So I was thinking today... After a person gets beyond most of the common grammar, what's even the point of doing sentence SRS when they could just be doing vocab SRS and relying on constant reading of new material for both grammar review and acquisition of new vocab?

* Vocab SRS is a lot faster (for me at least) so you can spend more time reading new material.
* Even according AJATT, you want to have cards that are "cheap" to fail, and what's cheaper than simple vocab cards?
* After you SRS a sentence several times you will just memorize it and not have to rely on actually reading to remember the grammar and vocab (this seems bad).
* Reading sentences out of context is weird and the sentence can be stripped of it's proper usage.

Of course, when you run into something you don't understand you would make a note of it, look it up, but don't worry about adding that sentence to SRS (since you already "spoiled" it by memorizing its meaning anyway).

So... Where is my flaw in reasoning here? I have done a lot of sentences, but from thinking about it, why wouldn't someone just go full vocab + reading? Why is so much focus on sentences?

The biggest problem is that certain nouns, verbs and modifiers go together while having synonyms that do not. An example ajatt gives is the use of "construction site" vs. "construction place" in English.

This doesn't mean you need full sentences, though. What you need are two to three words so you can see and learn which words go together in which contexts. This isn't to say working through a vocab deck for fast, cheap wins while continuing to work with sentences and phrases is a bad idea. But ultimately its those sentences/phrases (plus a lot of practice) which will give you more natural output. But, rapid vocabulary acquisition will make your immersion and reading much more enjoyable.

I totally understand and agree with the "construction site" vs "construction place" argument. But it doesn't require sentence SRS at all - I mean won't you just see these expressions normally? And if not, why are you wasing time learning them - surely your time would be better spent remembering expressions that actually occur often in the language. And to clarify, I consider set expressions to be "vocab" as well.

I mean the only difference is that that instead of re-reading sentences you already know you constantly read new sentences (so you can see how "construction site" vs "consruction place" can be used in different contexts). In fact, if you were only reviewing just a couple of usage cases of "site" vs "place" you probably wouldn't even be able to tell that it's not right to use on in place of the other. To do that you have to sample lots of fresh examples and get the "feel" of each word. And I think having more exposure to new material is always a big win.

Also as I mentioned, to me at least, it seems that a value of a sentence plummets once you have understood its meaning once. I have found words that even though I understood "perfectly" in the context of the sentences that they were used in, when used stand-alone caused a lot of confusion for me. This has never happend to vocab that was in my vocab SRS deck, because there you don't get to cheat using context. You either know the word or you don't.

For many sentences in my SRS deck, I already know what the sentence is about after I read two or so words in it ... meaning I don't actually have to try to understand it. And trust me, it's no lack of quantity. I have a good 9k or so sentences so far...

I have been wondering about this for a long time too, actually.

Despite my knowledge of (probably) the vast majority of it already, I'm going though Kore 6000, and I find the sentences to be next to useless.

What I'm currently trying out is this:
Front:
%(Vocab)s
%(Sentence)s
Back:
%(Vocab-Furigana)s: %(Vocab-Meaning)s
%(Sentence-Furigana)s
%(Sentence-Meaning)s
%(Note)s

Maybe even moving the original sentence to the answer side.
The motivation for this was a dictionary.
You see a word, and then you see short examples of how it is used.
It doesn't even have to be full sentences -- just short examples to give you ideas of collocations.

If it's worth it, go ahead and make a new card for 手向かい, despite having a card for 手 and one for 向かい

Thing is even Khatz in his whole AJATT concept was depending on massive amounts of reading. If I remember correctly he said that when you reach 10000 sentences you should have 100000+ sentences read "in the wild".

This is what I've been using this whole time, sentences for me are slow, boring and still have too little context to be useful. If you follow Khatz and all "sentence supporters" guidelines your ideal sentence card would be short, simple grammar and a new word, so why not make it a vocabulary card? It fits the profile PERFECTLY. I mean what context do you get from "Kore wa neko desu" (pardon my French, I don't have IME here).

Reading simple grammar for the n-th time just to remember a word is just wasteful. Time is better spent on reading/listening to something new.

Vocab cards are done easily, you can download audio for them in a moment in Anki (personally created sentence cards usually don't have this), reviews are quick, it looks good on phones and whats best it doesn't waste your time reading meaningless stuff (context for some...) a million times.

I find one good use for sentences, grammar. I plan to add some sentences for each point in Basic/Intermediate Dictionary of Japanese Grammar and KM 3&4, this makes sense for me. Memorizing random anime/manga sentences doesn't...

IceCream Wrote:check out this thread:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=4602

i think a mixture of different card types based on how much information you need is best. at the moment i'm making quiz cards for facts & other stuff i want to know in general. (in japanese). It's more fun, and feels like i'm learning something i'l really want to know in the future anyway...

@Thurd... did you get my message about the audio? i can't get the plugin to work T_T

@IceCream I've responded to your post, you're right I did miss your reply in that thread

IMO, it's all about deciding what is a word. To use the AJATT example, I would enter "construction site" into Anki. It's one word IMO, it specifies something specific, just like fry pan. I do the same with Japanese. If two words fit together so well that they show up in a dictionary together, I add them together. When words are so connected, like construction site, that other combinations sound odd, you will usually find it as an entry in a dictionary. When it's less strict, it's something which you will get from reading eventually and you probably wouldn't have gotten it from a sentence regardless.

I still use sentences, but I always put them on the answer side. The sentences are just there so I make sure I actually understand the word and aren't simply doing a J-E translation in my head.

I usually use vocab, and if it's not sticking I add some sentences. But yeah reading in the SRS vs reading in a book, give me a book any day. I do add sentences I really like and sentences I'm sure I could use myself to SRS. These are pretty good to break up a barrage of vocab.

I wondered the same thing doing subs2srs sentences, I'm not saying it's not a great program but I'd rather just watch the drama...

My problem has always been I don't like making my own cards. Probably the reason I always glommed onto ideas like group projects (KO2001, UBJG), sentences from coordinated sites (Tae Kim, Smart.fm) and especially subs2srs. I still do not use cards I made up from something I read or watched.

The subs2srs cards are the great as they're really cheap. Think it's too easy=delete, think it's too tough=delete, think it's no longer needed=delete. I can't do that with grammar and vocabulary cards, especially at these basic and intermediate levels. Deleting those don't make the words and concepts disappear.

To the OP, I think straight vocabulary words are a way to go, just like in the thread IceCream linked to. In fact, it was that thread that turned me on to that line of thought. Like it's pointed out, there's going to be LARGE variations on how to use a word and when to use it correctly that just cannot be covered in one vocabulary card. But, knowing that word helps you know it when you come across it when reading a lot. Now, with grammar I think example sentences are very useful. Then again, I'm more of a show me with examples type learner. As far as subs2srs go, well, I think that's turned more into a training my listening in an effective manner. It's not about learning new words or grammar or phrases.

Quote:Vocab cards are done easily, you can download audio for them in a moment in Anki (personally created sentence cards usually don't have this)

Do you mean you can download pre-made vocab decks, or something else?

I'm also debating how much time to spend reviewing sentences in Anki, as I also study the same sentences in Core 2000. I kinda like Tobberoth's idea of putting the sentence on the answer side, and just leaving the word on the question side...

Groot Wrote:

Quote:Vocab cards are done easily, you can download audio for them in a moment in Anki (personally created sentence cards usually don't have this)

Do you mean you can download pre-made vocab decks, or something else?

I mean by using this.

Discussion & problem solving take place here.

Very interesting discussion. Some of you mentioned the importance of having grammar sentences, but don't they suffer from the same problem? I mean it's just so easy to memorize what the sentence is *supposed* to be, thereby fooling yourself into thinking you know the grammar when you actually don't.

Same arguments since my first posts on the forum, so nothing really to add. As long as you keep the word and context (collocation, usage, prosody) consistent and well-integrated, I don't think it matters, if your goal is vocabulary. Likewise with grammar (BTW, going to plug that 8555 Dictionary of Japanese Grammar shared sentence deck for the umpteenth time, saves so much time for mining those books and also great for just looking up grammar examples and such).

Personally I do single word cards and different types of sentence cards, because I have multiple strategies that I feel require a good number of the latter in addition to non-SRS exposure and SRSing for particular things. A lot of it depends on how structured and strategic you want to be.

My strategies tend to revolve around focused, flexible encoding and maintenance of elaborately easier, complementary multimodal information, so to me, doing only vocabulary cards is the same as people who stick to just picking up grammar 'naturally'. Way slow and cumbersome to do it that way, and perhaps it exists because people think 'grammar' = 'prescriptive grammar' and 'sentence' = 'memorizing sentence'? There's also that either/or mentality. Either words or sentences. Either learning materials or native materials. Makes no sense to me--if I never had to box myself in that way, why do others? ;p

And to repeat what I said in my first comment in the Goodbye Sentences thread, I think it's long been a kind of given on the forum that as you reach greater proficiency, you'll naturally need to continue SRSing less and less (relative to your onset), and what you do SRS will be more and more minimal. Depends, though.

I started doing this a little while ago and I have to say it's helped tremendously. My want to do more Japanese has gone up, as sentences took longer to go over than vocab does, so I would want to do less of it. Plus, my cards never go beyond a subject + object + verb, and will usually just either be a noun or if it is a verb, just the object + verb so I can know what particle should usually go with it. Words with multiple usages are given separate cards with different context so that I can distinguish and so that my cards don't get too cluttered.

Also, I just opt for a simple English translation. First of all, after teaching myself the word, I should know the context (I do look up the Japanese def as well). And second, it is way faster. If you are worried about it inhibiting your Japanese ability, I say read Stephen Krashen and that should alleviate any of those fears.

your mind will adjust to Japanese the more you listen/read it/etc use it,etc. English translations don't harm this but as long as you don't always rely on it. Eventually you should be able to understand full j-j sentences without any English. I do quite a lot of vocab, this has lead me to be able to follow news(with the aid of transcripts) with ease. So it feels good just to be able to understand full Japanese. Sure some vocab get's by me but eventually i will be able to understand 99% of it!!!

I don't have a problem with having English definitions.
I guess I can see the benefit of having the Japanese translation, but seriously, what's the difference between having
"A tree decorated at Christmas" and
"クリスマスに飾られる木"
They mean the same thing, except I can go through the English translation faster, and depending on the situation, understand it better.

Yes, I have used Japanese translations, and sometimes they are better when looking up a word initially. But during SRS reviews, I don't think it's necessarily a deal breaker to read English definitions.

I've never looked back since making that vocab deck. It's not perfect but I think once you get to an advanced level where you can pick up something up and vocab is the only thing standing in your way then it's works very well.

I think it's safe to say if you read 10 full novels I'm sure your Japanese will improve lots. If you read 100 well there's no stopping you. If you read 1000 I'm sure you could describe any situation you could ever imagine. A sentence deck is kinda static - the content stays the same as what you've put in there. The ability to read a complete novel can show you an infinite variety of sentences that get more and more interesting as you read.

I'm reading 1Q84 atm and it's great. There's no way i'd bother picking srs'ing every sentence for every word I wanna remember. Often if there's a sentence I like I chuck it into my output deck. It's pretty slow going atm but as I'm only just shy of 7.5K vocab which isn't quite enough. When I'm done with the book it'll be sitting at more like 9 - 10K. I'm sure the second book will be much faster. The third still.

It's been my plan all along this year to just really up the vocab and do as much reading as possible. Been aiming hard for 10K all year and was going to start reading novels at that point. I picked up 1Q84 and it's good so I haven't been able to put it down. And I guess that's just the way I like to learn.

Ask not how to learn the language folks but how to get the language to teach itself to you.

False dichotomy.
How about Sentence SRS + Reading vs Vocab SRS + Reading?
But whatever keeps you going...

I quit sentences because of what you said about memorising them. After you've seen it twice, you barely need to read past the first word to remember what the sentence means. I found that I wouldn't always be able to remember the vocabulary 'in the wild' because I was never actually focusing on it in the sentences. They just give away too much.

I actually have two or three sentences on the answer side, but I only really skim through them for the first couple of reviews, and then look to them if I can't remember which particle goes with the word or what situation it's used in etc. I don't think you can consistently guarantee picking these things up from reading.

I think you need to do just as much listening/watching and speaking to gain well rounded exposure as well.

Javizy Wrote:I quit sentences because of what you said about memorising them. After you've seen it twice, you barely need to read past the first word to remember what the sentence means. I found that I wouldn't always be able to remember the vocabulary 'in the wild' because I was never actually focusing on it in the sentences. They just give away too much.

I've never had this problem and personally I think it's just a slippery mistake people who do sentences sometimes get stuck in: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...9#pid99599

I agree that recognising sentences from srs is way too easy, you only need to understand a little bit to remember the whole meaning. I make sure I do production for anything important.

Btw I have recently started reading bits of the Harry Potter series and it has been way easier than I expected. I can understand roughly what's going on without a dictionary. So if anyone's putting off trying a novel, I'd give it a go.

nest0r Wrote:Same arguments since my first posts on the forum, so nothing really to add. As long as you keep the word and context (collocation, usage, prosody) consistent and well-integrated, I don't think it matters, if your goal is vocabulary. Likewise with grammar (BTW, going to plug that 8555 Dictionary of Japanese Grammar shared sentence deck for the umpteenth time, saves so much time for mining those books and also great for just looking up grammar examples and such).
...
And to repeat what I said in my first comment in the Goodbye Sentences thread, I think it's long been a kind of given on the forum that as you reach greater proficiency, you'll naturally need to continue SRSing less and less (relative to your onset), and what you do SRS will be more and more minimal. Depends, though.

I'd say that's spot on. I'm putting the どんな時どう使う日本語表文型５００ sentences into my deck as I go through the book, occasionally add a J-J comment or explanation from the same book or a J-E translation of a specific word, then search of the equivalent example sentences from the three Dictionaries of Japanese Grammar (B/I/A) and "un-suspend" them. I think it works fine, at least I'm keeping up with the Korean and Chinese students in my language class who all just took and passed various Japanese 大学入試.

For vocab, it's collocations, as nest0r said. Picked up a neat little book
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1...n+japanese+
that has a few thousand of those for common situations, and I pick and choose whatever I feel like learning.

So that's all good, but I've noticed that just by reading newspapers, the vocabulary doesn't really "stick" like it does after SRS-ing it for months. I.e. vocabulary that I've SRSed somehow, at some point, miraculously moves into active vocabulary, while the things that I only read every once in a while and understand in context just don't. So I'm not going to be able to reduce my SRSing any time soon.

nonpoint Wrote:False dichotomy.
How about Sentence SRS + Reading vs Vocab SRS + Reading?
But whatever keeps you going...

Sure, you can do it all. I was doing this for a pretty long time actually. The problem is that sentences are leeches that take a really long time to do (average of around 20 seconds for me). I can average vocab at something like 6 seconds per. It's a really big difference. I would end up doing about 2.5 - 3.0 hours a day just reviewing before I could get into reading any new material. With pure vocab I can knock out the reviews in under an hour and spent of the time reading native media.

I don't see the point of sentences at all anymore honestly. It's like trying to learn math using flash cards or something - it's often easier to remember the result than the process (or to tweak the process to match the result, according to memory). Basically you will always have hints on material you have previously covered that you would not see on new material you are trying to learn.

Reading new material and making sure you make a strong effort to understand every sentence (looking up or asking questions if necessary) seems vastly superior to just rehashing the same old stale sentences.

@nest0r:I understand what you are talking about in "deconstructing" a sentence, but in reality I don't know how this would be possible for me. The fact is that I will know what a given sentence is about (including all grammar in it) within reading the first 1-2 words. SRS is great at allowing people to remember things - the sentences themselves are not excluded. The whole process becomes tainted since you are very aware of the result you are trying to attain from your grammar analysis of the sentence. Basically once you see something you cannot unsee it

mezbup Wrote:I've never looked back since making that vocab deck. It's not perfect but I think once you get to an advanced level where you can pick up something up and vocab is the only thing standing in your way then it's works very well.

I think it's safe to say if you read 10 full novels I'm sure your Japanese will improve lots. If you read 100 well there's no stopping you. If you read 1000 I'm sure you could describe any situation you could ever imagine. A sentence deck is kinda static - the content stays the same as what you've put in there. The ability to read a complete novel can show you an infinite variety of sentences that get more and more interesting as you read.

I'm reading 1Q84 atm and it's great. There's no way i'd bother picking srs'ing every sentence for every word I wanna remember. Often if there's a sentence I like I chuck it into my output deck. It's pretty slow going atm but as I'm only just shy of 7.5K vocab which isn't quite enough. When I'm done with the book it'll be sitting at more like 9 - 10K. I'm sure the second book will be much faster. The third still.

It's been my plan all along this year to just really up the vocab and do as much reading as possible. Been aiming hard for 10K all year and was going to start reading novels at that point. I picked up 1Q84 and it's good so I haven't been able to put it down. And I guess that's just the way I like to learn.

Ask not how to learn the language folks but how to get the language to teach itself to you.

Nice, this is what I was actually thinking of doing for so long, finally started it. I was planning on reading 50-100 pages of stuff daily. Imagine I did that for a whole year. (Realistically a few months to see how it improves) but overall it helps a lot

@FooSoft - When I know a sentence and its grammar so well it only takes an instant, then, well, I just spend an instant on it. I can usually home in on any element, in an instant, what I might not be as strong on, and I practice that specific element--that's why I'm a proponent of i+x (that and my view of not being strict about SRS algorithms as long as the object of focus is being spaced). But that ability stems from being able to reform it as a unique string (not a memorized formula) starting at any component within the sentence--i.e. each component is independent and can easily be transferred to other contexts.

I think doing this with certain types of foundational cards in a multisensory way, and honing that metacognitive skill of bottom-up parsing is essential for optimal learning before increasingly phasing out and minimising SRSing vs. non-SRS exposure.