I've a friend that's interested in learning some Japanese during his stay here (he's got another 2 years or so), but really only wants to spend the first year learning to kinda enhance his second year here.

He knows very little Japanese, though he does know the kana and maybe has a 200 word vocabulary. He's also slightly familiar with basic grammar structure though probably best for him to just start fresh there.

I'm wondering what everyone thinks a good study path for him would be? I think acquiring about 2000 words and a knowledge of basic and light intermediate grammar would be the best thing for him. So basically, he could run through the Core 2000 and Tae Kim and be good to go (for what he's wanting)? I thought also giving him my first box of White Rabbit kanji cards (I think 300 simple common kanji) would also give him a very light idea of kanji, maybe proving somewhat useful sometimes (入口 / 出口, etc.)

Again, all he wants to do is spend about 1 year studying enough to make his 2nd year here easier / more enjoyable. He's also very unlikely to go incredibly hardcore on it (I know a lot can be accomplished in a year, but I think he's willing to put about an hour a day into it). He's not looking for any kind of mastery of Japanese and doesn't have crazy expectations. He just wants to do some efficient studying (during his free time at work) to allow him to speak some lightly conversational Japanese.

It's also important to him to have a stopping point. Before this, one of the biggest things keeping him from studying was seeing how swamped I was in new stuff. I think the way I talk about it makes it sound never ending. heh.. anyways, he just wants a concise plan before he begins with a clear beginning and ending point.

Any thoughts? Advice of any kind is welcome.. whether you think it's a good idea or a waste of time, whether it'll even work, other resources he should look into, and so forth.

Considering the fact he is't going hardcore I would just reccomend that he just learn a kanji a day. (365 kanji is enough for basic needs) 2000 is a good amount for vocabulary and Tae Kim offers all the gramar one "needs".

Smartfm would be a great website for him. It's like facebook so it's approachable. There are 10 units designed for 10 months. The other two months could focus on grammar.

Basically it boils down to what he wants to do. So just show him a few options and let him choose.

I don't really get how one can live somewhere for 2 years and not be more motivated to learn the local language. Anyway, I guess anything he can learn will be helpful. Focusing on useful sentences for daily life is probably best. There isn't really any point in studying kanji at all if he has no intention of learning more than that.

The most useful kanji to 外国人 is "英語／日本語".
Maybe Codexus is right. Kanji may not be for him.

If he's living in Japan, isn't interested in "hardcore" learning, and wants to focus on oral communication, I would recommend him to listen to anything he has at hand in Japanese all the time.

He can just turn on the radio or tv, use podcasts and online radios, or just have a walk and pay attention to anything people around them are saying.

Those are activities that you can do all the time, don't have to feel like "study" and can actually be fun if you have a positive mindset.

Of course, I would remind them once in a while that the effects of lots of input are not immediate, but every minute listening to Japanese will pay off eventually.

Conversational skills, require a lot of listening and practicing. I've found the more I immerse myself the more easier it's becoming to correct my own mistakes in Japanese. I believe immersion is the key to better skills in the language, the most vital obviously in any language.

What does light conversational mean for this person? Is she talking about being able to say just enough to survive? (maybe to know how to get to the bathroom, how to order food, how to buy tickets?) Or is she wanting to talk about things like politics, sports, travel, or any other topics? If it's the second, unfortunately I don't think its going to happen in a year with light study, especially with just an hour a day.

What is a light conversation anyway?

"How's the weather today?"
"It's sunny"
"Great! Thanks, see you!"

"I like sports!"
"Me. too!"
"Bye!"
"Bye!"

I'm not trying to come across as a ass but this it's going to be hard to get enough in a year for conversations that last longer than 3 or 4 sentences.

However I say get a textbook that focuses on a wide range of topics. For example, this one horrible textbook is called "Nakama" and its mainly for college kids. So the first 4 chapters is constructed around the school and campus. Things like "what time do you come to class?" "I study at the library for 1 hour every day" Yeah, this gives some useful grammar structure but it lacks varied vocabulary. Basically if she completes that textbook, she will be able to have light conversations ONLY ABOUT SCHOOL and a few other things. So get a useful text book. This might be easier if she knows what she wants to talk about. If she is planning on talking to people at work then she needs to learn the vocab at her work place. If she wants to talk at bars, she needs to learn to talk about....I don't know but if she knows where she is going to be talking the most there might be some vocabulary that is better for her situation.

Personally, I don't see the point in learning a language if you're don't
intend on going hardcore. It sounds like your friend wants to learn the language
without putting in any real effort.

Your friend is already in Japan. I'm sure many of the people working hard on these forums would kill to live in Japan. Really, it seems like a wasted opportunity (in terms of language learning).

Also, language learning is hardly something that you can control (especially
if you're living in the country of your target language). It happens all around
you. I don't understand how anyone can restrict japanese learning to one hour in
Japan (since EVERYTHING is in Japanese). Or maybe your friend only hangs around
English speakers and doesn't socialize with Japanese.

Your friend might as well learn hiragana/katakana and just leave it at
that. At least, he'll be able to pronounce any word in Japanese. If he's
lucky enough to pick up words in conversation, good for him/her.

Also, maybe your friend should try joining some activity clubs (in Japanese).
Even if he/she doesn't know enough Japanese to communicate well, the activities
would motivate your friend to learn more Japanese.

They wont need to learn hardly any kanji, just like 女 and 男 for the toilets, 入り口　出口 etc

Pimsleur is a good place to start as it gives you some phrases, vocab and listening practice. For vocab I wouldn't do the smart fm list, you wanna learn the words you want to learn, not what smartfm thinks you should learn.

Grammar... a textbook is probably a good idea, but skip to the casual forms early as that's what they'll be using most of the time.

Quote:What is a light conversation anyway?

"How's the weather today?"
"It's sunny"
"Great! Thanks, see you!"

No, I think a light conversation is more like the following:

"Do you think Tanaka is a hard worker?"
"No, I don't think so. What do you think of him?"

"Can you tell me how to get to Narita Airport?"
"Sure. Get on the marunouchi line going towards tokyo. At the ??? station, transfer to the ??? line, which goes to Narita."
"Thank you very much."

Heavy conversation:
"Do you think the tax rate is too high?"
"Doesn't everybody?"
"Why do you think the tax rate is too high?"
"Nearly half my paycheck goes to the government! Have you seen kind of money they waste!?"

chamcham Wrote:Personally, I don't see the point in learning a language if you're don't
intend on going hardcore. It sounds like your friend wants to learn the language
without putting in any real effort.

Your friend is already in Japan. I'm sure many of the people working hard on these forums would kill to live in Japan. Really, it seems like a wasted opportunity (in terms of language learning).

Also, language learning is hardly something that you can control (especially
if you're living in the country of your target language). It happens all around
you. I don't understand how anyone can restrict japanese learning to one hour in
Japan (since EVERYTHING is in Japanese). Or maybe your friend only hangs around
English speakers and doesn't socialize with Japanese.

Your friend might as well learn hiragana/katakana and just leave it at
that. At least, he'll be able to pronounce any word in Japanese. If he's
lucky enough to pick up words in conversation, good for him/her.

Also, maybe your friend should try joining some activity clubs (in Japanese).
Even if he/she doesn't know enough Japanese to communicate well, the activities
would motivate your friend to learn more Japanese.

I agree with you exactly. Man if I was living in japan, I'd get better x3 then I am now. 1 major fact is because immersion. But some people who go over there only stay within the 外人 circle(not to sound negative here, don't intend that) but it's true a lot of the time. I listen/read as much as possible now and do a lot of srs. My progress is awesome and I've yet to reach 10months of fully learning japanese. (it's like 9.7months lol, yes exact decimals.)

I basically know what it takes to become fluent I remember in the beginning stages I didn't know where to go, how to learn, basically nothing. Now I feel I know what to do to progress even farther and farther into japanese.

caivano Wrote:Grammar... a textbook is probably a good idea, but skip to the casual forms early as that's what they'll be using most of the time.

Very good point.

Most "standard" resources start with "です／ます". I don't know if your friend wants to focus on formal or colloquial speech, but at least he should know from the beginning what are the differences, and when to use what.

Thanks everyone for the advice!

Codexus Wrote:I don't really get how one can live somewhere for 2 years and not be more motivated to learn the local language.

He's actually not really interested in language study at all. And I can't really fault him for that... sitting in front of a computer for hours a day or pouring over books about something you're not really interested in doesn't sound very fun. He moved here and planned on being here for only one year, but he's lengthening his stay. After he leaves Japan, he's going back to a full career in the US that has nothing to do at all with Japan or Japanese.

I'm actually overjoyed that he's expressed interest in wanting to learn at all. He seems serious and I've known him for several years, so I know that he is going to go through with it. I can, as well, completely understand why he wouldn't want to sink 2 years of significant study time into learning something that he would have zero intention (and almost zero opportunity) to use in the future. He's not overly interested in Japanese media and probably wouldn't travel back to Japan more than once or twice in his lifetime.

I know a lot of us on this forum are rather fond of language study, but it's honestly not for everyone. From his perspective, it's like this: he came to Japan (convinced by his friends, mostly me) to spend a year or two of "calm down time" before jumping head first into his career. Not only that, but for those of you that have lived here (especially in a city the size of Nagoya), you know that Japanese isn't even close to essential in your every day life. He has plenty of friends and can go to plenty of places and do lots of things without ever needing Japanese. So the fact that he's willing to take a few steps outside of that bubble is pretty great, I think.

gyuujuice Wrote:Smartfm would be a great website for him. It's like facebook so it's approachable. There are 10 units designed for 10 months. The other two months could focus on grammar.

First, thanks for the advice. I actually suggested he go through about 5 of the kanji cards a day and just learn the English meanings for them.. that's what I did my first few months here (before finding RTK) and it was never really a hard work load and was pretty fun. It's just to give him a very light knowledge of Kanji. But, as Codexus said, it might not even be worthwhile at all so I might just drop that part of it.

Also about smartfm... I agree, but he doesn't have internet access at work which is where he'll be doing most of his studying. He's also familiar with Anki and doesn't mind using the program. He's a smart guy and realizes the benefits of efficient studying. I have a feeling smartfm might be a bit demotivating in its...accessability. heh

Sebastian Wrote:If he's living in Japan, isn't interested in "hardcore" learning, and wants to focus on oral communication, I would recommend him to listen to anything he has at hand in Japanese all the time.

I think a lot of what made studying Japanese a bit unapproachable for him was that there didn't seem to be any set limits, so it just seemed like this thing that might consume him and his free time. I was a bit inspired by Basic English for this idea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_English). I think by having a finite amount of things to study, it will really motivate him as he can see the end in sight.

I found the problem with listening is that it doesn't do much good if you haven't already studied a lot. He lives in Japan and is surrounded by Japanese people at work all day having conversations in Japanese. I'm hesitant to suggest that he spends time watching/listening to something that he understands almost zero percent of. I'm not sure what good it would do without a lot of study first. To be honest, I myself have never really picked up much of anything new from listening practice - it just reinforces what I have learned myself.

That said, my friend's also my roommate and I always subject him to Japanese television and movies. We often sit and watch lots of Japanese tv and just sorta make jokes about how ridiculous it is. So I think he gets a decent amount of listening practice that way - at least, just for hearing how the language sounds.

bizarrejosh Wrote:What does light conversational mean for this person?

I should have explained more in the initial post about what that meant for them. Sorry about that. Also, it's a guy.

Anyway, light conversational just means being able to express things on a fairly basic level. So here's a few things it would be good for him to be able to say:

"What kind of food do you like?"
"I like X, X, X. I don't like X"

"Where are you from?"
"I'm from X country and X state. It's a quiet/loud/fun place."

"How long have you been in Japan?"
"I've been in Japan for X years."

"I can't speak Japanese well, so speak very slowly and easily please."
"I don't understand what you said."
"I am lost."
"Where are the X?" (at a store)

Like I said, he doesn't have crazy expectations. So basically, 3-4 sentence conversations are totally fine. And you're not coming off as an ass... I think most of us here have higher expectations because we really enjoy studying Japanese. For him, though, he just wants to learn a bit and be able to express some simple stuff.

Of course, these things are rather simple. But maybe if he spends the first year memorizing the simple grammar structures and 2000 or so vocabulary, his ability of expression will grow through the second year and the conversations will be slightly longer. And at that point, maybe it'll progress into more of a conversation like jcdietz03 said.

Also, my friend is a rather outgoing guy. I have the feeling he's not going to have much problem using the things he learns.

chamcham Wrote:Personally, I don't see the point in learning a language if you're don't intend on going hardcore. It sounds like your friend wants to learn the language without putting in any real effort.....

Or maybe your friend only hangs around English speakers and doesn't socialize with Japanese.

Yeah, I tend to agree that it's a wasted opportunity and am really glad to see him actually showing some interest. I know it's hard for us to understand, but he just didn't have any interest in studying languages before coming here. Some people don't want to devote several hours every day to studying something they're not so interested in. But he thinks it would be fun to use it just a little bit and maybe heighten his experience here.

As far as restricting it to studying for one hour a day - I mean, he's willing to sit at a desk for one hour a day and cram a bunch of grammar and vocabulary into his brain. Doing anki drills, reading grammar guides, etc. Also, he'll probably do some anki reviews on the train as he goes to work so most of his study time at work will be learning new stuff. The other 23 hours a day, yeah, he's in Japan so he'll get a lot of incidental practice.

And of course, as my friend doesn't speak Japanese, his friends tend to speak English. Though he does have a lot of Japanese friends who speak English, too. I think a big motivating factor for him has been when I invite him out with me and my Japanese friends. He usually just has to hang out there and not do much because he doesn't speak Japanese. Also, often at the schools he works at, they'll have some gatherings and after each one, his motivation to learn increases. He always finds himself in a situation where he can't be any part of the conversation.

I did really like your idea about activity clubs, though. I think most of his motivation comes from being in situations and not able to participate much - so that'd be a great idea. I've never really joined anything like this here myself, though. Not even sure how to go about searching for one. heh.. I'll ask some people I know here for advice.

ta12121 Wrote:1 major fact is because immersion. But some people who go over there only stay within the 外人 circle

This is definitely true. It's very easy to get stuck in a circle of friends that only speak English. Within that circle, it's actually a bit awkward if you're speaking Japanese with the Japanese people you're hanging out with there. Been there, done that. So you have to be sorta mindful of it and try not to surround yourself with this situation. Basically, without trying to go out and find Japanese friends who are willing to speak to you in Japanese, you will find yourself surrounded by this English bubble. I think most people aren't so used to having to "try" to form certain types of friends, that friendships happen more organically. But I've found, through my 3 years of living here, that all of my Japanese friendships have had to be forged.

But anyways, ta12121, from reading your posts, you're a bit of an outlier. You seem to study like crazy and consume Japanese voraciously. That's totally cool, but not everyone has your passion for Japanese (language?) study.

Anyway, Japan's really accomodating of foreigners that just want to spend a year or two here and can't speak any Japanese. It's an easy trap to fall into and I'm thrilled that my friend is willing to step outside of that comfort zone. At the same time, he's a pragmatic guy and wants to just have some set limits before heading into this thing.

@zanzou
Pretty much, I spend most of my time in Japanese if possible. I do go out with friends in stuff but I'm trying to find a go in-between. Like having a Japanese book to read on the side or something when I'm outside.
I love the Japanese language, what other reason should any study it for?(i'm sure there are other reasons for everyone) but for me it's all about getting good in this language. It's ironic but I kinda forgot what the reason why I'm so into the language, I kinda feel that there isn't any reason why I should stop, my progress has been awesome but still not at the level where I'm satisfied.

I will post my deck stats soon, as i will be reaching 10 full months of studying japanese (not counting rtk1+3 that took 3 months, cuz all I did was kanji, not much else). Once I've reached a certain amount of cards in my sentence/vocab/production deck. I will switch to 100% monolingual, my sentences are already in monolingual form but I mean using japanese to look-up even more Japanese. Don't get me wrong I can understand japanese by itself. But the terms I don't get if I can look it up on a monolingual dictionary(right now i use rikichan). I can excel to the next level. (as for understanding increasing, I'm going to incorporate music/podcasts/news into my srsing and I'm sure that will excel my listening even more/reading).

I'm going to research more on the speaking aspect of japanese. Like how to get to conversational level, then proficient, then semi-fluent,fluent and lastly is native-level.
I'm not worried about reading/understanding at all anymore. As for writing the only way to get better is obviously read/understand/write a lot! Speaking improves when understanding/reading improves. But just like writing, you need to practice speak to get a flow. I think aside from formal stuff I still have trouble.

Which is basically my point... my friend's not so inclined to completely absorb himself in it and everyone has different reasons for studying. He doesn't want to (spend the incredible amount of time required to) read Japanese or understand Japanese television/movies, or talk about world politics, etc... he just wants to have the lightest of conversations with people he meets here.

zanzou Wrote:Which is basically my point... my friend's not so inclined to completely absorb himself in it and everyone has different reasons for studying. He doesn't want to (spend the incredible amount of time required to) read Japanese or understand Japanese television/movies, or talk about world politics, etc... he just wants to have the lightest of conversations with people he meets here.

ohh. Then he really doesn't need to concern himself with kanji. Best to stick with basic phrases/communication. Obviously it wouldn't hurt to listen to Japanese, as that's required to speak it, even basic-wise. I'd still suggestion learning 仮名. it will help him pronounce the words in Japanese easier if he knows them.

Original post:

zanzou Wrote:He knows very little Japanese, though he does know the kana

And luckily, he's already gotten a strong anti-romaji streak in him.

I think there's some flaw to learning by basic phrases. If you just memorize some phrases, you're stuck within those very limited structures.

But if you give yourself a solid foundation of basic fundamental grammar, then a good understanding of a limited vocabulary set that can be used to describe more advanced topics that you don't know the word for, you can have slightly more dynamic conversations. So when you find yourself in a problem of expression, at least you can give SOME idea of what you mean. For example:

Very simple words and simple grammar that can be used to describe a complex thing. The other person might be able to understand it.
A: Then the doctor used a.... um, I don't know the word.
B: What kind of thing is it?
A: It's a tool a doctor uses to listen to your heart.
B: A stethoscope?
A: Heh, maybe.. I don't know that word, but maybe that's it.

So I think a bright person could use this limited set of information that they understand well and use it quite effectively. Also, it takes significantly less time to study this information. So in many ways, it seems like a better use of my friend's time here to learn to express himself in this way, then get out there and use it than it does for him to learn more advanced, specialized vocabulary..

I also think that by limiting himself, he will know very quickly when he can't express something. When I hit a wall, I often find myself searching through my mind for that perfect word or phrase that's the correct way to say what I want in Japanese and it really bothers me when I can't recall it. It can almost kill the flow of conversation. Instead, if you used this limited set, you would know the ways you could express your thoughts and avoid more complex expressions. If the word didn't come to mind quickly, with only a 2000 or so vocabulary, you'd KNOW that you're not going to recall it. heh...

But maybe I'm off somewhere there...

Edit: One more thing. It's rather amazing what can be accomplished with a limited vocabulary set and grammar rules. Take a look at the Simple English Wikipedia (http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_..._Wikipedia). I'm not suggesting my friend would obtain this kind of expressive ability, just as a framework for what might be possible. Though this is speaking of English - there isn't (to my knowledge) a simplified subset of Japanese.

zanzou Wrote:

Codexus Wrote:I don't really get how one can live somewhere for 2 years and not be more motivated to learn the local language.

He's actually not really interested in language study at all. And I can't really fault him for that... sitting in front of a computer for hours a day or pouring over books about something you're not really interested in doesn't sound very fun. He moved here and planned on being here for only one year, but he's lengthening his stay. After he leaves Japan, he's going back to a full career in the US that has nothing to do at all with Japan or Japanese.

I'm actually overjoyed that he's expressed interest in wanting to learn at all. He seems serious and I've known him for several years, so I know that he is going to go through with it. I can, as well, completely understand why he wouldn't want to sink 2 years of significant study time into learning something that he would have zero intention (and almost zero opportunity) to use in the future. He's not overly interested in Japanese media and probably wouldn't travel back to Japan more than once or twice in his lifetime.

I know a lot of us on this forum are rather fond of language study, but it's honestly not for everyone. From his perspective, it's like this: he came to Japan (convinced by his friends, mostly me) to spend a year or two of "calm down time" before jumping head first into his career. Not only that, but for those of you that have lived here (especially in a city the size of Nagoya), you know that Japanese isn't even close to essential in your every day life. He has plenty of friends and can go to plenty of places and do lots of things without ever needing Japanese. So the fact that he's willing to take a few steps outside of that bubble is pretty great, I think.

I'm gonna get flamed I'm sure.

Although I applaud your friend's desire to at least make an attempt to learn Japanese(much better than the people who go there and just don't give a crap about learning anything), I'm still gonna sound like an ass, and agree with the "wasted opportunity" mindset.

I agree that language learning isn't for everyone, even more so if you have no true desire/passion to learn one. I just don't understand your friend's mindset, hehe. If he's not that interested in Japan(or just the media only you said?) for the most part, and has no intentions of needing Japan or Japanese later in life, why lengthen the stay for another year? I understand the "calm-down time" thing but it still seems to me like one could spend it doing something more enjoyable/useful. Or at the least in a place that you have some interest in.

Just an annoyance of mine. While I'm not accusing your friend of anything, I just read so many stories and blogs of people "taking a breather" after college/whatever, and taking a free ride in Japan for 2-3 years and living comfortably in a little gaijin bubble. Just irks me a bit when I see so many people who would give an arm and leg just for the opportunity to live there and continue learning. While I know this isn't specifically a Japan only thing, it's a pretty major one, even if it is getting tougher to get into those easy-ride opportunities nowadays.

/end semi-rant

Regardless, I'd give advice but there's a lot of solid suggestions already. I would really focus on listening practice and basic conversational skills/grammar structures. Know kana, get a general base of vocab to cover a variety of everyday situations(ordering food, getting directions, etc.). I wouldn't even bother much with kanji to be honest. If he has no desire to read and write, chances are, the kanji/words that he sees over and over again everyday like 入口 and 出口 can probably be deciphered easily enough. Find out the reading, and chances are, with seeing them so much, he'll remember the most vital words just by seeing it over and over.

Despite my earlier rant, I wish your friend the best of luck. I really do applaud his desire to at least make an attempt to learn the basics, rather than be an ignorant gaijin for 2 years.

2 years, man would I be fluent if i was living there. At least your friend has the interest, I know a few of my friends that say "Yea I'll learn it" but they never get anything done. And they still expect to go there. I know you can go to japan without knowing Japanese but the experience goes down so much. Can't read signs, can't talk, can't understand, can't write. Man would that be boring.

Although they find it surprising i spend a lot of time in it, i have a strong feeling they will be asking me a few years down the road. "So how did you get fluent in Japanese?" It's also funny how my friends say to me "Speak in front of us" and i usual say nop, no reason you wouldn't understand anything. And then some of them say yea you can only understand and read but you can't speak it. in my head I'm like(are they serious, they don't know shi..... about it, and they still talk big?)
sorry about my ranting.

Ironic part that very friend is asking me about japan and about learning it but he wants to have someone help him learn it(japanese girl) . In my head i'm like(urgh, so many guys only have this reason). that reasoning sometimes is going to end up in failure in terms of learning the language(they would be able to speak, but not write or read which is a huge downside if living in japan-full-time)

@Offshore You can't really fault my friend. I know a lot of people want to be here, but my friend had the opportunity and came here. No, he isn't in love with Japan and Japanese culture - but he enjoys it here. Japan can be enjoyed to a great extent without knowing Japanese. Tons of people do it... and yeah, he likes Japan well enough - just doesn't really want to consume Japanese media (reading comics, books, and watching television all require massive amounts of studying before you can really get much enjoyment out of them in my opinion).

Anyway, he had a great opportunity to see a part of the world and a different culture. So yeah, I realize that some people would love the chance to live here but can't - but you also can't fault my friend for enjoying the situation he was lucky enough to find himself in. But he's also realistic - his life is back in the US, which he'll continue after Japan. Why is he sticking around? He's enjoying his time here and isn't eager to get back to the grind. Also, maybe he wants to save up a little money for when he returns.

Anyway, thank you for your suggestions. I didn't open this thread so people could flame my friend. heh.. he's told me he's willing to put an hour in per day for about a year to study Japanese and I want to help him get the most out of that that he can.

So yeah, the title was about studying for a year and trying to obtain some level of light conversational ability. Can we please keep it on topic?

zanzou Wrote:@Offshore You can't really fault my friend. I know a lot of people want to be here, but my friend had the opportunity and came here. No, he isn't in love with Japan and Japanese culture - but he enjoys it here. Japan can be enjoyed to a great extent without knowing Japanese. Tons of people do it... and yeah, he likes Japan well enough - just doesn't really want to consume Japanese media (reading comics, books, and watching television all require massive amounts of studying before you can really get much enjoyment out of them in my opinion).

etc..

FWIW, I completely agree with you. Although living in Japan I'd want to get to at least a conversational ability (which I've done) I totally understand not having the desire to reach total fluency. It's not a bad thing, all of us find ourselves in different situations.

I'm moving from Japan to HK next month, and I've no intention on ever getting fluent in Cantonese, just because for me its most likely not worth the time investment. I want to keep studying Japanese for my own pleasure and to be able to talk with Japanese people in HK (and just to be a bit different, Japanese speaking western expats in HK are a bit rarer!).

Anyway, I know you wanted to get this back on topic, so I'll just leave it there ...