I was wondering about this for some time. But I get the feeling that a lot of Japanese people don't expect 外国人 to get far in their language. Let alone fluent. Obviously this isn't the whole population. But I hear it's a great majority.

I told one of my japanese friends about how I spend a lot of time in the language. He's like that's awesome, keep going. I said to him I practice a lot of/reading/listening and overall general immersing myself in the language. He's like, even better, keep going! But when I said, I want to get fluent in writing 日本語. He said you don't really need that, but I said "I want to get fully fluent in this language, all skills not just some." lol what I told him afterwards is that, for me to become fluent in writing japanese, I'd have to fill my basement up with paper(filled with kanji). So far I'm only 0.25/100 there lol. Anyhow jokes aside.

I basically get the impression that some don't expect you to get good. I think it's just linked to the perceived difficulty of the language.
Have any of you guys had this experience?

In my experience, nobody in Japan expects you to speak Japanese, until you present/prove yourself to be competent.

A lot of my Japanese friends I've met through friends I already had. Because of this, they kind of assume that "oh, well if he's friends with so-and-so, he must speak OK." They get used to my level, don't adjust to it, but understand if I get screwed up sometimes.

On a more "professional" basis, it can go either way. You'll have a lot of restaurants bring you English menus, talking incredibly slow to you, or not even talking to you -- referring to your native friends instead.
In this situation, if you can push yourself ahead (ordering first in the group, answering them when they talk to your Japanese friends, etc) then they'll usually take the hint. Just try not to make an ass of yourself by being all "I know fluent Japanese!" and then ask your friend what "お持ち帰りでしょうか" means.

ex: I was at au asking about this and that. I said "I don't know if you have a service like this or not, but...." instead of "I don't speak much Japanese, so please be patient with me...."
She treated me like a normal customer, even though I was with my native girlfriend the whole time.

So to me, no -- they don't expect you to be competent at all. But if you can show that you are, then they act normal to you.
I heard something sometime, along the lines of:
If they compliment your Japanese, then you probably suck at it
If they make fun/criticize your Japanese, then you're probably pretty good.

Thanks for the story. hmm if they compliment your japanese, you probably suck at it? Depends, if you can actually show them your good, then it should be good. But yea, I can understand the criticize/fun. I guess it's cuz they don't see too much fluent gaijins around. So when they see one that is fully fluent, they try to find gaps in there knowledge, like can you write this kanji? can you read this kanji? can you speak about this?,ec,etc

Nowadays I don't over exaggerate my level anymore. All I say is that I keep improving. (I never mention what I do daily for japanese learning, cuz i'm sure they will find it quite astounding or maybe a bit obsessive.)
When the time comes when I've reached a good level. Then I can show them.

For me when it comes to Japanese, unno I'm doing a lot and improving a lot but i'm never kinda satisfied. I have a good amount of reps/immersion/writing. So I think i'm fine in that category. But what I need is a lot of reading outside of my srs. I decided that if i include song lyrics/podcasts/news topics/etc,etc into my srs outside of my regular 3 decks I do for reps I can improve even more.
Even to fluency in those skills. (Just speaking about where I can improve here and I can feel if I keep going, I can gain some good skills soon)

bucko Wrote:Japanese is one of those languages that is easy to get good at but hard to get really good at. It's a pretty weird phenomenon the way Japanese people can be so easily impressed by a gaijin speaking Japanese, but some of the reasons might be because Japanese people themselves often struggle with it (try reading classical texts. Also, I've poured over academic papers with Japanese people to decipher the meaning of a piece of text and everyone comes to different conclusions - some don't even understand at all!), they don't see why foreigners would need or bother with it, they are generally infamously bad at learning foreign languages so are impressed at your efforts. There's also a small percentage that think you need a special "Japanese brain" to be able to understand Japanese (thankfully there aren't many of these people around! I never really met any but I heard they're out there). Once you can speak normally though most Japanese don't really give a toss and will treat you like any normal person.

Special brain? lol Never heard of that one, but wouldn't be surprised. When I told my friend I checked my reading level online and it states i can read 1800-1900 kanji. (I can probably write like 3000+ by now). He was like wow, why do you need to do that though? I'm like I just want to get fluent in all skills, I don't want half.

I told him, you probably need to know 3000 kanji or so to get really good. Not near there yet but I will be soon.(3000 I mean writing in general, different kanji not literally can write from memory 3000 kanji, I can't do that just yet)
Unno I just don't like to make excuses for myself, I can become fluent, all I need is to invest a huge amount of time to it.

ta12121 Wrote:Thanks for the story. hmm if they compliment your japanese, you probably suck at it? Depends, if you can actually show them your good, then it should be good.

Well, if someone is like 「すごいね！上手、上手！」when you can read　日本, and 頑張る.
But, when your friends, etc... get frustrated at you because you can't fill out some legal form or something, then you're probably 'pretty good.'
Being fluent, you wouldn't need to ask anything, so that's just out of there.

Think about it, when they know you're a beginner, they don't expect anything from you.
If you speak pretty well, then they'll get frustrated when you "break the flow" that you had going.

Quote:Nowadays I don't over exaggerate my level anymore...
When the time comes when I've reached a good level. Then I can show them.

I'm just saying speak how you speak. Don't say anything unless they ask. They'll probably be able to tell where you are without having to tell them.

Quote:For me when it comes to Japanese, unno I'm doing a lot and improving a lot but i'm never kinda satisfied.

My stay in Japan is slowly coming to an end (gotta be home for school next semester!) and I'm definitely feeling a lack of satisfaction of my level. I've improved quite a bit over here, but I'm at a point where improving is difficult. Trying to get from Conversational to Business at the moment, I guess you could say.

I've had some interesting situations with expectations. My name and body is Japanese (3rd generation Japanese-American), so when I speak Japanese they're *expecting* me to be good to perfect. I just thought I'd mention that it's actually opposite for me. When I make a mistake they're like "wow", then I tell them I started learning Japanese as an adult.

Technically my first language is actually Japanese, but I was English only from around age 4-5, so I was basically English-only until recently. I regret not using Japanese while growing up and going to Japanese weekend school as a kid...

Asriel Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:Thanks for the story. hmm if they compliment your japanese, you probably suck at it? Depends, if you can actually show them your good, then it should be good.

Well, if someone is like 「すごいね！上手、上手！」when you can read　日本, and 頑張る.
But, when your friends, etc... get frustrated at you because you can't fill out some legal form or something, then you're probably 'pretty good.'
Being fluent, you wouldn't need to ask anything, so that's just out of there.

Think about it, when they know you're a beginner, they don't expect anything from you.
If you speak pretty well, then they'll get frustrated when you "break the flow" that you had going.

Quote:Nowadays I don't over exaggerate my level anymore...
When the time comes when I've reached a good level. Then I can show them.

I'm just saying speak how you speak. Don't say anything unless they ask. They'll probably be able to tell where you are without having to tell them.

Quote:For me when it comes to Japanese, unno I'm doing a lot and improving a lot but i'm never kinda satisfied.

My stay in Japan is slowly coming to an end (gotta be home for school next semester!) and I'm definitely feeling a lack of satisfaction of my level. I've improved quite a bit over here, but I'm at a point where improving is difficult. Trying to get from Conversational to Business at the moment, I guess you could say.

I get yea, basically like when your at a certain level where you claim your good or fluent, they expect use to be able to use it. Like speaking,writing,etc. Lucky I'm focusing on writing now, a lot.

As for the improving, all it comes down for me is more immersion, more reading, more of everything actually. I'm confident that I can bring all my skills up to a good level, not sure about fluency but it doesn't matter. All that matters is improving and getting past my past difficulties in the language.

If you're fishing for compliments in Japan, there's something like a law of diminishing returns. The better your Japanese, the fewer compliments you'll get.

However, that's slowly changing as more and more people are used to foreigners speaking decent Japanese (even if only on TV).

The last time I was in Japan, about three years ago, my Japanese was much worse, and many people assumed that they had to speak English to me... which was usually pointless because even my poor Japanese was better than their English. And yes, I was getting the usual compliments. Today, I'm at the point where very few people insist on speaking Japanese. In fact today even my hairdresser who's lived in NYC for 15 years switched to speaking Japanese. And far fewer compliments. I take that as a measure of success.

But frankly, few Japanese people expect you to get really good, and most people would rule out native-level fluency. There's still a lingering 日本人論-influenced thinking especially among the older generation. For these people, the 'other' is a blue-eyed, light-haired white guy, most likely American, who will never be able to learn Japanese well, and even if he does, he doesn't have the こころ and will never truly understand Japanese culture.

Grinkers Wrote:I've had some interesting situations with expectations. My name and body is Japanese (3rd generation Japanese-American), so when I speak Japanese they're *expecting* me to be good to perfect. I just thought I'd mention that it's actually opposite for me.

Lol. My friend who's Canadian of Chinese extraction had a similar experience in Japan: everybody was expecting him to speak Japanese. So much for the Japanese being able to spot the Chinese. But then his host family asked him if he was comfortable eating with chopsticks...

Irixmark Wrote:If you're fishing for compliments in Japan, there's something like a law of diminishing returns. The better your Japanese, the fewer compliments you'll get.

However, that's slowly changing as more and more people are used to foreigners speaking decent Japanese (even if only on TV).

The last time I was in Japan, about three years ago, my Japanese was much worse, and many people assumed that they had to speak English to me... which was usually pointless because even my poor Japanese was better than their English. And yes, I was getting the usual compliments. Today, I'm at the point where very few people insist on speaking Japanese. In fact today even my hairdresser who's lived in NYC for 15 years switched to speaking Japanese. And far fewer compliments. I take that as a measure of success.

But frankly, few Japanese people expect you to get really good, and most people would rule out native-level fluency. There's still a lingering 日本人論-influenced thinking especially among the older generation. For these people, the 'other' is a blue-eyed, light-haired white guy, most likely American, who will never be able to learn Japanese well, and even if he does, he doesn't have the こころ and will never truly understand Japanese culture.

Grinkers Wrote:I've had some interesting situations with expectations. My name and body is Japanese (3rd generation Japanese-American), so when I speak Japanese they're *expecting* me to be good to perfect. I just thought I'd mention that it's actually opposite for me.

Lol. My friend who's Canadian of Chinese extraction had a similar experience in Japan: everybody was expecting him to speak Japanese. So much for the Japanese being able to spot the Chinese. But then his host family asked him if he was comfortable eating with chopsticks...

hmmm. I guess some don't expect 外国人 to get far in there language. For me people find it strange, cuz i'm　黒人. So it's even more out of place i guess. As for the compliments I agree. One of my japanese friends in the beginning was all like, awesome, your good. Now I don't get that anymore. I think it's because I kept going past her expectations. She might have been expecting me not to be able to write or read. But I can do those things nowadays.
I guess when you get fluent in the language, people won't compliment your Japanese, or just do it less and lesser.

I'd agree that it's pretty true that the greater your skills, the less you're going to get compliment. People will simply get used to the fact that you're good and speak to you as they would others. Criticism is also a sign that you're pretty decent. You won't get criticism if you're truly awful since it's obvious that you're not that serious about the language and it seems kinda pointless to explain errors. But if you speak well, then your errors stand out a lot since you otherwise don't make them. And then people will point them out.

Just like if a Japanese person speaking English is really basic level, making hundreds of errors, people won't bother to point it out. They'll just nod and do their best to understand. But if they speak English really well, then when they do make a mistake like using "a" when they should have used "the" or incorrectly using a plural form where it's a collective noun, then English speakers will correct them. Same principle for Japanese.

But I'd say there's also a level of extreme skill where you'll get compliments. When I see a foreigner writing Japanese at the level of a skilled author, then I certainly praise them a lot for it.

And yeah, there is a level of making fun of more skilled people One of my friends uses very intelligent vocabulary, but then will go and forget really common and basic words and I'll mock him when it happens, haha. It is also pretty frustrating when someone skilled at the language stumbles in a certain area, because you're so used to just speaking to them like you would any of your Japanese friends.

「お持ち帰りでしょうか」
Guessing on the kanji this would be something like, "Would you like this here or to go?" in English, right?

Aijin Wrote:I'd agree that it's pretty true that the greater your skills, the less you're going to get compliment. People will simply get used to the fact that you're good and speak to you as they would others. Criticism is also a sign that you're pretty decent. You won't get criticism if you're truly awful since it's obvious that you're not that serious about the language and it seems kinda pointless to explain errors. But if you speak well, then your errors stand out a lot since you otherwise don't make them. And then people will point them out.

Just like if a Japanese person speaking English is really basic level, making hundreds of errors, people won't bother to point it out. They'll just nod and do their best to understand. But if they speak English really well, then when they do make a mistake like using "a" when they should have used "the" or incorrectly using a plural form where it's a collective noun, then English speakers will correct them. Same principle for Japanese.

But I'd say there's also a level of extreme skill where you'll get compliments. When I see a foreigner writing Japanese at the level of a skilled author, then I certainly praise them a lot for it.

And yeah, there is a level of making fun of more skilled people One of my friends uses very intelligent vocabulary, but then will go and forget really common and basic words and I'll mock him when it happens, haha. It is also pretty frustrating when someone skilled at the language stumbles in a certain area, because you're so used to just speaking to them like you would any of your Japanese friends.

Nice to hear. Something to expect in the near future for me(I hope). Anyhow, I agree the more better you get at the language, the less compliments you'll get for your japanese because you can speak just like any other person that uses the language.

gyuujuice Wrote:「お持ち帰りでしょうか」
Guessing on the kanji this would be something like, "Would you like this here or to go?" in English, right?

It just means to go.

I don't know. When my Japanese was pretty much non-existant I never got complimented on it. But, now that I am conversational and can do just about anything without other's help (though still far from fluent) I get complimented quite a lot. Not sure what to make of it. I guess it means I still suck.

gyuujuice Wrote:「お持ち帰りでしょうか」
Guessing on the kanji this would be something like, "Would you like this here or to go?" in English, right?

yup

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid103115

Yeah, they're asking if you want it to go.
You'll also get 「お召し上がりでしょうか」which is akin to 'is there for here?'
So you'll get "is this for here?" or "is this to go?" but not "is this for here or to go?"

but my point was that it's a very common set phrase at (fast food) restaurants, so don't try and prove yourself competent, but then screw up on really simple, common things.

edit: yes, it should probably be こちらで~, but I'm in the same boat with thistime. I've heard it more times without it than I've heard it with.

Asriel Wrote:Yeah, they're asking if you want it to go.
You'll also get 「お召し上がりでしょうか」which is akin to 'is there for here?'
So you'll get "is this for here?" or "is this to go?" but not "is this for here or to go?"

Actually, 召し上がる is just an honorific verb that means 'to eat'. お召し上がりでしょうか means 'Will you eat?"

The phrase you're thinking of is longer, it's 「こちらでお召し上がりでしょうか?」. Of course, the meaning is "Will you eat here?" こちり literally refers to a directions (Will you be eating in this direction?), but in this case it just means 'here.'

Sometimes they'll ask you both. ｢こちらでうお召し上がりですか？お持ち帰りですか？」

You also get 店内でお召し上がりでしょうか a lot at restaurants, too...

You can respond with:
こちらで
店内で
持ち帰りで
テイクアウトで

Or just a はい if they offered up the one you wanted in the first place.

Related kotonoha:
http://kotonoha.cc/no/57285
http://kotonoha.cc/no/147992

Tzadeck Wrote:The phrase you're thinking of is longer, it's 「こちらでお召し上がりでしょうか?」.

お召し上がりでしょうか without any 店内で or こちらで　has an implied meaning of "Is this for here or to go?" I used to get really confused by that when people would ask me because I thought, why are they asking me if I'm eating. That's obviously why I came here! And I would always respond はい and they would always look at me with a confused look on their faces and then reconfirm with こちらで？ or 店内ですか？ So, I finally asked the hubs and he said it has the implied meaning of 店内でお召し上がりでしょうか？　お持ち帰りでしょうか？ without bothering to say the whole thing.　

thistime Wrote:お召し上がりでしょうか without any 店内で or こちらで　has an implied meaning of "Is this for here or to go?"

What kind of store was this? Just checked with the wife, and she said the type of situation where you would hear this is rather limited (and that was after her first reaction of no, nobody would say that without prefixing it with something.

One other permutation that's common with street vendors is すぐお召し上がりでしょうか when they want to know whether they should wrap it up or just hand it to you.

From my two minutes searching on the internet, I guess it is a pretty weird way to say it afterall. Though I do hear it a fair amount. It seems to be a fast food thing where speed is everything and they want to try to cut 2 seconds off the ordering time. And, come to think of it, the last two times I can remember being asked this were at McD's and Mr. Donuts.

http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/...1214856242

thistime Wrote:...And, come to think of it, the last two times I can remember being asked this were at McD's and Mr. Donuts.

granted, I don't eat out that much, and when I do, often falls into one of these two places, I guess I've heard it quite a bit.