have an an advantage of doing Japanese to English, and they have an advantage of doing English to Japanese. For example, I've been doing a fair bit of Japanese > English stuff lately (small jobs) for people with better English than my Japanese. Also there's less English-natives learning Japanese than Japanese learning English, so we have less competition too.

There's also the potential for Japanese being very good depending on your field. For example if you're in programming, most other English-native programmers won't know Japanese. Then you can flip it around too, not many English-natives with great Japanese know programming (technical knowledge).

I guess what I'm trying to say is, learning Japanese may help you find a niche, but Japanese alone probably won't accomplish as much.

thurd Wrote:

Erubey Wrote:Learning a language doesn't seem like a very economical path to me.
Unless you already have a set path with a career in a certain country or group in mind.

I just mean, with the huge amounts of time a language requires, I'm not sure if money was your objective, it wouldn't be more profitable to invest the time in some other skill set or goal.

High input low output it seems?

Well Japan is still the 2nd most powerful economy in the world with a huge GDP lead over most countries so its not that hard to imagine treating Japanese like an investment and opportunity for a better life.

Japan is believed to become economically worse than Argentina in the next two decades. I don't see that as a huge investment.

BlueFinger Wrote:Japan is believed to become economically worse than Argentina in the next two decades. I don't see that as a huge investment.

Some also believe Japan will ride right through all the problems.

Economics is funny.

Grinkers Wrote:

BlueFinger Wrote:Japan is believed to become economically worse than Argentina in the next two decades. I don't see that as a huge investment.

Some also believe Japan will ride right through all the problems.

Some links please...

Anyone in here who says they are learning Japanese and never think of any of the economic benefits it can lead to for themselves is... well, a liar.

Then again, if you are going to learn Chinese for business reasons, might as well forget that too. Korean is a good bet if you want to stick East-Asian, though.

Raschaverak Wrote:

Grinkers Wrote:

BlueFinger Wrote:Japan is believed to become economically worse than Argentina in the next two decades. I don't see that as a huge investment.

Some also believe Japan will ride right through all the problems.

Some links please...

http://www4.gsb.columbia.edu/cjeb

for starters if you want to read what serious people say about the Japanese economy.

Most serious economists do believe Japan is in a heck of a lot of trouble, and for good reason. Government debt, deflation and economic growth aside, the birth rate in Japan just simply isn't enough to maintain current government spending over the next few decades. Now this can change, so of course it's foolish to say 'Japan is screwed'. But unless they can get their birth rate up, or immigration rate, they are financially doomed no matter what government policy is.

Ryuujin27 Wrote:Anyone in here who says they are learning Japanese and never think of any of the economic benefits it can lead to for themselves is... well, a liar.

Then again, if you are going to learn Chinese for business reasons, might as well forget that too. Korean is a good bet if you want to stick East-Asian, though.

i'm sure everyone has thought of benefits for economic reasons or other. But I basically keep telling myself, first get fluent then worry about that later.

lagwagon555 Wrote:Most serious economists do believe Japan is in a heck of a lot of trouble, and for good reason. Government debt, deflation and economic growth aside, the birth rate in Japan just simply isn't enough to maintain current government spending over the next few decades. Now this can change, so of course it's foolish to say 'Japan is screwed'. But unless they can get their birth rate up, or immigration rate, they are financially doomed no matter what government policy is.

Theoretically. As long as Japan's GDP growth outpaces its population decline then the average citizen will be left better off.

IceCream Wrote:

Ryuujin27 Wrote:Anyone in here who says they are learning Japanese and never think of any of the economic benefits it can lead to for themselves is... well, a liar.

ええ？?? umm... what economic benefits are those?!? i can't think of any economic benefits of moving to japan at all. I doubt the majority of ALT teachers seriously are considering it as that either. i totally never even considered it as a reason to learn the language in any way before this thread...

1. The majority of ALT teachers do not learn Japanese beyond a very basic level.
2. The majority of ALT teachers only stay in Japan for two years or so.

IceCream Wrote:

Ryuujin27 Wrote:Anyone in here who says they are learning Japanese and never think of any of the economic benefits it can lead to for themselves is... well, a liar.

ええ？?? umm... what economic benefits are those?!? i can't think of any economic benefits of moving to japan at all. I doubt the majority of ALT teachers seriously are considering it as that either. i totally never even considered it as a reason to learn the language in any way before this thread...

I'm not talking about ALT teachers at all. I'm not yet at the point where I want to tie myself down with a job, but I have gotten interviews based solely on the fact that Japanese appears on my resume.

Ryuujin27 Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:

Ryuujin27 Wrote:Anyone in here who says they are learning Japanese and never think of any of the economic benefits it can lead to for themselves is... well, a liar.

ええ？?? umm... what economic benefits are those?!? i can't think of any economic benefits of moving to japan at all. I doubt the majority of ALT teachers seriously are considering it as that either. i totally never even considered it as a reason to learn the language in any way before this thread...

I'm not talking about ALT teachers at all. I'm not yet at the point where I want to tie myself down with a job, but I have gotten interviews based solely on the fact that Japanese appears on my resume.

This depends. Like if you said your fluent in japanese in all 4 skills and where applying to a job in the U.S. let's say. They would be very interested to interview you. If you got o japan and put your resume fully in Japanese and stated your fluent in japanese and in english. You'd definitely get interviews due to be a gaijin.

What I'm trying to say here is that, it all comes down to what job. Some jobs, knowing more languages is a plus no matter what the language is. But having it on your resume in any job is still good none the less.

Ryuujin27 Wrote:Anyone in here who says they are learning Japanese and never think of any of the economic benefits it can lead to for themselves is... well, a liar.

Then again, if you are going to learn Chinese for business reasons, might as well forget that too. Korean is a good bet if you want to stick East-Asian, though.

Well, I actually think of "economic benefit" about learning japanese like maybe having a little advantage compared to others when getting a job, maybe becoming the man between Japan and the place I work, but that's far from my reasons to learn it, these would be just advantages, good consequences, not the main motivation.

Ryuujin27 Wrote:Anyone in here who says they are learning Japanese and never think of any of the economic benefits it can lead to for themselves is... well, a liar.

You keep believing your telepathic generalizations all you want, I'll just keep doing what I've been doing since before I knew economic benefits for languages (besides English) existed.

IceCream Wrote:I doubt the majority of ALT teachers seriously are considering it as that either.

Almost every member of the JET program is riding the gravy train. $40,000 a year and subsidized housing for about 18 hours of work a week? Yeah I'd call that an economic benefit.

But then again, most of the people on JET aren't trying that hard to learn Japanese.


But the above aside, knowing any major foreign language can serve as resume padding. I think we're all aware of that.

You can't really compare China and Japan. They have totally different cultures and are in different development stages. Japan had the revolution and the civil war 140 years ago and had the technology to develop world's best battleships, aircraft carriers and fighter airplanes 60 years ago. And it is now suffering from stagnation. It kinda hit the ceiling.

On the other hand, China had just got over with Cultural Revolution and Tiananmen square incident. Their fighter jets, rockets, even cars are still basically carbon copies of someone else's. But, it is a country that is up and coming.

China is the world's factory now, and Japan is the one that is providing it with production machines, high-tech materials, and manufacturing know-hows. Even hundreds of Chinese words they use every day that are related to technology and social sciences are actually loan words from Japanese.

I'm not trying to play down China, it IS a bigger power in the world than Japan already. It's just it will take some time, probably several decades, for China to surpass Japan in terms of advancement in the social systems and the technology.

So, it comes down to what you want to do and where you want to be. Working for a big company as an average Joe in China is probably out of question for most people on this forum, money wise. But you probably have more opportunities to start up a new business there if you are an entrepreneur type. (though, often you need to do under-the-tables and other nasty stuffs). It may be harder to start up a business in Japan, but there are more normal career-oriented positions in large international companies that are open to foreigners.

And, there is the question of whether or not you like the culture. I've stayed in Colorado for over 10 years just because the outdoor sports here are so cool and people are nice. And I wouldn't regret it even if I could have made twice the money somewhere else.

Womacks23 Wrote:Theoretically. As long as Japan's GDP growth outpaces its population decline then the average citizen will be left better off.

If only it were that simple. Japans GDP hasn't grown for the past two decades, where as most of the developed world experienced unprecedented economic growth. But when you now take into account the shrinking workforce and the massive tax burden that will be placed on the workers of the future, Japans GDP is going nowhere but down, down, down.

Again, this doesn't mean certain doom for Japan. It can keep its GDP per capita increasing if it enacts policy. Although these will be public spending cuts like never seen before, which is why they most likely wont be enacted until a government absolutely is forced to, aka too late. But if Japan can greatly cut the dependence of pensioners on the state, then there's no reason why Japan can't maintain the same standard of living. Sadly alot of people who rely on the state for their pension will hit retirement age and not have a penny in their pockets.

lagwagon555 Wrote:Japans GDP hasn't grown for the past two decades, where as most of the developed world experienced unprecedented economic growth.

It doesn't look that much of a difference especially when you consider Japan had unprecedented economic growth in 70s and 80s.
http://www.iti.or.jp/stat/4-008.pdf

Yes, there are a lot of pensioners who are relying or will be relying on the state, but unlike Greek or the US, most of them have so much savings. Japanese (and Chinese for that matter) save like crazy, even average middle class workers have 100s of thousands of dollars in the bank when they retire.

I think the market itself is showing what investors in the world are thinking. Yen is not getting cheaper at all. It's actually getting stronger, despite the fact Japan itself wants cheaper Yen for it is relying on export. Japan's economy may be, or is, sketchy but not much worse than the US's or Europe's, at least that's how it seems.

Ryuujin27 Wrote:Korean is a good bet if you want to stick East-Asian, though.

I guess you mean South-Korea, although I don't know how much difference there is between the 2 Koreas regarding the language, but there are a lot of countries where other factors massively exceed the economical possibilites regarding the order of importance....in the case of Korea, well North-Korea is just too damn close to South Korea, which would represent a certain political risk / personal safety risk factor (for me), which is more important than the potential economic benefits of working there for a few years (with fluent korean).

masaman Wrote:But you probably have more opportunities to start up a new business there if you are an entrepreneur type. (though, often you need to do under-the-tables and other nasty stuffs).

I doubt that. As a full-time citizen of a formal communist country, I can tell you that normally the small fish always get caught regarding crime / criminal activities (business crime, physical crime, anything). It's ironical, but the bigger the crime is, the less likely it will be revealed (because the bigger the possibility is that upper classes of society are involved in it...ect.)
So if I go to China to start up a business and I start doing things under the table, I will be executed It's as simple as that....

lagwagon555 Wrote:But unless they can get their birth rate up, or immigration rate, they are financially doomed no matter what government policy is.

This is a classic debate. The question remains, that ok, I want to have children, but how am I gonna feed them and provide them proper clothing and education, ect, with the current and future prices compared to salaries? I haven't looked up any studies regarding this topic, but I think It's safe to say that the average cost of bringing up a child let's say unti his / her 20th birthday, has increased immensely compared to the average salaries in the developed countries...that's about it. Not to mention that nowdays you have to have more than one degree and speak several foreign languages (fluently) to get even a damn assistent position in a company (at least in Hungary it is the case). Thus learn more = less time for social activites, like raising children, but since everybody is doing this degree-hunt, the salaries do not get that much higher like without a degree....therefore in the EMEA region, usually a higher education degree is just a neccessity, and not an investment (and not because our educational system sucks, although it's not perfect I admit it...), or a waste of time, but without it you will starve to death... God, where is this world going

Raschaverak Wrote:

masaman Wrote:But you probably have more opportunities to start up a new business there if you are an entrepreneur type. (though, often you need to do under-the-tables and other nasty stuffs).

I doubt that. As a full-time citizen of a formal communist country, I can tell you that normally the small fish always get caught regarding crime / criminal activities (business crime, physical crime, anything). It's ironical, but the bigger the crime is, the less likely it will be revealed (because the bigger the possibility is that upper classes of society are involved in it...ect.)
So if I go to China to start up a business and I start doing things under the table, I will be executed It's as simple as that....

Believe it or not, it's the other way around in China. Top officials and big businessmen often get caught and sometimes are executed, but bribery and kick-backs are everyday practice, it'll be hard to do business of any size without them...

http://blogs.bnet.com/ethics/?p=210

Ryuujin27 Wrote:Anyone in here who says they are learning Japanese and never think of any of the economic benefits it can lead to for themselves is... well, a liar.

Eh, what? Learning Japanese is a fun hobby for me and I don't think about economic benefits when indulging in a hobby. I don't even see how I personally could leverage Japanese for any economic benefit whatsoever.