bladethecoder Wrote:I have the same username on lang-8, and three different people have called me "bladethecoder-san", "bladethecoderさん" and "Ms. bladethecoder". If マークさん sounds odd, then what of those? =P

Like super odd?

Actually, to me, Ms. gladethecoder sounds the worst. I don't know why but bladethecoderさん and bladethecoder-san sound OK.

masaman Wrote:「さん」 is a good way to make some mental personal space, so she might just want some space with you. Actually I think it's just infrequent collocation of words sounds funny some times. I've made people laugh so many times by using strange word combinations or out of place vocabulary. It's just the word マーク and さん are not a very common combination. If you were 山田太郎, 太郎さん wouldn't sound strange.

There is also the question of personal space too. Being a westerner, your "mental personal space" is probably a lot closer than the one an average Japanese person have, assuming you are not in Osaka. If you are the frank guy in the company, and everybody is on first name terms with you, and only this one person call you 'Mr. Doe', then that will sound a bit funny too.

Very helpful explanations, masaman! You shared some insights from both the perspective of the girl who uses さん when addressing me and those who thought it was funny.

For better or worse, I suppose my mental personal space is more far removed than the average Westerner. I was raised by a very traditional Filipino-Chinese mom, which means that I'm used to constant formalities and a comfortable social distance (not to mention, an excessive amount of social pressure). Either way, I haven't had many significant problems due to this, and any problems are usually resolved after it is apparent that I'm not a typical American stereotype. What have your experiences with and expectations of Asian Americans been like?

Vileru, in my case, it wasn't that my colleagues weren't using ～さん, I just find the use of first names for foreigners and last names for Japanese an unnecessary and unfortunate mix of customs.

Also, my name happened to be a comical disaster in Japan. Tora-san? My other given name translates as "fatso". I'm quite slim, so my school friends thought Debu-chan (Little Miss Fatso?) was an excellent nickname. Yeah ... excellent... And my last name in katakana turns out to be the same as a Chinese last name, which confused everyone. I must look some % Asian as I found myself frequently having to explain that my father isn't Chinese. And at work some insisted on referring to me as "~sensei" instead of "~san", so it was a weird combination of my first name with a supposedly respectful title. Can you imagine being introduced as "Dr. Sally" or "Professor Bob"? Now how about Dr. Fatso? What a mess! lol

As for your story: it's not uncommon to use "san" with foreign first names, so I'd be surprised if that alone was amusing. Could it be because マーク is an actual word, so it sounds funny? I suspect it's more about subtle social interaction, as Masaman suggests. How do they refer to each other? If they are close and use nicknames, or use only first names, then calling you ~san might have felt a bit out of place (somehow too stiff or too Japanese).

I wouldn't ever be offended, though. It's almost always good intentions with sometimes awkward results. It can be awkward for foreigners too. Should we try to match the culture of the language or the culture of the country we're in? At my Tokyo office, for eg, if the language switched to English, I wasn't sure how to refer to my Japanese colleagues. While Goto-san sounds perfectly normal in Japanese, calling him Mr. Goto in English felt weirdly formal (especially if the meeting is otherwise on a first-name basis). But calling my Japanese bosses by their first names (if I even knew them) felt awfully cheeky. And I think using ~san in an English conversation sounds goofy. I ended up just asking them to let me know how they'd prefer to be addressed in different situations. I don't like feeling stressed about protocol.

Thora Wrote:Tora-san?

Thought it would be ソラ in Japanese.

Quote:And at work some insisted on referring to me as "~sensei" instead of "~san",

No 先輩?

Thora Wrote:I ended up just asking them to let me know how they'd prefer to be addressed in different situations. I don't like feeling stressed about protocol.

Thora, out of curiosity, how did they answer you on how to address them when speaking in English?

bladethecoder Wrote:I have the same username on lang-8, and three different people have called me "bladethecoder-san", "bladethecoderさん" and "Ms. bladethecoder". If マークさん sounds odd, then what of those? =P

yudanさん is pretty common for me.

I have "oak" (in portuguese "carvalho") on my name.

So, hum, 柏カルリナ？

@vileru
Cool, it helped.

I have a couple of Vietnamese American friends who grew up in Texas, one is very talkative, pretty aggressive, don't give a shit type, the other one, his younger brother, also talk shit all the time but he's more amicable. I used to know a Malaysian American who worked for Lockheed Martin as a rocket scientist, and well, he IS an engineer type. Calm, not flashy, smart and organized. I also know a bunch of HongKong-neese Americans (If such category even exists), who are pretty laid back and I went to so many restaurants with them. So, mmm, I don't really have any expectations of Asian Americans except for Honkeys love food, and Vietnamese guys talk shit all the time. But the latter may be because they are Texan.

@Thora
Your name sounds like ソーラさん in Japanese I believe? Which I think sounds good. It's actually not uncommon to use さん and せんせい with first names in general. My mom always call her in-laws with their first name + さん, and if you went to, say, a family owned Karate Dojo or something, and there were 山田太郎先生 and 山田次郎先生, 太郎先生 and 次郎先生 would make perfect sense. It just doesn't happen very often in work situations.

I thought calling J people like Goto-san or first name + san in English meetings is like the standard practice in 外資 companies in Tokyo? At least that's how English speaking expats and I were doing and we never got ourselves in trouble, though it may sound goofy.

@masaman

Wow, my experience in California differs a lot from your accounts! That makes sense though, considering the large Asian population in California. There are places, such as Chinatown in San Francisco and Little Saigon in Westminster, where people (especially elders) can spend decades without needing to learn English. In fact, I've been to restaurants in Little Saigon that have only Vietnamese menus. It's interesting, and even hilarious, to imagine some straight-talking, southern-drawling Asian-Americans living elsewhere in the country. Anyway, have you ever been to California, especially Japan Town in San Francisco or Little Tokyo in LA?

Unfortunately, they don't have the drawl, they all speak perfectly standard American English, but yeah, it's totally no California here. I've been to LA and SF a couple of times, but don't think I've been to Little Tokyo or Japan Town. In LA, I hung out on the east side of the city and hit a J super market called Mitsuwa and J Restaurant called Blue Marlin which I liked so much I ended up going there 2 nights in a row. Uni pasta rocks. Things are a lot more diverse there for sure. I felt almost like I was in Japan in that super market with all the hardcore Japanese おばさん around and stuff. I need to move out.

groovee_grl Wrote:Thora, out of curiosity, how did they answer you on how to address them when speaking in English?

Not sure how universal my experience is - my offices had more stuffy old suits than young hip creative types. :-) The guys had mixed views on using first names. They agreed it'd be better to have a uniform approach, though, which ended up being to follow the lead of the customer/clients.

Most foreigners expected to use "Goto-san", so that was the most common. It's actually convenient b/c it avoids the first name issue, mixing "John" with "Goto-san" seems less awkward than with "Mr. Goto", and remembering only one name is easier. But if the client started with "Mr. Goto", we'd roll with that. First names were rarely used - maybe with guys they'd known for years or guys we had taken out drinking. ;-) (I was more comfortable using first names in those situations once I felt like I had received their approval.)

Foreigners usually got "Mr." until they invited us to use first names. (Including Germans, French, etc. if the meetings were in English.) When using first names, the J guys sometimes added ~san, but not always. Some foreigners who do a lot of work in Japanese were addressed as "Smith-san" even in English. So we'd occasionally have a mix of "Smith-san" and "Mr. Brown" in one meeting. So it was a flexible hodge-podge.

I Wrote:And I think using ~san in an English conversation sounds goofy.

I should probably clarify this. I think it's perfectly fine to use foreign language titles - especially if someone prefers to be addressed as Mr., ~san, Herr, Monsieur, etc. And there are the benefits I mentioned above. The situations I find odd are, for eg:

*Foreigners referring to each other with ~san in English.
*Insisting on adding ~san to Japanese names even though they're happy to use first name only or "Mr." (whether living abroad, in expat circles or doing intl business).
*Foreigners expecting to be called ~san in English (in most circumstances).

I tend to use English translations of foreign titles (unless someone specifies a preference). I'm curious to know if any non-English speakers find that unusual. I guess I'd rather be addressed as "~san" than "Ms." in Japanese.

yudantaiteki Wrote:yudanさん is pretty common for me.

interesting abbr.

@kazalee and masaman:
ソラ　and　ソーラ　sound kind of pretty to me. 'Sky'? (hippy parents maybe) haha
I inherited my name and for some reason the pronunciation is closer to 't' than 'th'. But I might try something like that when I move back to Japan (if masaman thinks it sounds okay to Japanese ears.)

edited:

masaman Wrote:It's actually not uncommon to use さん and せんせい with first names in general ... It just doesn't happen very often in work situations.

Sure, I realize Japanese first names are sometimes used. (A piano teacheris another eg.) I just wasn't keen on being the only person at work called by their first name ...and that it's often applied to foreigners without asking. I'd like to choose exactly what goes on my hanko, what name I use for work and what hiragana is on my business cards. :-)

I asked my 先生 this very question, and she said it's not common for foreigners to adopt a Japanese name. However she did unofficially adopt the name "Jane" when she came here, so I told her I want a Japanese name. She decided that I look like a 春樹. It's cute, I like it. So from now one during class that's how I'm referred to.