Jarvik7 Wrote:You couldn't use it as your legal name anyways unless you naturalized, since you have no identification from your home country proving that those are your name kanji.

It is, however, possible to have a kanji name printed on your alien registration card beneath your real name if you can establish a history of using it as a 通称名.

I thought your name was IceCream...

Jarvik7 Wrote:The modern reaction would be someone thinking you're creepy for being obsessed enough to change your name. You couldn't use it as your legal name anyways unless you naturalized, since you have no identification from your home country proving that those are your name kanji.

Does this apply for people of Asian descent as well? I'm not worried about having a legal Japanese name, but I'm curious whether it's convenient to adopt one for social or economic reasons.

It is never normal in Japan to make up a name or make up kanji for your name, regardless of your ethnic background.

If you have a Chinese name, you can continue to use the characters in Japanese. They can be read either as the Chinese name (katakanized, of course), or with the Japanese pronunciations of the characters if that seems better. (I think the former is more normal.)

But unless you come from a country where Chinese characters are used, no one in Japan will expect you to have Chinese characters for your name, nor will they expect you to be introducing yourself as Suzuki or Tanaka.

yudantaiteki Wrote:It is never normal in Japan to make up a name or make up kanji for your name, regardless of your ethnic background.

In my understanding it is a fairly common practice among zainichi Koreans who are looking to mitigate their crappy situation.

JimmySeal Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:It is never normal in Japan to make up a name or make up kanji for your name, regardless of your ethnic background.

In my understanding it is a fairly common practice among zainichi Koreans who are looking to mitigate their crappy situation.

Why would Koreans have to make up kanji when they already have them?

Quote:There's a book on this subject by Nobuo Sato Write your name in Kanji. "Robert" is one of the featured names (but not in the sample pages, unfortunately).

I own this book, and it includes 16 candidates for Robert (18 if you include two kana renditions). In English, the name Robert apparently stems from the old English "fame and bright." Nobuo Sato's book transcribes the name several ways, ranging from purely phonetic kanji to "phonetic and eulogistic" to "attention-getting transcription" to a purely "denotative" transcription.

An example of purely phonetic: 呂芭阿渡. An example of purely "denotative": 名声燦然 (meisei-sanzen, "fame and bright"). An example of "phonetic and eulogistic" -- an amalgam of phonetic and meaning -- is: 良磨邪宕 ("one who polishes precious stones elegantly", or so says the author -- I'm not quite sure how those kanji add up to that meaning). One of the "attention-getting" entries -- designed to be funny, I guess? -- is: 驢馬蛙妬 ("donkey who is jealous of a frog").

Quote:You couldn't use it as your legal name anyways unless you naturalized, since you have no identification from your home country proving that those are your name kanji.

Writing in 1996, Nobuo Sato asserts (page 8): "...you might even have [your name] engraved into a hanko (a seal or stamp always required in lieu of a handwritten signature for official or business-related documents) and officially register it with your city hall. They, in turn, will issue a certificate legitimizing your seal, and the characters it bears, as legally valid and binding on any official document to which you affix it."

The book doesn't say much about the author's credentials, though I assume the person is a native Japanese, and the author's address is listed as Toride City, Ibaraki Prefecture, Japan. I did a Google search, and while I found a figure skater and a Harvard business professor with the same, I couldn't find any more info about the author of this book. Perhaps this info about the hanko is out of date?

The author does warn you that a Japanized name will "delight" many of your Japanese friends and "disturb" others, and that some people may "disparage it for its unconventionality." The author dismisses these objections, saying they are "being blinded to their own cultural heritage by narrow-mindedness" (p. 15).

I have no idea how reliable a book this is, but it certainly is an interesting read.

Womacks23 Wrote:

JimmySeal Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:It is never normal in Japan to make up a name or make up kanji for your name, regardless of your ethnic background.

In my understanding it is a fairly common practice among zainichi Koreans who are looking to mitigate their crappy situation.

Why would Koreans have to make up kanji when they already have them?

Some people don't like being treated as foreigners after they've lived in a country for numerous generations.

JimmySeal Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:It is never normal in Japan to make up a name or make up kanji for your name, regardless of your ethnic background.

In my understanding it is a fairly common practice among zainichi Koreans who are looking to mitigate their crappy situation.

Furthermore, Chinese and Koreans in the entertainment industry, especially actors and models, sometimes adopt Japanese names. This is why I was curious whether it was a social norm or not.

Last night, I asked my girlfriend (who's Japanese) whether Chinese and Korean people adopt Japanese names, and she told me that no one does that. Then, I pointed out a few examples of famous entertainers who've adopted Japanese, such as Emi Suzuki. However, my girlfriend replied that adopting a professional name is a common practice, and it's advisable for Korean and Chinese entertainers to adopt professional names for marketing purposes.

Therefore, unless you're of East Asian heritage and are socially oppressed or plan to become an entertainer, then you shouldn't need to worry about taking on a Japanese name! ^_^

What if your name already sounds like a common name in Japanese, Like 'Amy' or 'Naomi'? It's probably the same answer, but it's kinda interesting.

masaman Wrote:my name in my language means xxx

Awesome.

JimmySeal Wrote:

Womacks23 Wrote:

JimmySeal Wrote:In my understanding it is a fairly common practice among zainichi Koreans who are looking to mitigate their crappy situation.

Why would Koreans have to make up kanji when they already have them?

Some people don't like being treated as foreigners after they've lived in a country for numerous generations.

The ones with a crappy situation are foreigners. They may have been born in Japan but they opt not to take Japanese citizenship (it's very easy for Zainichi to get) and not to go to normal schools in an attempt to maintain their links to (generally North) Korea. Not going to normal schools means it is difficult for them to get into universities since they aren't taught all of the required material (some is replaced with stuff like Korean history and culture classes) and will need to make up for it on their own time at juku etc. Not going to university (or going to a bad one) means you are doomed to low paying jobs.

There is of course still some racism towards them by older people, but it's not the biggest contributor to their situation. For those that really care about race, you can determine family history through koseki etc, so using a Japanese name is only effective in casual encounters. Lacking Japanese citizenship is of course a much more obvious red flag.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Lacking Japanese citizenship is of course a much more obvious red flag.

Red flag?

How so? I confuse....

hereticalrants Wrote:

masaman Wrote:my name in my language means xxx

Awesome.

oops,
please substitute xxx with whatever you fancy.

Jarvik7 Wrote:The ones with a crappy situation are foreigners. They may have been born in Japan but they opt not to take Japanese citizenship (it's very easy for Zainichi to get) and not to go to normal schools in an attempt to maintain their links to (generally North) Korea.

What about the ones who have Japanese citizenship (or are looking to get it but are too young) and go to Japanese schools? Should they still be treated like foreigners?

Wikipedia Wrote:There are also Koreans living in Japan who try to present themselves as Japanese to prevent discrimination.[19] Most younger Zainichi now speak only Japanese, go to Japanese schools, work for Japanese firms and increasingly now marry Japanese.

Of course no one SHOULD be treated as a foreigner, not even legitimate foreigners. I do think that the worst of the problems facing Zainichi are caused by the Zainichi though. The quote you put at the end shows the problem of their perspective. They shouldn't be identifying as Koreans because they are not Koreans, their ancestors were. I identify myself as Canadian, not the hodgepodge of countries my ancestors came from. Japanese people identify them as foreigners partially because they identify themselves as foreigners.

There is no age limit to taking citizenship, although I presume it requires parental consent if you are under a certain age. The Zainichi who have Korean citizenship don't want Japanese citizenship (or their parents don't want it if they are minors).

The Zainichi who have citizenship and go to regular schools face a much easier life, but there will of course always be racism from older people. Then again, some older people also hate Ainu, Okinawans, burakumin, or people not from their region of Japan (Kanto vs Kansai etc).

Born in-Japan Zainichi are pretty much always given both a Korean and Japanese name at birth, or characters that can be read both ways. That cannot really be compared to an adult westerner moving to Japan and randomly deciding one day that from now on his name will be Takeshi.

Minlawc Wrote:What if your name already sounds like a common name in Japanese, Like 'Amy' or 'Naomi'? It's probably the same answer, but it's kinda interesting.

Sorry to bring up an old topic, but I have a similar question. I go by Mary/Meri among my friends and among foreigners who can't pronounce 'Meredith'. If I were to use the kanji 芽里 (which I understand is fairly common), would that go over well or would I just seem like a creepy over-obsessed 外人?

You would seem like an over obsessed gaijin ya. You'll get a monotone sugooooooi from some people, but most would probably just be more like なんで.

芽里 are both common kanji and the reading is guessable, but it's far from common to write meri in kanji. I'd actually recommend using the Japanese name Mari.

Personally I use kanji for my name (麻郁) at work, but that's just because everyone is required to have kanji names in my department for some reason. Those are pretty common kanji for the name Mike and there were some half celebs before with the same. I think its also used in china, but I don't remember exactly.

Once again I think that if you just use the kanji for fun sometimes it's OK, but if you try to treat the kanji as the actual, normal writing of your name it will seem odd.

(One thing I wrote earlier was that Chinese people can continue to use characters but I've gotten some conflicting opinions from native speakers on this; some of them think it's better for Chinese speakers to use katakana so that there's no confusion over how to pronounce the name. Generally these people seemed to think that calling (for instance) a Huang as　こう（さん） is fine for informal situations or among friends but that it would seem odd in other contexts.)

J7, I think you're oversimplifying the zainichi issue. Citizenship, nationality, ethnicity, culture, country of original, residency are complicated concepts for transnational people and vary in significance and consequences depending on the country and history. Naturalization would offer zainichi few additional government benefits (they already successful fought for all but the vote) and would not reduce discrimination (which is not limited to older Japanese people, btw.) Japan doesn't have a history of multiculturism, so citizenship and ethnicity are more closely tied than in a country like Canada. Cultural assimilation shouldn't be the expected solution. I realize broad strokes are unavoidable in an internet forum, but I think your description is a wee bit misleading. It collapses history and puts disproportionate blame on the oppressed group.

About names: Did you ask your company if you can use a katakana name? Making a kanji name does seem odd. Another thing I found odd was the tendency to use first names only for foreigners. Every place I worked used my first name in katakana (for communication and stamps.) It made me feel like a pet...

Thora Wrote:About names: Did you ask your company if you can use a katakana name? Making a kanji name does seem odd. Another thing I found odd was the tendency to use first names only for foreigners. Every place I worked used my first name in katakana (for communication and stamps.) It made me feel like a pet...

I'm curious to under the reasons behind this. I recently met this Japanese girl who's younger than me, and she has been calling me マークさん。People seem to think it's funny and cute, but a little strange. My girlfriend now jokingly calls me マークさん。When I asked my gf why it's so funny, she told me it's because I'm not Japanese.

Maybe it's just me, but it comes across as rude not to use polite terms when it would normally be extended to other people in a similar situation, especially in the workplace. Isn't it contradictory to expect to be called Mr. or Ms. when you come to an English speaking country, but then forgo the ーさん when addressing a foreigner in your country?

As I understand, this is done so that foreigners feel comfortable, which means there's the implicit assumption that foreigners don't feel comfortable with Japanese culture and would rather be addressed in a more familiar way. Nevertheless, wouldn't it be more proper to refer to someone as Mr. or Ms. in the workplace, rather than on a first name basis? I mean, come on, I seriously doubt that international Japanese businessmen are going around addressing high execs at other companies by their first names!

Anyone have a more in-depth perspective on this subject?

Japanese people can have a very hard time interacting with foreigners who are in Japan for more than tourism because we don't fit very well into the social system that the Japanese are used to. Often we're in low positions in the companies, but at the same time we're "guests" in the country, and on top of that they try to mix in foreign customs (like calling us by our first names, sometimes without -san). I think that rarely is it due to intentional belittling or rudeness. Now, you can argue whether it is belittling or rude nonetheless.

yudantaiteki Wrote:Japanese people can have a very hard time interacting with foreigners who are in Japan for more than tourism because we don't fit very well into the social system that the Japanese are used to. Often we're in low positions in the companies, but at the same time we're "guests" in the country, and on top of that they try to mix in foreign customs (like calling us by our first names, sometimes without -san). I think that rarely is it due to intentional belittling or rudeness. Now, you can argue whether it is belittling or rude nonetheless.

Discussing whether using -san or not is rude is not a debate I'll all that interested in. I have no problem with how people address me as long as their intentions are pure. However, I found it startling that someone referring to me as マークさん caused such a commotion. She was simply trying to treat me with respect, but other people made it into a joke. Why should her kindness be teased?

「さん」 is a good way to make some mental personal space, so she might just want some space with you. Actually I think it's just infrequent collocation of words sounds funny some times. I've made people laugh so many times by using strange word combinations or out of place vocabulary. It's just the word マーク and さん are not a very common combination. If you were 山田太郎, 太郎さん wouldn't sound strange.

There is also the question of personal space too. Being a westerner, your "mental personal space" is probably a lot closer than the one an average Japanese person have, assuming you are not in Osaka. If you are the frank guy in the company, and everybody is on first name terms with you, and only this one person call you 'Mr. Doe', then that will sound a bit funny too.

I have the same username on lang-8, and three different people have called me "bladethecoder-san", "bladethecoderさん" and "Ms. bladethecoder". If マークさん sounds odd, then what of those? =P