Reading the post here, I noticed that there are at least three points of contention, as far as language learning is concerned:
1. Writing kanji – some say it's pointless, some say it's a must.
2. Pitch accent – again, it was a point of controversy here some time ago.
3. Vocabulary count – so you think that 20k vocabulary is going to make you fluent? Well, I'm of opinion that just with 2,000 but well rehearsed and used at will, you have better chances in proving that your Japanese is ok.
4. To SRS, or not to SRS - that is the question.
5. However, if to SRS, then SRSing sentences is just fine, isn't it?
6. Fluency in 2 years time aka AJATT

Anything else that should be considered a "religious" issue?

Edit(s): As suggestions flow in.

#3 needs more specificity as to whether you mean reading or speaking. 2k would probably just barely be enough to read a shonen jump manga, but not too much more. 2k speaking would be enough to hold small shallow conversations. Additionally, you could probably do a bit more too if you are saying 2k includes non-foreign loan words, which doesn't include the core2k since the core has a lot of foreign loan words in the 2k section.

You could add in using an SRS vs not using an SRS. Although I don't think the not-using-SRS people are as vocal as the SRS-users.

Edit: Also recently I remember seeing some threads about SRS'ing just vocab verses SRS'ing sentences.

AJATT

vix86 Wrote:#3 needs more specificity as to whether you mean reading or speaking. 2k would probably just barely be enough to read a shonen jump manga, but not too much more. 2k speaking would be enough to hold small shallow conversations. Additionally, you could probably do a bit more too if you are saying 2k includes non-foreign loan words, which doesn't include the core2k since the core has a lot of foreign loan words in the 2k section.

As a topic that is listed as a controversial one, you will excuse me from not addressing your objections

However, if the topic will prove itself non-controversial then I'm happy to take it down from the list.

I have time, so I'll take a stab at it.

1. Writing kanji is very useful (especially if you live in Japan). But no so useful that you have to concentrate on it. At any rate, unless you've completely ignored the written word and/or never learned any kana/kanji at all, the biggest bottle neck to your writing ability will be your overall japanese ability (and familiarity with words and patterns) than your ability to write kanji.

2. Pitch accent. Necessary to sound native but not necessary to sound good enough (less important than just getting rid of your english stress). Spend enough time immersed in (and comprehending) Japanese and you'll start recognizing and picking it up to some extent. I don't really understand the obsession with perfect accent. If a scottish/australian/american accent doesn't annoy you in English, why would a slight chinese/spanish/german one annoy you?

3. Vocabulary count. It's very hard to estimate exact numbers, but in general I'd say the more the better. If you're only familiar with 1000 words (even if you know them really well), you're not going to understand an awful lot. Low vocabulary is going to be more of a barrier to communication/comprehension that using words/grammar incorrectly. The more words you know, the more you'll understand and the more you'll be able to pick up passively.

Inny Jan Wrote:Reading the post here, I noticed that there are at least three points of contention, as far as language learning is concerned:
1. Writing kanji – some say it's pointless, some say it's a must.

That's pretty simplistic. I don't think anyone seriously argues that being able to handwrite kanji is completely pointless. The question is how much time you should spend on it and what level of handwriting ability you "need".

Inny Jan Wrote:As a topic that is listed as a controversial one, you will excuse me from not addressing your objections

I wasn't looking for you to address any of my points. I was looking for you to clarify if you meant vocab in reading or in speech. Or did you happen to miss which one it was in that 'religious' thread?

I apologize if that sounds a bit flippant. I just look at this thread as an attempt to stir up a fire, considering your post barely lists anything in the way current opinions on each of the topics you listed. Its kind of like going on a large forum and being like "People seem to have strong opinions about these things, what do you think?! 1) Abortion 2) Death Penalty 3) Gays! GO!"

[ファブリス]

There are no perfect solutions or methods.

PS: RevTK is the website, RTK is the method.

vix86 Wrote:I just look at this thread as an attempt to stir up a fire, considering your post barely lists anything in the way current opinions on each of the topics you listed. Its kind of like going on a large forum and being like "People seem to have strong opinions about these things, what do you think?! 1) Abortion 2) Death Penalty 3) Gays! GO!"

Agree.

We have much more productive discussions with separate threads on any of those topics.

[ファブリス]

Inny Jan Wrote:As a topic that is listed as a controversial one`(...) However, if the topic will prove itself non-controversial then I'm happy to take it down from the list.

What list are you talking about? (?_?)

ファブリス Wrote:What list are you talking about? (?_?)

The list of controversial topics that I put up at the first post of this thread.

vix86 Wrote:I apologize if that sounds a bit flippant. I just look at this thread as an attempt to stir up a fire, considering your post barely lists anything in the way current opinions on each of the topics you listed. Its kind of like going on a large forum and being like "People seem to have strong opinions about these things, what do you think?! 1) Abortion 2) Death Penalty 3) Gays! GO!"

I would think of two purposes of listing controversial topics like those at the top. The first would be <sarcasm> to provide people on this forum a cheat sheet that they could use when they get bored and think that throwing in some line might bring a discussion to life (admittedly, at the cost of people who would genuinely get involved in such a discussion).</sarcasm>

The second purpose would be to provide a list that allows for easy identification of “touchy” topics so you could steer away from flame wars, strong opinions and big egos. I saw those to many for my liking and I didn't/don't really enjoy them. Different backgrounds, expectations, goals, experience and language skills levels hardly serve a discussion that results in a constructive outcome.

It wasn't my intention to talk about things that I listed above (why, would I like to get involved into yet another bashing of someone's commitment to write kanji?) but if someone by looking at such a list would see a warning sign “Proceed with caution” then my objective would be met.

vix86 Wrote:I was looking for you to clarify if you meant vocab in reading or in speech.

Why do you care asking and why would I care answering?

[ファブリス]

Admin: Closed because: non-productive topic.