So I've been working through Tae Kims guide at the same time I've been working through RTK. I'm currently at かんじ # 四百五十(I think that's 450... would appreciate correction if it's not). And decided I wanted to learn a bit more than just Kanji. I know the Kana, and I've slowly been picking up vocab and what not through songs/anime and thought working my way through the grammar would be a good idea.

Well I seem to be having quite a bit of trouble working with the grammar. It doesn't help that he uses a lot of vocab I don't know in his examples. although I have picked up some vocab from it. But the concepts are just seeming kind of difficult to grasp. I went through the state of being exercises and those were fine. Then the introduction to particles which weren't to bad. And now I'm trying to practice with the na-adjectives, and i-adjectives. And it hurt my head.

Did anyone else struggle with learning the grammar and how did you get around it? Should I be trying to get my vocab better so I'm not struggling just trying to know what words he's trying to use or just keep pushing through and hope it falls into place.

To be honest I haven't studied grammar all that much(did tae kim example sentences that's about it) I want to do more, which I will. But in the beginning I think all you need to do is get more exposure, it will eventually help you understand the sentences without much effort.

I studied grammar the traditional way and it sucks...
So I'm trying this:

1) Learn Kanji
2) Learn 6000 words
3) Exposure to sentences (with explanations if available)

NA and I adjective, I feel, are best learned in example sentences along with vocab. One thing I've noticed is that (I) adjective rarely have more than one kanji, while (NA) adjectives are often composed of kanji compounds.

大切 な 人 - compound

馬鹿　な　娘

珍し い 花 - single kanji

悲し　い　時

These aren't rules, just patterns I noticed.

My plan to learn grammar is to completely ignore it until I already know how to speak and write, after which I will continue to ignore it. It worked out okay when I learned my native language.

BoccKob Wrote:My plan to learn grammar is to completely ignore it until I already know how to speak and write, after which I will continue to ignore it. It worked out okay when I learned my native language.

Same here, I think the same way. I just want to learn it now, to help me out with JLPT 2 and 1. Plus to see if it will further my understanding.

Not this again...

BoccKob Wrote:It worked out okay when I learned my native language.

No it didn't. You've been studying grammar your entire life.

@OP - The way I did it was a combination of reading through a guide like Japanese the Manga Way and SRSing its sentences (I never did/don't like Tae Kim), with the aim of deconstructing and understanding how all the words fit together (see the book preview at books.google.com to see the template I'm talking about)... once I had that process down I could use it pretty easily for any sentence in conjunction with various grammar resources/Google.

Doing a guide like that saved me the trouble of having to look up every little point (or worse, pretending I understood it or would magically understand everything after watching enough TV and memorizing vocabulary), but really all the smart.fm sentences are so streamlined and basic, grammar-wise, I didn't have to SRS too many grammar example sentences before it became a simple process.

I recommend you also use the shared Anki deck for Dictionary of Japanese Grammar (8555 sentences) in conjunction with the books (which are available for download online but it would be, um, wrong to pirate them for free. Very wrong).

That latter deck works well as a searchable database for grammar point example sentences, which you can study/grade just for those constructions, either as you come across them elsewhere or in a structured manner according to the books.

ropsta Wrote:No it didn't. You've been studying grammar your entire life.

Not consciously!

Finally, so basically to learn grammar you gotta understand it and then be able to use it. But immersion fixes this. So basically I'll add like 3-5 sentences for reach point of grammar and understand that way. I'll search up examples from the yahoo.jp dictionary(monolingual) -So I can get some good sentences.
I'll go from JLPT 4 to 1 grammar points. This should be fun as I can understand a lot of Japanese(even follow news). So shouldn't take too long, maybe JLPT 2/1 will take some time but the other points shouldn't, I hope.

After grammar points is done for JLPT(all of it). I'll start focusing on production a lot(kana to kanji, do this but not in huge quantities). And production in speaking.

Man, japanese is getting so fun nowadays, more than usual. I feel like I've gotten so far, but still want to keep going until I've got all these skills down.

BoccKob Wrote:Not consciously!

Yeah. You did. Maybe you just don't remember.

I do. In fact, I remember the first time I asked my teacher what "however" meant. I remember reading through English books and being befuddled by all the crap I didn't understand... until AFTER I completed the exercises given to me.

And if you say you didn't learn it consciously because it wasn't a full hearted, deliberate effort on your part, then that means you didn't really learn much of anything consciously. But you did. Because you were given homework... that you did. And you learned. Like all other human beings. Context can't teach everything. And even then, there are exercise that must be done to learn to distinguish between the different contexts.

For basic Japanese grammar:
Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar by ALC Press (a highly recommended book on the RevTK forums)

For particles:
Get the book "All About Particles". It lists pretty much all the particles you'll ever use (including expressions you'd never think were particles).

For every particle, it lists ALL the uses (with multiple example sentences for each use).

So basically, get this book and take any reading passage (whatever you like).

For EVERY particle, try to figure out which way it's being used (for example, the book lists 14 different ways to use the に particle). Keep doing this regularly and after a while, you'll start to understand particles better.

ropsta Wrote:Yeah. You did. Maybe you just don't remember.

I do. In fact, I remember the first time I asked my teacher what "however" meant. I remember reading through English books and being befuddled by all the crap I didn't understand... until AFTER I completed the exercises given to me.

And if you say you didn't learn it consciously because it wasn't a full hearted, deliberate effort on your part, then that means you didn't really learn much of anything consciously. But you did. Because you were given homework... that you did. And you learned. Like all other human beings. Context can't teach everything. And even then, there are exercise that must be done to learn to distinguish between the different contexts.

While I'm sure you remember more about my childhood than I do, most of those assumptions are still false.

BoccKob Wrote:My plan to learn grammar is to completely ignore it until I already know how to speak and write, after which I will continue to ignore it. It worked out okay when I learned my native language.

BoccKob Wrote:

ropsta Wrote:No it didn't. You've been studying grammar your entire life.

Not consciously!

Riiiiight.

I am going to say textbook (runs and hides).

But seriously if you do a textbook you'll understand (and be able to produce) basic grammar. After that I'd use manga / novels / drama etc along with the Dictionaries of Japanese Grammar. And also the JLPT books are good to give an order to learning grammar structures.

Anyone that went to school doesn't get to say 'I never studied grammar'. You studied grammar from first grade on. Every year.

wccrawford Wrote:Anyone that went to school doesn't get to say 'I never studied grammar'. You studied grammar from first grade on. Every year.

I don't know about you but I could speak and understand my favorite cartoons before 1st grade English came along. So no, none of you specifically sat down and learned grammar from some book in order to comprehend your native language.

Now this doesn't mean anything in regards to learning a second language as an adult, but let's not kid ourselves.

activeaero Wrote:

wccrawford Wrote:Anyone that went to school doesn't get to say 'I never studied grammar'. You studied grammar from first grade on. Every year.

I don't know about you but I could speak and understand my favorite cartoons before 1st grade English came along. So no, none of you specifically sat down and learned grammar from some book in order to comprehend your native language.

Now this doesn't mean anything in regards to learning a second language as an adult, but let's not kid ourselves.

It's not just that your statement doesn't mean anything in regards to learning a second language as an adult (e.g. we have prior knowledge and the ability to use metacognition in advanced strategic ways in conjunction with myriad materials), but it also doesn't take away from what wccrawford was implying, nor does it reflect first language development in humans beyond the first few years of life--nor does not necessarily learning personally from a book mean that a child doesn't receive explicit guidance in their language usage, even if the (grammatically consistent per users' having learned the language) input they receive can be filtered down to the very basic knowledge they have, in conjunction with the developing processes of their brains. Savvy?

Anyway, I'm already saturated and satisfied with my knowledge of and the state of learning methods, tools, and current linguistic theories, so I guess I shouldn't involve myself in the old 'we don't ever need to study grammar' nonsense that pops up every so often, we've already got so many past threads to reference. ;p

nest0r Wrote:Anyway, I'm already saturated and satisfied with my knowledge of and the state of learning methods...

This. I know you'll probably tell me to just google it, but I've aleready tried with no significant results, but could you please point me to the direction to the newest learning methods? I don't mean just languages but everything. More specifically, I'm interested in the newest ways of memorizing informaiton (given that you understand it). I've heard of photobooks, I haven't checked them out yet, but I do believe that the newes methods have to do something with visualisation, that is, visualising the information you want to learn (memorize). This consists of 2 ways, basically done paralell: first visalising the info in the book, where it is found physically (on the page), and in the mean time unsing your imaginative memory to simplify it (the info) into mere images, all this in a fraction of a second (at least that's what I do).
Basically it works, but it has its limits. For instance it usually somehow involves my eyes too much, so after a while my eyes get tired instead of my brain, thus I have to take an unwanted brake, and secondly because with this you are also memorizing an awful lot of extra information, (like where the text is on the page exactly, and such), and you are constantly building images in your head, so it needs a lot of energy, a lot more than just plain reading for instance. I've had friends who just read through the learning material, two or three times, and still passed the exam, when I had to struggle real hard with the aforementioned technique.
Or maybe I'm just retarded, or they were geniuses
Anyway, could you please tell me your opinion about this? Or, could you tell me just to google it? (Seriously, all sites which might hold some relevant information are not free of charge, and I don't know which to choose....)

BoccKob Wrote:My plan to learn grammar is to completely ignore it until I already know how to speak and write, after which I will continue to ignore it. It worked out okay when I learned my native language.

Too bad it won't work out okay now. Take a peek through any of the Dictionary of Japanese Grammar books and tell me how much it hurt when your jaw hit your desk. There's WAY too much details when it comes to Japanese grammar which I can guarantee you won't pick up from exposure, even if you live in Japan for 5-10 years. From a foreign country, it's probably never going to happen.

Tobberoth Wrote:

BoccKob Wrote:My plan to learn grammar is to completely ignore it until I already know how to speak and write, after which I will continue to ignore it. It worked out okay when I learned my native language.

Too bad it won't work out okay now. Take a peek through any of the Dictionary of Japanese Grammar books and tell me how much it hurt when your jaw hit your desk. There's WAY too much details when it comes to Japanese grammar which I can guarantee you won't pick up from exposure, even if you live in Japan for 5-10 years. From a foreign country, it's probably never going to happen.

Agreed!! Once you see how detailed the descriptions are and how many minor things play a significant role in determining usage & meaning of each grammar point you will weep at the amount of things you need to learn. I'm talking here about the Basic one, I didn't have the courage to open Intermediate.

@OP: learn grammar slowly with lots of exposure and you will start "getting" it. If you're doing JLPT then just cram all thats needed into SRS with lots of examples and let it work its magic.

IceCream Wrote:@Raschaverak:
the best way of memorising information i've ever come across is the srs. Let it do it's job, and everything works out fine in the long term. Using multiple modes of processing information (i.e. pictures and audio) can help with retaining things. Also using a question / answer method will help to make strong memories since spaced repetition of tests rather than just facts, leads to the strongest results (because srsing effectively allows you to produce side B from seeing side A).

Don't pay for accessing any site related to information on the internet. They are usually scams, i think. Just get anki, and stick with it!!

Thanks, for the tip IceCream. Funny you should mention Anki, I've never really began to use it, but even if it's effective on the long term, it's still very ineffective in the short term, not to mention making you own decks (meaning: typing in information) can take a huuuge amount of your time
So I'm looking for something, some method designed specifically for the short term memory (=~ cramming), which can be applied directly, without typing a lot on info into a program on the computer, or writing things on a paper, ect., then use anki to fortify it for the long term memory. But this method, should definitely exclude using a computer, I've been speding way too much time in front of it aleready...
Or maybe I've just phrased my question the wrong way, I should've just asked nestor about his current applied studying methods

I did RTK, then I SRS'd Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar. When I was finished the book my understanding of basic Japanese grammar was pretty poor. I also read about half of Tae Kim's page.

I recently started taking lessons at MLC in Tokyo, and it's helping my speaking and my grammar comprehension immensely. Due to doing RTK and UBJG I can read somewhat fast, and have a basic foundation of vocabulary. Also previously covering all the grammar topics makes learning easier the second time around.

I'm not sure what other people think of this, but I recently decided to stop my SRS reviews of RTK after 8 months because I'm tired of doing them. I wanted to write 銀行 the other day on my homework and couldn't think of it. So instead of doing RTK reviews I'm just going to focus on writing words for my kanji writing practice. I also am stopping my UBJG reviews because I'm also tired of them. Instead I've started SRSing Japanese Sentence Patterns for Effective Communication, and after that I will probably get around to 2001KO. I also started a straight vocab deck, which I'm liking.

Previously I was a naysayer to taking lessons and a textbook basher, but now I think if you go to a good school it's well worth your time and money in the beginning at least. The one I go to uses Japanese for busy people, which is a decent book so far. It's a little annoying in that it uses only kana and no kanji, but at least it is geared toward an adult unlike the Genki series. I don't think I would use Japanese for busy people for self study though, it would be far too dry.

I don't think you will be able to understand grammar to a useful level without actively studying it in some form. I know I wasn't able to, maybe others can pick it up though.

IceCream Wrote:but... what are you trying to memorise that would need you to remember it for short amounts of time? I doubt nest0r is doing anything that involves this.

Actually, making cards doesn't take up a huge amount of time... if you are taking information from the internet, most of the time it's just a simple copy / paste / edit thing.

For short term memory, still the most effective way is writing out facts by hand, as far as i'm aware. Trying to have some kind of photographic memory isn't likely to be very effective, and neither is just reading information. Neither are the many other memory techniques that are out there. Differences in what people can retain just by reading is generally down to differences in their ways of structuring information in their head, and how they engage with the material when they study it. But honestly, it sounds like you're looking for a shortcut that just doesn't exist. The time spent on anki is likely to be the most effective use of your time. Remember that "long term" in relation to anki is 21 days. Unless the information is structured really badly, you should be remembering it 80-90% or more after 21 days.

You're right IceCream There is no shortcut. And if that's a given, than I can conclude based on my current studying speed and capabilities, that I'm just not meant for academic learning, or learning in general, since I will never achieve my goals, with this puny brain of mine.....and since several poeple / studies suggest that this can't really be changed, we have to make do with what we've been given, I feel like I should just give up. I really, really envy people who can learn fast and have a good memory, knowledge is everything for me, so nature was a little sarcastic, giving me tihs puny brain, thus making impossible to acquire all the knowledge I want....too bad. Oh well, I guess I'll stick to Anki for now, and see where it goes....