After completing RTK1 I feel very demotivated, before I could study 50-100 kanji a day, but right now I feel like I don´t have any reason to do that.

I want to move on to sentences as fast as possible, but these reviews are killing me, I´m sick of learning kanji for now. In the end I end up not doing any sentences and not reviewing any kanji.

If I quit reviewing kanji and ll will look up the meanings of the kanji I forgot, while I learn sentences...would it make it harder for me? Does anyone have any experience?

I guess I would spend about 2 hours on sentences each day, if I would allow myself to do it...

Do NOT stop reviewing, ever. Let the SRS do exactly what it is supposed to do. If you know the Kanji well the reviews will drop off dramatically. If the reviews don't drop off then it simply means you NEED to keep reviewing them.

You think it sucks now, because it is all you know, but trust me you will look back at RTK1 as being one of the easiest things you've done in the pursuit of learning Japanese.

I agree^^

If you feel like your reviews are a complete waste of your time, then up the intervals so you get fewer cards.

If you just completely stop reviewing you WILL forget unless you write a lot (on paper). Even then you'll forget the less common characters.

Very true, I agree with everyone here.
If your reviews are a waste of time, start hitting the "Easy" button. It makes them die down quickly.

I still have about 40 reviews a day, but I get it done pretty quick. I could probably "Easy" a lot of them, but I'm a fan of my "hit or miss" way of reviewing. Plus they get done really fast.

If you haven't already you might want to switch to Anki. I believe Anki's algorithm is a little better for spacing out mature material, thus reducing workload.

Here's my perspective: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...4#pid99734

I quit after a month or so and just did Core 2000/KO2001. Worked great for me, so I say whatever works best for you.

I'd recommend only switching over to sentences and quitting RTK for mature RTK cards--I took 6 months to finish RTK and most of my cards were mature, and I never had trouble relearning the few kanji I was really fuzzy on by the time they came around in sentences. Likewise, with new kanji, it's really easy to pick them up because once you finish RTK, that method is well mastered.

@nest0r:

I assume you are not doing any writing then...

..which is perfectly acceptable. I live in Japan and work in a Japanese office and I rarely have to write anything in Japanese with a pen other than my address.

However, if writing is an important skill to you then you have to keep doing SRS forever, or do lots of writing (essays etc) by hand.

Why would you assume that? I write constantly. In fact, I stress writing in every single post! I especially stress motor processes even when you don't care about handwriting. See above-linked thread and other 500 comments where I link to papers about muscle memory. ;p

To quote myself from that thread:

nest0r Wrote:I pointed it out in the above comment already but stopping RTK does not mean stopping writing ('writing' being writing with finger, mentally writing it, handwriting, tablet, etc., whenever you're feeling fuzzy on it or learning something new).

Whether you want to write the kanji or not, it's very valuable to continue incorporating motor processes: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...2#pid81142

Developing an internal motor program to facilitate recall and supplement encoding through gesture, on a spaced schedule. &c. ;p

So then what writing are you doing to compensate for the lack of SRS kanji reviews? If you are doing J-E sentences then copying down what's on the screen doesn't really test memory (although it's better than nothing).

Most people don't have to write enough in daily life to get enough writing practice. That is both why SRS is a key tool, and why writing is perhaps not a vital skill.

As I'm doing Kanji to Concept cards, What I'm doing now is adding Onyomi tests to all my RTK cards in an organized fashion.

This is not the first time, and likely not the last, I altered how I tested Kanji. Not only did it keep the reviewing fresh, but it made it more difficult to compensate for my growing comfort with Kanji.

Examples you can do

1. Do both Keyword to Kanji and Kanji to Concept (note, this really increases the amount you review).

2. Along with the Keyword, add a block to list common Japanese words that use that kanji (written in kana naturally with the yomi for the kanji highlighted in some way.).

3. Along with the Kanji, add a block to list common Japanese words that use that kanji (written in Kanji naturally, with the kanji highlighted in some way).

4. Highlight or somehow mark cards that tell you to test the Onyomi pronunciation of those cards.

In truth, if you start with a deck that has all the above info already there, then it's just a matter of manipulating Anki so that you're testing cards as you like. Common kanji you could test Japanese words to meaning where as uncommon kanji you might stay with English keywords.

PS: I think the only thing missing that'll make a perfect "RevTK" Anki deck is a one that has a block with words drawn from common Japanese words.

There is an Anki plug-in, but it lists Kanji, Kana and English translations of the words all in one block. A better plug-in would separate all them into three different blocks, allowing the user to then design cards that tests in a cool way. Probably limited to a max of 4 to 6 word choices.

Example
Q: りれき; がくれき; けいれき; れきし
A: 履歴; 学歴; 経歴; 歴史
A: Heisig Keyword, Kanji meanings, Stroke count, etc.

In the above, it's not about knowing what the words mean. It's about knowing how to write that individual kanji 歴 and what it basically means. It can be made easier by putting keywords and meaning in the Question field.

It's not a stretch to do reverse cards that test Kanji to Onyomi the same way. These are easier to test of course.

The more organized you are in creating your Anki cards, the more versatile you can be in changing them up later.

Jarvik7 Wrote:So then what writing are you doing to compensate for the lack of SRS kanji reviews? If you are doing J-E sentences then copying down what's on the screen doesn't really test memory (although it's better than nothing).

Most people don't have to write enough in daily life to get enough writing practice. That is both why SRS is a key tool, and why writing is perhaps not a vital skill.

There's no need to do 'active recall' (keyword to kanji) for kanji if you've already learned them to maturity and are simply maintaining them through constant exposure in sentences, writing them out when you're fuzzy on them, writing them out whenever you learn new words (I write them out from memory after a glance, this is partly how I tell if I'm fuzzy on them), using the post-RTK 'meaning' of the kanji in definitions (I mean in the abstract [i.e. not necessarily keyword/story] as you connect it to a word, kind of instantaneous if you know the kanji well, otherwise take a second to recall the keyword/story or another second to relearn if you're fuzzy on it), pairing up the sounds with the word (especially when you're systematically learning readings post RTK), having the overall context... Likewise with new kanji if you've already learned a couple thousand+... I spend very little time worrying about kanji, overall.

To quote myself again. ;p

nest0r Wrote:... precisely because the trend seems to be that recognition is increasing and even usage might be or can increase (I'm not sure about what surveys say about the latter but to me the logic is sound that if people can produce kanji more easily with a computer, they'll end up using and thus seeing them more) thanks to typing and IME/etc., I think that's why it's more important than ever to have a way to incorporate muscle memory into the learning process. I use 'muscle memory' as a loose term. More: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...4#pid96254

I ditched RTK reviews a while ago and I'm very happy with it.

Just as you described I also used to procrastinate a lot instead of doing RTK first and then sentences/vocabulary/Japanese. This made me hate doing reviews and because I was postponing it so much I usually didn't have time for anything else.
Now I just review vocabulary (much easier than RTK) and then do something more productive.

I don't write by hand since graduating and I don't see why it would change in Japan.

Mind you I've been reviewing RTK for a couple of months before I dropped them. RTK is helpful in further learning but training just for trainings sake is pointless IMHO.

just keep rating it easy if it gives you problems.

Well I went the lazy route too, i.e. I stopped reviewing the keywords, not so much because of the reviews themselves but because of the English keywords. I tried a long time ago switching to Japanese keywords but didn't enjoy the mix, so I decided to just ditch the RTK reviews and read everyday, focusing reviews on sentences/vocabulary. I think at some point if you have too many things to review it just postpones the moment where you'll start reading native material, which is a shame.
Nevertheless, since I don't have Nestor's discipline, I intend to go back to the Japanese keywords at some point. I have to say that without the extra exercise that Nestor is doing my writing ability went down. On the other hand spending a lot of time reading and learning vocabulary my (passive) knowledge of words went way up, so that I expect the Japanese keywords to be much easier next time I try them. Hmmm, I though wrightak was going to put up an update on his list, I'll go ask on that thread.

In summary, if reviewing RTK is keeping you from spending more time on native stuff, dropping them is a possibility, but you have to be aware of its drawbacks or be careful.

Edit: apparently profanity is censored on this forum.
F
u
c
k

that

s
h
i
t

As most people have said, its probably a bad idea to stop your RTK reviews because it will have a negative effect on your ability to write kanji by hand and will obviously hinder your ability to remember the English keyword (not that that is very important).


But the op said that s/he is struggling to finish reviews so that s/he can do real studying and I think its a shame that it is this way. Just do a few RTK reviews a day so that you get a little bit of time on it and don't completely forget the stories and primitives and then drop it like its hot. Just ***** it. Do your sentences. Do your reading. Do whatever it is that you do to get you in the language. Just ***** RTK in the ass and forget about it until you want to do it again. Its really only use is to get you familiar with Kanji and your at that point. So have fun and ***** RTK in the ass.

bizarrojosh Wrote:Edit: apparently profanity is censored on this forum.
Fuck that shit

As most people have said, its probably a bad idea to stop your RTK reviews because it will have a negative effect on your ability to write kanji by hand and will obviously hinder your ability to remember the English keyword (not that that is very important).


But the op said that s/he is struggling to finish reviews so that s/he can do real studying and I think its a shame that it is this way. Just do a few RTK reviews a day so that you get a little bit of time on it and don't completely forget the stories and primitives and then drop it like its hot. Just fuck it. Do your sentences. Do your reading. Do whatever it is that you do to get you in the language. Just fuck RTK in the ass and forget about it until you want to do it again. Its really only use is to get you familiar with Kanji and your at that point. So have fun and fuck RTK in the ass.

Fixed that profanity problem for you. Not sure it improved your argument though.

Everyone thanks for your ideas!
In conclusion, I guess I will start doing reviews for 1 hour each day, and the leftover time will be spent on learning sentences or reading.

@bizarrojosh: coprolalia (you might want to get that checked)

you never stop learning/reviewing but there will be a time when you become really really good in Japanese. Fluency, native-level,etc

The problem I see again, and that no one really seems to address, is WHY would you still have long RTK that are a "pain" to do if you actually knew them really well? Especially if you move everything over to Anki.

For example I've added 34 sentence/vocab cards per day for the past 30 days. After all of that my number of due cards today is sitting at only 112. And that's with me constantly adding a decent chunk of new cards ever single day.

If you're "done" with RTK, actually KNOW the Kanji, and are using Anki, then the number of daily reviews should plummet to such a level that the amount of time to review should be ridiculously short. And if it is just simply THAT hard to get your mind to click on the "review" button for your RTK deck then simply merge it into your vocab deck so you can't ignore it.

And this is coming from someone who quit reviewing RTK. It was a mistake. If you can make the excuse that your RTK reviews are getting in the way of "real" Japanese learning then you don't know your RTK cards very well. 50 mature cards should take you all of 4-5 minutes to review. I mean that literally. If you take more than 5 seconds per card then you don't know it very well.

@activeaero - I already covered that, for the record. ;p

But to reiterate: For me, precisely because I know them so well, I see no point in doing them in a separate deck when you can just do them in words/sentences, and you don't have to continue using English keywords or taking the time to replace keywords in a separate deck.

@Thora

***** you.


Jk. In all seriousness, I was a bit intoxicated.

I stopped doing my reviews after I moved to Japan- not consciously but after letting the pile get to 800 and getting it back to 0 and then 1000 I just eventually let go. I don't regret it, but I definitely can't write any more.

That's also a product of the environment though- I hardly ever had to write anything in Japan- I used my cell phone and computer constantly. My production of kanji is rubbish, but my recognition is just fine.

It all depends on what you want- I don't really have any desire to write, aside from on a computer.

I've seen a lot of these threads regarding ditching RtK reviews or not. I've only been done since December and have never quit my reviews. Sometimes let them pile up for a few days but that's about it.

From what I've read from numerous posters (both those who've never quit and those who have), it seems that the result is always the same. It doesn't matter if you love your RtK reviews, hate them, or if you're a kanji god and remember everything 100%. Seems most people say that, unless you're actively doing some form of writing or writing practice daily, your writing ability will slowly diminish until the only kanji you can write efficiently are the ridiculously easy ones with low stroke counts.

I guess it's just a matter of "is the ability to write kanji important to me?" If the answer is no, and you're getting tons of Japanese exposure/studying in other aspects of your Japanese, I'd say ditch them if they're really cutting into your "native" Japanese studying.

On the flipside, I also agree with the people saying "they shouldn't be cutting into your study time that much." if it's taking you that much time to do your RtK reviews, then you don't know them very well.

Also, some may argue that you may lose your memory of the English keywords. While it may be a moot point, I personally still find use with the English keywords even though they can be annoying as all hell sometimes. I haven't had enough exposure to be able to remember compounds by remembering similar readings and such yet (aside from a very few kanji), and I can say the English keywords have been of immense help to me as a stepping stone for remembering how to write compounds in this very beginning stage of Japanese.

Just my two cents.