Codexus Wrote:When you had to wait months or years for a translated version, being able to understand the original even a little bit was worth the effort. Now for manga/anime fans it's just too convenient to rely to translations so you have to find something else for motivation.

Personally I find being able to gripe about the lousy quality of the fansub is pretty motivating :-)

pm215 Wrote:Personally I find being able to gripe about the lousy quality of the fansub is pretty motivating :-)

Speaking of... Did anyone else catch that fansub of Darker than Black: Black Contractor OVA 3? That is the worst sub I have ever seen. I was amazed. I actually understood the Japanese better than the English on about 1/3 of it.

wccrawford Wrote:

pm215 Wrote:Personally I find being able to gripe about the lousy quality of the fansub is pretty motivating :-)

Speaking of... Did anyone else catch that fansub of Darker than Black: Black Contractor OVA 3? That is the worst sub I have ever seen. I was amazed. I actually understood the Japanese better than the English on about 1/3 of it.

I've had some experiences in bad fansubbing. Nowadays I prefer the raw. like I've gotten to the point where my mind likes/understands it in full Japanese. It all makes sense. When some people ask me what they are saying. I'm like, that's a whole different skill lol. Sure I can translate it, in my head fast, randomly. But it probably wouldn't sound correct in english, that's the nature of translation though. You gotta make it make sense in english/smooth.

ta12121 Wrote:I've had some experiences in bad fansubbing. Nowadays I prefer the raw. like I've gotten to the point where my mind likes/understands it in full Japanese. It all makes sense. When some people ask me what they are saying. I'm like, that's a whole different skill lol. Sure I can translate it, in my head fast, randomly. But it probably wouldn't sound correct in english, that's the nature of translation though. You gotta make it make sense in english/smooth.

You're completely right its a different skill entirely. I think translation (proper one) is a higher level skill than fluency. To do it right you need to be fluent in both languages and then add some more translation specific skills. Some concepts are really hard to translate even between "normal" Latin based languages and you have to be prepared for most of them.

As for fansubs I have a feeling that most of them suck, I just can't notice it. But hey even professionals translators can screw up pretty badly.

thurd Wrote:As for fansubs I have a feeling that most of them suck, I just can't notice it. But hey even professionals translators can screw up pretty badly.

Actually, I think some of them do a REALLY good job for what they're working with. Quite often I hear something translated that is obviously not literal, but when I work it through in my head, their translation is a LOT better than I'd have done. And some of the speed-subbers do an amazing job for how fast they do it.

Others are bad from start to finish... But there's always crap when you're dealing with amateurs and a totally open (and cheap/free) system.

wccrawford Wrote:Actually, I think some of them do a REALLY good job for what they're working with. Quite often I hear something translated that is obviously not literal, but when I work it through in my head, their translation is a LOT better than I'd have done. And some of the speed-subbers do an amazing job for how fast they do it.

Others are bad from start to finish... But there's always crap when you're dealing with amateurs and a totally open (and cheap/free) system.

Yeah I see your "REALLY good job" and raise you an obligatory:

wccrawford Wrote:

thurd Wrote:As for fansubs I have a feeling that most of them suck, I just can't notice it. But hey even professionals translators can screw up pretty badly.

Actually, I think some of them do a REALLY good job for what they're working with.

Yeah, absolutely (my initial sarcasm notwithstanding). Some are outstanding, many are good but make the occasional flub or bad call, some are avowedly going for speed over quality, and there are a few really ropy ones. It wouldn't be motivating if it was like shooting fish in a barrel :-)

thurd Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:I've had some experiences in bad fansubbing. Nowadays I prefer the raw. like I've gotten to the point where my mind likes/understands it in full Japanese. It all makes sense. When some people ask me what they are saying. I'm like, that's a whole different skill lol. Sure I can translate it, in my head fast, randomly. But it probably wouldn't sound correct in english, that's the nature of translation though. You gotta make it make sense in english/smooth.

You're completely right its a different skill entirely. I think translation (proper one) is a higher level skill than fluency. To do it right you need to be fluent in both languages and then add some more translation specific skills. Some concepts are really hard to translate even between "normal" Latin based languages and you have to be prepared for most of them.

As for fansubs I have a feeling that most of them suck, I just can't notice it. But hey even professionals translators can screw up pretty badly.

higher level than fluency hmm. I think you just need to be fluent/been with the language for a long time as well. Plus you need to translate for a while to be fully experienced in translation. So it comes through experience. Some things are just awkward to translate in the language, idioms and such.

wccrawford Wrote:I've actually learned some surprising things from my language partner... Like when I was telling her I ate Chinese food for dinner, and had trouble getting across the idea that the restaurant cooked it and I bought it and brought it home to eat it. Seems to be something that isn't done much there?

Hmm, that's a good point. There's 出前 (delivery), but when I was in Japan I don't think I ever got carryout or "to go" food, even at McDonald's. Many restaurants will not even let you take home doggy bags.

Thurd: Are those pictures supposed to be examples of bad translations?

thurd Wrote:Yeah I see your "REALLY good job" and raise you an obligatory:

I'm betting most of those are pretty close to literal. That seems to be something that is said a lot in anime, especially as a joke or as something that is deliberately over the top. Some even have death systems where 'dying' doesn't actually mean permanent death. Some of them were expressing feelings, rather than facts, such as the ones that say things like 'I didn't think she'd die even if we killed her.' That character had a TON of vitality, and that's how they are expressing it.

I'd have to agree with the L one though, I'd prefer to die before I get killed :!

yudantaiteki Wrote:Thurd: Are those pictures supposed to be examples of bad translations?

Yes they are. I can't find that moment in Death Note so I can't really tell what L was talking about but apparently there is some idiom that gets translated literally and such "masterpieces" are born.

As I said, for Japanese I'm nowhere near as advanced to be judging fansubbers but my experiences with English->Polish subs is just horrible. There are exceptions but these are rare and generally drown in mediocrity. Don't even get me started on comedy, most shows on TV here are just not funny after they finish with them.

Its just how translation works, sometimes you just "get it" in original language or you fail to grasp it entirely.

I remembered a recent blunder that I noticed while watching Avatar in a local cinema, when Sigourney Weavers character says something like "Use that one, its the least quirky" gets translated as "Use that one, its damaged/faulty" This was done by a professional translator with lots of experience working with movies.

I don't know the phrase, so I could be completely wrong, it seems like this whole
"He wouldn't die even if we killed him"
thing could just simply be a saying or idiom that, when translated directly, sounds ridiculous in English.

edit: my source is that it seems to happen a lot, and it's always the same thing

thurd Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:Thurd: Are those pictures supposed to be examples of bad translations?

Yes they are. I can't find that moment in Death Note so I can't really tell what L was talking about but apparently there is some idiom that gets translated literally and such "masterpieces" are born.

I don't think so. At least the One Piece and Slayers ones are jokes, and other ones aren't bad translations -- that's what the Japanese means (presumably this is a translation of 殺しても死なない) and it makes as much sense in Japanese as English. The figurative meaning of the phrase is obvious (in both languages), and there's no real idiom you can substitute in English for it.

The Death Note one isn't even problematic -- "die before you get killed [by someone]" makes sense. Dying and being killed by someone are different things.

"You'll only survive if you die" presumably makes sense in the context of the source anime.

I'm not saying fansubbers are perfect (far from it), but this seems like a baseless criticism, especially when you yourself admit that you lack the Japanese knowledge to know if they're being translated correctly or not.

I've read comparisons/checked myself the English p2p group translations of Japanese many times over the years, and have always found the majority of the popular group releases to be excellent, often equalling or surpassing in accuracy (this is [only] partially subjective, as I prefer the close-to-the-bone sense I often get from unofficial translations vs. 'regionalized', heavily edited in 'post', translations) the official releases of the same projects. And to do that for free and for countless more releases, and far more quickly...

These days even 'speed subs' seem really good, when they used to be universally poor.

Two things I've always thought about the anime/manga industry is that Japanese creators/etc. ought to find a way to directly access their fanbase in other countries, both in terms of translation/distribution and receiving compensation.

I haven't watched Death Note in awhile, but I'm pretty sure L's line (if it's the one I'm thinking of) makes perfect sense. One of the cops (Matsuda I think) is discovered by the corporate group using the Death Note, and he's sure they're going to kill him. So L's plan is to have Matsuda fake his death before they can actually kill him, or something like that.
So, yeah "dying before being killed" makes perfect sense. The other ones do sound kinda funny though, lol.

yudantaiteki Wrote:

wccrawford Wrote:I've actually learned some surprising things from my language partner... Like when I was telling her I ate Chinese food for dinner, and had trouble getting across the idea that the restaurant cooked it and I bought it and brought it home to eat it. Seems to be something that isn't done much there?

Hmm, that's a good point. There's 出前 (delivery), but when I was in Japan I don't think I ever got carryout or "to go" food, even at McDonald's. Many restaurants will not even let you take home doggy bags.

Thurd: Are those pictures supposed to be examples of bad translations?

お持ち帰り is the word you're looking for.
It literally means to "to carry and go back".

So if you ever want an order "to go", just say お持ち帰り.
Coincidentally, I learned the phrase from my Japanese
conversation partner..... :-)


For the curious people out there, here is the definition
listed in the Japanese-Japanese Mac OSX dictionary (NOTE:
the Japanese-English OSX dictionary doesn't have this word.
So I guess it's not a very common.)


もち‐かえり【持（ち）帰り】‐かへり
持って帰ること。買った品物などを自分で持って帰ること。また、出された料理などをその場で食べないで持って帰ること。テークアウト。「配達でなく―にする」

持ち帰り
もちかえり
(n) takeout (i.e. food)
Audio

Edit: Also?

テークアウト
(n) takeout
Audio

chamcham Wrote:(NOTE: the Japanese-English OSX dictionary doesn't have this word.
So I guess it's not a very common.)

That's weird, since they've used it at basically every fast-food restaurant I've been to. And believe me, I've been to a lot.

nest0r Wrote:持ち帰り
もちかえり
(n) takeout (i.e. food)
テークアウト
(n) takeout

お持ち帰り is getting food to go, the opposite is generally referred to as 店内
テークアウト is used in the sense of "let's get some takeout and go to the park"
^--these are not interchangeable, you wouldn't say "lets get some mochikaeri" or tell the cashier that you want your food takeout (though they'd probably understand)
出前 is delivery food.

chamcham Wrote:Mac OSX dictionary (NOTE:
the Japanese-English OSX dictionary doesn't have this word.
So I guess it's not a very common.)

It's under the verb:

もちかえる【持ち帰る】
carry [bring, take] back

パンフレットをお持ち帰りください｜Take the pamphlet home [with you].

持ち帰り用のサンドイッチ｜sandwiches [to take out / to go / ｟英国用法｠ to take away] / ｟米国用法｠takeout [carry-out] sandwiches / ｟英国用法｠takeaway sandwiches

Jarvik7 Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:持ち帰り
もちかえり
(n) takeout (i.e. food)
テークアウト
(n) takeout

お持ち帰り is getting food to go, the opposite is generally referred to as 店内
テークアウト is used in the sense of "let's get some takeout and go to the park"
^--these are not interchangeable, you wouldn't say "lets get some mochikaeri" or tell the cashier that you want your food takeout (though they'd probably understand)
出前 is delivery food.

Ah, I was uncertain but had that fuzzy impression (hence the 'Also?').

I'm still unclear of the difference, could you give some contrasting Japanese sentences? To show how they're not interchangeable.

nest0r Wrote:I'm still unclear of the difference, could you give some contrasting Japanese sentences? To show how they're not interchangeable.

In general, 持ち帰り is used when the clerk at the fast food restaurant is asking where you want to eat your food. テークアウト is then used almost immediately afterward, most likely under the assumption that if you're foreign, you only understand English loanwords.

Are you sure they're not interchangeable? I'm not getting the difference between 持ち帰り and テイクアウト.

持ち帰り　can be used anywhere as a way to tell the clerk that you want to take your food home. テイクアウト　is probably used more often at fastfood restaurants wanting to be "foreign"

I think they can be used interchangably but お持ち帰り will be understood no matter the context while テイクアウト might not make sense in every situation.