I've been seeing on some dramas and anime shows that certain characters will occasionally or frequently roll their R's when they're being rude or arrogant. Is that generally its purpose or is it something else?

Also, how do I learn to do that, because it sounds really cool.

It's meant to be intimidating. It is a 'Yankee' thing for the most part, though since Yankees are wannabe Yakuza maybe it is a Yakuza thing.

It is (to me) a lot like the trilled ''r" in Spanish. Yet another part of Spanish that Japanese can natively get easily.

Lets just start off with, I noticed that too! And I also wanted to know how to peform the aerolar trill or the spanish rolled r. Probably the easiest way was the "vision dream method." It also took me 1 hour to figure out how to finally roll my r's with this method. This method usually works with those who are natural english speakers. Also as a side note, I was about to give up when I decided to finally just force the "si" of vision, and it just magically happened. Afterwards I was able to do after that point, almost like riding a bike.

bassxx2099 Wrote:Lets just start off with, I noticed that too! And I also wanted to know how to peform the aerolar trill or the spanish rolled r. Probably the easiest way was the "vision dream method." It also took me 1 hour to figure out how to finally roll my r's with this method. This method usually works with those who are natural english speakers. Also as a side note, I was about to give up when I decided to finally just force the "si" of vision, and it just magically happened. Afterwards I was able to do after that point, almost like riding a bike.

As a kid, I had to have speech therapy for my R's and L's. This of course meant that rolling an R just wasn't possible either, so I eventually had to learn it. I learned it through constant practice. (After they fixed my Ls and Rs in school, that is.)

One thing I noted in the wikihow page for rolling an R is that your tongue might be too stiff and preventing it. It is very important to note that it isn't something you can use more force and make happen. You have to loosen your tongue. Relax, not strengthen.

And I haven't seen this anywhere else, but it might help. Behind your top teeth, there's a curve to your gums. If I place my tongue there and blow are out of my mouth, I can make my tongue vibrate against my gums. It's the same motion involved with rolling an R and you don't need to be actually making any sound to practice it.

Edit: As a cosmic karmic bonus, my speech issues as a kid made Japanese L/R really easy.

kapalama Wrote:It is (to me) a lot like the trilled ''r" in Spanish. Yet another part of Spanish that Japanese can natively get easily.

This blows me away. My first language is Spanish, and I've never managed to teach anyone how to trill an "r", despite trying very hard. If I were to judge from my (admittedly very limited) experience, I'd have to conclude that trilling "r" is one of those speech skills, like tongue-clicking in xhosa, that must be learned early in life.

Why would a trilled "r" be any easier to the Japanese than any other phonetic feature of Spanish, like the letters L or Z? (The Spanish Z sounds like the beginning of "thanks".)

Edit: Well, I just saw the video that bassxx2099 posted. Dang, one can learn to roll r's, after all! I wish I'd known that trick before. It would have saved me a lot of fruitless coaching.

kapalama Wrote:It is (to me) a lot like the trilled ''r" in Spanish. Yet another part of Spanish that Japanese can natively get easily.

In my experience, the majority of Japanese people cannot easily pronounce this sound, if at all.

This may have been discussed before, but if anyone's normal Japanese 'r' (no trilling involved) sounds weird or more like an english 'r' than you can use a similar method to help improve it.

The word 'water' if pronounced with an native American English accent comes out more like 'wader' and that 'd' is nearly identical to a Japanese 'r'. So you just start with the word 'water' and transform it into various Japanese words with r's in them to get your mouth used to using that r.

e.g.
'wader' --> 'wadu' --> 'madu' --> 'maru'

Once you get it, it usually needs a polishing to make it sound a little more r-like rather than a 'd'

Like I said, this skill can be learned all you have to do is to teach the tounge to began to vibrate using the "si" of vision and it will work after some practice. My friends were so amazed that I learned how to roll my r's so quickly. Also as a side note, I have been trying to roll my r's since I was a kid and to no avail I only spat at people. However, with the "vision dream method" it worked like a charm.

bassxx2099 Wrote:Like I said, this skill can be learned all you have to do is to teach the tounge to began to vibrate using the "si" of vision and it will work after some practice. My friends were so amazed that I learned how to roll my r's so quickly. Also as a side note, I have been trying to roll my r's since I was a kid and to no avail I only spat at people. However, with the "vision dream method" it worked like a charm.

Was there some reason you thought you needed to repeat what you had said 15 hours earlier, but in a different order?

JimmySeal Wrote:Was there some reason you thought you needed to repeat what you had said 15 hours earlier, but in a different order?

Because rolling my r's was something I thought I could never learn. I have been trying since I was a kid. I kind of don't mind if I repeat myself since I am so happy I can finally roll my r's. Who wouldn't be if you could accomplish something you've been trying your whole life for in an hour?

I don't think of it as a rolled r, since it differs a bit from the Spanish "r."

It's more of a rolled "l" haaaahahahahaha.

Anyway, if you're having any trouble with it, it is probably not any physical deficiency and you WILL be able to learn it.

I've tried everything over the years but never could do it, even though I learned the 'regular' Japanese/French 'r' sounds pretty much instantly after hearing them. I've tried every technique ever mentioned. The closest success I've had is with that butter/ladder thing. The zhhhdruh technique as mentioned in above comments/video/Wikihow doesn't work for me at all but I'll keep testing it out.

Heh, I went back to playing with the butter/ladder thingy and I've regained that half-assed thing, I'll try applying it to some Spanish and Japanese words (thanks, My Boss My Hero) and see if I can't make it sound the same.

I too tried unsuccessfully to roll my rs for quite some time (I was inspired by the Tim Horton's rrrrrrroll up the rim to win commercials for any Canadians on here). I can't vouch for the safety of the method that proved successful for me, but as I was practicing one day, I applied pressure to the section of my jaw just above where it meets the neck. I'm not sure how, but I was magically able to roll my r's, and after a bit of practice, could do it without touching my jaw. My best guess is that it helped position my tongue correctly. Don't know if it will work for anyone else, but give it a try if nothing else is working.

That vision dream thing isn't really working for me, but I can get a good half-second roll going if I keep saying これ over and over.

Maybe just learning Japanese will help develop it on its own or something...

Huh. I figured out the whole rolling 'r' thing when I was a kid, mostly out of boredom, but I didn't realize until I saw this topic that I've been using the exact same sound for my Japanese 'r', only without the actual rolling part.

Weird.

Kinda related, but does anyone know of a good method to practice the z-sound of Japanese? My native tongue doesn't have that sound, and when trying to pronounce e.g. ず, it usually ends up sounding like す or つ. Also, is there supposed to be any difference in pronunciation between ず and づ, or ぢ and じ?

Quote:It is (to me) a lot like the trilled ''r" in Spanish.

When initially being taught/coached to produce the l/r mid-range sound, I found myself reaching for the trilled r sound from Spanish. I never actually trilled it, though, just a single... click? I don't know the right linguistic term to use. Same tongue position, though, or real similar, and produces roughly the right sound, a very neutral one. Have to adjust for particulars but it is generally my default (full disclosure: I am not an expert).

I could be entirely wrong on this, but nobody has complained about it yet. In classes I was usually pointed out as an example of someone who was 'doing it right' even though I never quite understood what I was doing. Explaining it generally just got looks of confusion, since I don't think most people I took classes with studied any Spanish.

shang Wrote:Kinda related, but does anyone know of a good method to practice the z-sound of Japanese? My native tongue doesn't have that sound, and when trying to pronounce e.g. ず, it usually ends up sounding like す or つ.

The only thing I can suggest is to compare the subjective difference between any voiced and unvoiced consonants. For instance, if I compare v and f in English, I see that the only difference is that my vocal cords vibrate with v but not with f. Similarly, the only difference between ず and す is that with the former the vocal cords vibrate, but not with the latter. Just say ssssssss, and then "engage" your vocal cords; at this point ssssssss should turn into zzzzzzzz.

shang Wrote:Also, is there supposed to be any difference in pronunciation between ず and づ, or ぢ and じ?

According to Vance (The Sounds of Japanese) historically the sounds were different, but that this difference has disappeared today, at least in the Tokyo dialect.

gfb345 Wrote:The only thing I can suggest is to compare the subjective difference between any voiced and unvoiced consonants. For instance, if I compare v and f in English, I see that the only difference is that my vocal cords vibrate with v but not with f. Similarly, the only difference between ず and す is that with the former the vocal cords vibrate, but not with the latter. Just say ssssssss, and then "engage" your vocal cords; at this point ssssssss should turn into zzzzzzzz.

I can differentiate between the sounds easily enough when I hear them, and I can image the sounds in my head, but I'm just having trouble finding the _concrete_ thing I have to do with my tongue or vocal chords or whatever to create that exact sound.

I imagine it's pretty much the same with native English speakers and the rolling R.

ninetimes Wrote:

Quote:It is (to me) a lot like the trilled ''r" in Spanish.

When initially being taught/coached to produce the l/r mid-range sound, I found myself reaching for the trilled r sound from Spanish. I never actually trilled it, though, just a single... click? I don't know the right linguistic term to use. Same tongue position, though, or real similar, and produces roughly the right sound, a very neutral one. Have to adjust for particulars but it is generally my default (full disclosure: I am not an expert).

I could be entirely wrong on this, but nobody has complained about it yet. In classes I was usually pointed out as an example of someone who was 'doing it right' even though I never quite understood what I was doing. Explaining it generally just got looks of confusion, since I don't think most people I took classes with studied any Spanish.

Me exactly but without the classroom, just immersion technique. It struck me how much Japanese sounds like Spanish. No v sound, R is actually D, turning everyone's name into Italian/SPanish (Roberto, etc.), and all their words have to end in a vowel.

bassxx2099 Wrote:Like I said, this skill can be learned all you have to do is to teach the tounge to began to vibrate using the "si" of vision and it will work after some practice. My friends were so amazed that I learned how to roll my r's so quickly. Also as a side note, I have been trying to roll my r's since I was a kid and to no avail I only spat at people. However, with the "vision dream method" it worked like a charm.

THIS IS AMAZING! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!

kapalama Wrote:No v sound, R is actually D, turning everyone's name into Italian/SPanish (Roberto, etc.), and all their words have to end in a vowel.

Plenty of Japanese words and names end in ん.

When ん appears at the end of a word it's closer to a vowel (a nasal vowel) rather than a consonant.