I've been working at learning Japanese for about a year now, and I find myself wondering exactly how far I have progressed. Of course, there aren't any solid definitions of beginner, intermediate, and fluent, so figuring out where I fall is not exactly easy. I feel like I am pretty far along in my learning, but then I see people with 8000+ sentences under their belt adding 50+ a day, and my 2000 total (10 new per day) pales in comparison. On the other hand, I can sit and read manga and novels all day, and the simple fact that I can do this (without a dictionary) and follow a story must mean that I have some degree of proficiency.

So my question is: how do you define your own skill?

(There is no real point in assessing this, aside from a desire to see how far I have progressed and how far I have "left to go." I'll continue working forward regardless, but it's sometimes nice to take a step back and see the big picture.)

I define it just like you already are: In terms of what I can DO with the language.

That's the point of learning a language, isn't it?

Progress: can read manga, play games, watch movies/anime in Japanese. Writing on lang-8 still sucks. Hope to soon start reading books.
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wccrawford Wrote:I define it just like you already are: In terms of what I can DO with the language.

That's the point of learning a language, isn't it?

This. Stats are nice for motivation purposes though.

Reading this topic I had an idea. It could work for some people.

Each time you want or have to do something in Japanese and you can't or feel that it took you too much effort or you couldn't enjoy it plenty, leave a writen record of that (including the date). Check that least once in a while, and each time you discover that you now can do something you couldn't do before, or can enjoy something more than before, add that to the corresponding record.

For example:

January 1st. Trying to talk to my Japanese friend I couldn't explain X because I (didn't know the appropriate vocabulary / couldn't articulate my speech properly or fast enough / didn't feel confident enough to explain it in Japanese / etc)

February 10. I had a similar conversation with another Japanese person and now I could explain something similar because now I (know the corresponding vocabulary / know a way of explaining what I wanted to say using words that I already know / etc.)

The idea is that it's too easy to lose motivation because you don't realize all you have improved over time. If you track things you couldn't do, but now can do, you won't forget that even things that look impossible now can be reached if you keep on trying.

Sebastian Wrote:Each time you want or have to do something in Japanese and you can't or feel that it took you too much effort or you couldn't enjoy it plenty, leave a writen record of that (including the date). Check that least once in a while, and each time you discover that you now can do something you couldn't do before, or can enjoy something more than before, add that to the corresponding record.

My only problem with that is that the first time I have an issue with saying something, I look it up. So then I know right on the spot how to say it.

And if I don't look it up, it's because I can't, and so I also can't make a note of the issue.

As far as enjoying something more than before, I already know when that happens... I still remember not being able to read manga quite vividly, and I can now read it quite well. (Well, the easier ones.) And I've seen a marked improvement in my ability to read books and kanji without furigana.

The key for me has been to keep a library of things that are too challenging. As I gain ability, I check the library's items to see how much I've improved with each of them.

Just keep looking back and how far you've come from the beginning.

One of the major benefits with things like a Tae Kim deck, RTK deck, Core 2k/6k deck, etc. is you do have a nice way to quantify your progress. On top of that, there's correlation to how much one has done in the quantifiable areas to how well one can do the non-measurable areas (manga, dramas, conversation). Then you have less quantifiable means that can still be measure (sentences from any source, subs2srs from any show) which also correlate to the more you've done the better you seem to be.

Is it 1-1, hell no, not even close. Further it's skewed by how people approach their individual reviews in individual areas. Still, even that can be an indicator of how well they're doing in real Japanese. If all one does is recognition sentences, they reach 2000 sentences faster though they'll probably seem weaker in listening skills. If one does more dictation, pseudo and full-on production sentences, they'll probably be stronger though it'll take them much longer to reach 2000 sentences.

Still, with Anki and all the other neat toys built and collected on this forum over the last five(?) years, it's made learning a language reasonably quantifiable. Think about it, scan your 2000 sentences and you get a return of unique vocabulary words and kanji. Want to wager that items that appear 5+ times you're very comfortable with? Even grammar points can be scanned which can gauge the "JLPT" level of your sentences. Tell me on top of that you use audio in your reviews and I'd wager you can follow along a drama with Japanese sub-titles and enjoy it.

Sorry for the long reply. I've ran into many guys that claimed to know Japanese enough to "get along" or those that took it in college and have been less than impressed. Self-evaluation is difficult, and evaluating others is difficult. It's the reason the language learning business racket is still pulling in money. I don't think things proffered on this forum fall into that category.

Thanks for the replies, gents. Gauging my progress based on what I am able to do is certainly an easy way to go, and it's more or less what I've been doing. However, as Evil_Dragon said, stats can be nice for motivation. The problem I seem to be having here is that my stats and perceived abilities don't really line up. I don't see how it is possible that I have only 2000 recognition sentences in Anki, yet I can sit down and read 2000 pages of manga in a day without trouble. That somehow seems like I am "cheating" at Japanese, like I am somehow pretending to know more than I really do. This uncertainty in my ability is what got me thinking about my progress, because I constantly find myself wondering, "Do I really understand what I am reading?"

I've been studying Japanese every day for a year now, and yet I feel more uncertain of my abilities now than I ever did before. I'm not sure how exactly to deal with that.

Filicireg Wrote:Thanks for the replies, gents. Gauging my progress based on what I am able to do is certainly an easy way to go, and it's more or less what I've been doing. However, as Evil_Dragon said, stats can be nice for motivation. The problem I seem to be having here is that my stats and perceived abilities don't really line up. I don't see how it is possible that I have only 2000 recognition sentences in Anki, yet I can sit down and read 2000 pages of manga in a day without trouble. That somehow seems like I am "cheating" at Japanese, like I am somehow pretending to know more than I really do. This uncertainty in my ability is what got me thinking about my progress, because I constantly find myself wondering, "Do I really understand what I am reading?"

I've been studying Japanese every day for a year now, and yet I feel more uncertain of my abilities now than I ever did before. I'm not sure how exactly to deal with that.

You sound like me a bit. I've been doing this for a year now(well 9 months actually, but you add 3 months of kanji it's a year, but for technical purposes it's 9 months). I'm not sure where to level myself. Understanding anime/reading manga isn't a big deal for me anymore. Watching drama's isn't' hard/movies. Even news is not hard at all(with the addition of transcripts). So on the input side i'm pretty good. As for the output side not so much, sure I can write kanji pretty fine, basic convo fine. But if I were to get into a debate, oh man would I fail like no other. That's why I'm finding more ways of improving those skills. For writing kanji, i've increased my production deck. I'm trying to incorporate stuff into that deck that will help. As for outside, reading a lot of news/dramas/listening to pod-casts will help with this. Talk-shows are awesome resource for speech patterns.

I spend quite a lot of the day in japanese, almost always. To the point my friends were afraid of me becoming "japanese". Which i find quite surprising. It's strange, how knowing a language is awesome. But getting there and putting the time/effort into it, usual results in people thinking your strange(not strange as in unusual, strange as in, why do you spend so much time in the language). People assume learning a language can be gained without any effort. It's not hard, but it does require the time, you put more time you'll get the results faster.

Filicireg Wrote:That somehow seems like I am "cheating" at Japanese, like I am somehow pretending to know more than I really do.

What's so bad about this? Just cheat your way to fluency, that's what I'm doing. No classes, no textbooks, no hard work involved. It's basically godmode!

The best way to improve is to stretch yourself. "Pretending you know more than you really do" can only lead you to get into situations you can't quite handle yet. And that means rapid improvement.

Filicireg Wrote:I have only 2000 recognition sentences in Anki, yet I can sit down and read 2000 pages of manga in a day without trouble.

Want to better gauge your progress? Switch with me, you'll get almost 4000 vocabulary cards (look its twice as much!) but I get understanding manga&anime... good deal right?

I'd actually like to know what did you do to get to that point without much SRSing.

thurd Wrote:

Filicireg Wrote:I have only 2000 recognition sentences in Anki, yet I can sit down and read 2000 pages of manga in a day without trouble.

Want to better gauge your progress? Switch with me, you'll get almost 4000 vocabulary cards (look its twice as much!) but I get understanding manga&anime... good deal right?

I'd actually like to know what did you do to get to that point without much SRSing.

I can't answer for him, but for me, I used Smart.fm to get a very basic vocabulary and an RTK-like game to learn about 1300 kanji 'meanings' and then started reading the easiest one I could find (Yotsuba&). After doing that a while, reading was a decent speed and my vocabulary was good enough to move up to harder ones like One Piece and Naruto. I eventually added ReadTheKanji.com to the list of study tools.

Keep in mind that I'm too lazy to SRS. That's just too much work. I spend -maybe- 30 minutes a day on studying, but usually it's closer to 0. I do, however, read manga every single day. At least 2 pages.

Lately, I've also had a language partner that I Skype with daily.

You should measure yourself against your goals, so if one is reading then I guess you're doing pretty well. I have no idea how many of anything I know, it's not important to me.

I kind of use these books as a measure / progress reassurance:
http://www.ask-digital.co.jp/product/?tag=にほんご500問

every page has 3 questions, 1 kanji, 1 vocab, 1 grammar. Which gradually get harder throughout the books and the series. So I go through until it gets too hard then stop. Then a month later a do the same and I can always get further than the last time even though it sometime feels like I haven't learnt much.

Nukemarine Wrote:I've ran into many guys that claimed to know Japanese enough to "get along" or those that took it in college and have been less than impressed.

caivano Wrote:You should measure yourself against your goals, so if one is reading then I guess you're doing pretty well.

I found these two quotes to have the most impact on me. Clases -- it's a gauge, for sure, but just because you took 3-4 years of college level study doesn't mean your language skills will be as high as you'd wish. You may think that your Japanese is good enough to "get along," and perhaps it's true, but you could be disappointed to find out how much doing nothing but "getting along" actually is.

That's why the best is to base it on your own goals. What do you want to do with the language? "Become fluent?" It's a good goal, but it's too lofty -- you can't compare it with anything.

Make smaller goals -- perhaps along the lines of that journal thing mentioned above. Skype with people! Put your skills to the test. Did you fulfill/exceed your expectations, or were you disappointed? Read a novel! Is it enjoyable, or is it treacherous?
Everything you do is bringing you closer to your "fluency goal."

Evil_Dragon: My main concern with "cheating" is that I am actually missing major details of things. I started learning Japanese so that I could read books, so I'd hate to be reading these books and completely missing major plot elements.

Thurd: My ability to read is actually somewhat similar to wccrawford's. I first started toying with the idea of learning Japanese on smart.fm, where I learned a few basic words (I think I made it through the first two sections of the core2000). Then I found AJATT while looking up info on Heisig's books, decided that was a fine way to learn. By the time I finished learning the first 2000 kanji, I was already reading.


Well these are definitely good ideas. Using a journal to track my goals (or failures) would be a good way to see where I am and where I want to be. Thinking about how far I've come, what I've enjoyed most, and what I want to move towards, I've already started making some changes to my routine. For months now I've been using context and knowledge of kanji to get a rough understanding of words I don't know, but now I'm actually looking the words up, finding sentences, and adding them to my SRS. It's been working pretty well, and in doing this I'll be building up my reading ability by adding words I actually encounter (as opposed to just adding words from the core2000, which is what I've been doing).

So, thanks for the input, it's been a great aid to my motivation. If anyone else has an idea on the topic, I'd be more than happy to hear it.

If I think about it, I probably have similar experiences with subs2srs. About 18 months ago, I realized I can watch a show with Japanese subtitles and could follow along. When I ran an episode through subs2srs and Anki it was evident there was so much I did not get yet glossed over. Even doing a show I watched with English subs a year prior (Hana Yori Dango, Zettai Kareshi), by going line by line I found there was understanding that I was missing (probably due to poor translations).

No surprise, but as time goes on, what I don't pick up from a show from watching it compared to what I find by putting it through an srs is narrowing. Guess that's one way I can gauge progress in natural Japanese.

JLPT levels.

Personally now I think I will set mini-goals, or short-term ones. Like reach conversation level japanese,etc be able to read a newspaper in full/watch news,etc(i can already watch news but still some stuff lacking). Setting smaller goals is the best, It's not always good to keep thinking of fluency/native-level as they can be vague terms. Learn more vocab,learn more context of sentences, learn to speak in a conversational manner, then functional, then semi-fluent then fluent.

You'll get far thinking like this.