Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 157
Thanks:
0
I'm now starting to write out Japanese sentences longhand, to practice my kana and kanji-writing skills. (I do this in conjunction with the Core 2000 decks I'm using in Anki. And yes, I also practice typing on the computer, using Core 2000's sentence-dictation feature.) I'm getting quicker, but it still takes me a while to hand-write even the simplest sentence. Ironically, the kana sometimes take me longer than the kanji! I've spent so much time with RTK1 that I've neglected to practice my kana, especially my katakana, ugh. I can write some 20-stroke kanji faster than some kana! But in general, my kanji- and kana-writing is on the slow side.
So I'm curious: how fast do native Japanese speakers hand-write? Faster or slower than we English speakers? The "stroke count" of many English sentences seems lower to me, which might imply that we write faster, but then again I'm obviously more accustomed to writing things out in English. And yes, I know that computer-typing is very much the norm these days, but I'm sure plenty of people still hand-write notes and such. Actually, I'd also be curious whether Japanese typists type faster than English typists. Anyone have any thoughts or info on all this?
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,944
Thanks:
11
The necessity of using the IME tends to make Japanese typing slower than English (depending on the quality of the IME, of course), but obviously there's going to be a lot of differences between individual typists.
Most Japanese can handwrite fairly quickly because they use pseudo-cursive styles that make it a lot faster than tracing each stroke out.
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,944
Thanks:
11
I don't have any references, but logically, having to check every sentence you type to make sure the characters are being converted correctly (and fixing mistakes when they occur), and the hoops you have to jump through to get things that aren't in the IME to display are going to make it generally slower than simply being able to hit keys and have the symbol directly display without any further action. It's true that Japanese usually involves fewer symbols than English but since most people type in romaji anyway, the difference isn't as large since each kana is taking 2 keystrokes.
Edited: 2010-05-12, 5:42 pm
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 295
Thanks:
0
I can personally type in Japanese almost as fast as English for the same rough meaning, but English is so much more relaxing to type in. For example I'm typing this message while watching TV. If I was typing in Japanese I'd have to be looking at my IME to make word selections and all that.
Also the numerical typing (1-9 on a phone) is so much faster in Japanese than in English.
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 295
Thanks:
0
2 minutes. I'm disappointed in you.
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 295
Thanks:
0
I was a weird kid, and my dad was the same way, so in a way it was "normal". We also found out later that I'm partially deaf too, which probably didn't help. I was able to read a fair bit before grade school, but didn't talk fluently until middle or high school. Even now I use subtitles while watching English movies/tv/etc. It's just way too tiring for my brain to listen only, which I always found interesting because most people think the opposite (listening is easier than reading).
My Japanese skills seem more balanced than my English, probably because I'm training the skills more evenly. I find it so much easier to just read subtitles than to listen, so I never get practice just listening. However in Japanese I do practice it.
I'll have to read more of those links when I get home tonight.
btw, I blame you, nest0r, for this thread going so off track.
Edited: 2010-05-12, 6:17 pm
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,944
Thanks:
11
As far as subvocalization goes, it's not something you can detect in yourself -- it doesn't mean literally moving your lips or having to sound out each word, it just means that your vocal cords or related things are moving; for some people it can't be detected without equipment.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 578
Thanks:
3
About writing -- the native Japanese teacher who teaches the conversation class I'm in writes kanji at a pretty quick pace, while making it very neat and legible. If I write as quick as she does, my kanji look pretty pathetic. If I write about half as fast as she writes, then I can make them look probably about half as neat. This is only my situation though... going from the "post your handwriting" thread that was up awhile ago, there are probably more people who've come to accomplish writing fancy looking kanji.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,582
Thanks:
0
What constitutes subvocalization can range from brain signatures associated with auditory-verbal imagery and articulatory-kinesthetic processing, to self-awareness of barely liminal vocal movements, to really overt and deliberate movements just short of speech, to varying degrees of subjective 'loudness'. If you have schizophrenia, you might have serious problems self-monitoring your inner speech and experience AVH (auditory-verbal hallucinations) where you attribute your own inner speech as heard voices. ;p
That and other stuff related to general supramodal, kludgey language/reading requirements and processes depends on script, learning methods, and physiological constraints, as per references and rambles in above-linked threads.
As for writing, I'm pretty fast and natural at it, and my speed/effort isn't much different from my English handwriting, my Japanese writing being a side-effect of using muscle memory to help encode/recall the language. When I write at speed, it's definitely not as neat as my English handwriting (which ironically became more refined at some point while doing RTK) or my slower paced, more focused Japanese writing, though. It looks similar to my English handwriting with my off hand, which feels natural still but which I've fallen out of practice with.
From what I've seen of native handwriting, on average it's no neater than your average English handwriting, with the usual effects of haste.
Of course, girls always have better handwriting. It's from the same genetic trait that makes their cake-icing skills so good.
Edited: 2010-05-12, 11:06 pm
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 209
Thanks:
0
Maybe I'm crazy but my kanji change depending on the day. Some days I write fast and extremely accurate. The kind of writing where I'll sit back, and go "Wow, I wrote that?" Next day it'll look like the same way as it did to me a year ago: squiggly lines.
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 429
Thanks:
0
"Of course, girls always have better handwriting. It's from the same genetic trait that makes their cake-icing skills so good."
Not to mention their icing licking skills. Uncalled for? Almost certainly...
And to the post: Idk about japanese people but Chinese people write lightning fast, but it is often highly illegible even to my chinese roommate. In my opinion it is not really like writing characters at all since they skip strokes and just squiggle here and there, and often the kanji can only be recognized in context, even by native. But I do know that when they write characters in a fast and legible way that I am just as fast as they are, so in other words imo, they don't write legibly any faster than someone who has studied kanji and writing diligently everyday for a year does. But then again I want to learn to squiggle to because I want to get my speed up there.
But anyways the people on here who say you will develop a natural handwriting all on your own are outright incorrect, at least in china, because my roommate has shown me quite a few of the handwritten alternatives to some kanji and they are entirely different, stroke counts at times cut in half and more often than not very circular in shape. It is very much a learned skill in itself apart from writing in the standard font.
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 157
Thanks:
0
Thanks for all the interesting replies. I tried to find some scholarly studies on the question I raised in the original post, but I'm not a linguist, and I had trouble finding anything reliable using good old Google. In particular, I wonder if any academics have done formal studies comparing languages by hand-writing speed -- and by reading speed.
E.g., do Japanese folks write on average slower than Americans, or do they write just as fast but make more shortcuts like those Yonosa described? Shortcuts would be hard to quantify, though.
I suppose it would also be hard to quantify reading speed. I'm curious whether kanji and hanza speed reading recognition, since in theory they pack more meaning into a smaller space, but I suppose it would be a tough thing to test empirically.
Anyway, thank you again for a series of interesting replies.
