nest0r Wrote:To many it feels racist in the sense that it's widely associated with a cultural stereotype: impoverished Vietnamese girl prostituting herself, exploited/raped during wartime (in the film the quote's taken from and of course the whole sex tourism thing in Southeast Asian and other areas) and mocked and parodied for having poor English and desperately offering herself to the American male, repeated ad nauseam in varying ways, often by racists, at least in my experience.

Is it a parody or is it a phrase a person in that area might have actually heard? The phrase seems to be singled out and the context completely taken away. Was the scene put in the movie to be an hilarious parody or what it put in the movie to be a realistic portrayal of life in the city at that time? Did Kubrick want to make fun of Vietnamese prostitutes? Maybe we should be insulted by the camera thief as well?

nest0r Wrote:It's not rocket science, pretending to be, through association, a negative stereotype through quotes and stereotyped language, be it broken English, street slang associated with African Americans, a lisp and catchphrases taken from Bravo, it is offensive to many, even if you don't mean it in a racist way.

That's just the thing. When I was in high school, there were less than 20 blacks students, my self included. Sometimes the students would attempt to talk slang to me. I did not automatically assume they were racist for doing this. They had a one-sided perspective based on images they saw on TV. They were ignorant. So much in fact that it was funny. All they had to do was converse with me to find out that I spoke much the same way they did, only slightly faster. I'm sure they felt silly afterward.

There were of course a few racists who would throw out slang in a mocking and condescending tone, but those guys were.... only one guy.

Quote:And of course, if they aren't offended, that means no one can find it offensive/has any reason to find it offensive, so hopefully someone can settle the issue for everyone by saying they or someone they know isn't bothered by it.

Whew, think I predicted every response. Have I? ;p

You've told me how it is offensive. And we've accepted that not every one will be offended. Where is it inherently racist? I would think this depended solely on its use. Like if you were to start referring to asian women, shoes, shows, or pretty much anything you hated as "me love you long times."

smackle Wrote:This is a phrase that is constantly thrown at American females of Asian descent today that only serves to demean them. It effectively alienates them and turns them cheap.

Alienation sure. You could also alienate them simply by referring to them as "Asian." Consider that for a moment. Also, how does a phrase turn a person cheap?

Mcjon01 Wrote:Huntington Beach is pretty close to Garden Grove, which has a huge Vietnamese community. I'd wager, then, that the default "Asian" stereotype in the area is Vietnamese

Now we're starting to get the heart of the issue.

kazelee Wrote:Is it a parody or is it a phrase a person in that area might have actually heard? The phrase seems to be singled out and the context completely taken away. Was the scene put in the movie to be an hilarious parody or what it put in the movie to be a realistic portrayal of life in the city at that time? Did Kubrick want to make fun of Vietnamese prostitutes? Maybe we should be insulted by the camera thief as well?

Err, no one was calling the movie racist. FullMetalJacket was a serious commentary which is arguably anti-war. What is racist (and sexist) is using the phrase to effectively call random Asian women cheap whores who'll sucky sucky five dolla simply because they are Asian women, or to make light out of women being forced into prostitution to invading/occupying imperialistic forces.

Would you find it acceptable if you got 5% off at KFC if you told the cashier "I sure do like watermelon massah" or "Massah'll whip me if I don't pick this cotton faster"? Or if you got free pickles at Subway if you made jokes about gassing Jews? It's the exact same thing.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Err, no one was calling the movie racist. FullMetalJacket was a serious commentary which is arguably anti-war. What is racist (and sexist) is using the phrase to effectively call random Asian women cheap whores who'll sucky sucky five dolla simply because they are Asian women, or to make light out of women being forced into prostitution to invading/occupying imperialistic forces.

So it's all in how you use it?

Quote:Would you find it acceptable if you got 5% off at KFC if you told the cashier "I sure do like watermelon massah" or "Massah'll whip me if I don't pick this cotton faster"? Or if you got free pickles at Subway if you made jokes about gassing Jews? It's the exact same thing.

I like how you slipped that Jew thing in there.

Having an Vietnamese prostitute in a serious movie about the Vietnam war is acceptable.

Treating that as a joke in a promotion is offensive.

lulz human trafficking can I haz edamame now?

Jarvik7 Wrote:Having an Vietnamese prostitute in a serious movie about the Vietnam war is acceptable.

Treating that as a joke in a promotion is offensive.

lulz human trafficking can I haz edamame now?

That was obvious. I was asking how the phrase itself is racist.

Offshore Wrote:Today I learned that Spiderman was an important part of Bible history

Don't know how the heck I missed this one. Patently offensive, and yet, strangely hypnotic.

The phrase is racist for what it represents, not for the literal meaning.

Same as nigger meaning the color black, gook being just the last part of Hanguk (Korean for Korea), and nip being the first part of Nippon, but represents much more.

kazelee Wrote:

Mcjon01 Wrote:Huntington Beach is pretty close to Garden Grove, which has a huge Vietnamese community. I'd wager, then, that the default "Asian" stereotype in the area is Vietnamese

Now we're starting to get the heart of the issue.

Perhaps it was the Vietnamese that started it, because racist jokes are only funny if it's self-demeaning.

The only jokes I have for Garden Grove is that there's one street that only has adult bookstores and gun shops, and they alternate with each other. That, and I also found a fruit store that was open 24 hours. Guess if you ever get that 3AM craving for Cherimoya, you know where to go.

Anyway, I would never eat at RA Sushi. Mall sushi is not very appetizing.

----

Today I learned that making Takoyaki for breakfast takes much longer than I anticipated, and caused me to be late to work.

Jarvik7 Wrote:The phrase is racist for what it represents, not for the literal meaning.

Same as the N word simply meaning the color black, Gook being just the last part of Hanguk (Korean for Korea), and Nip being the first part of Nippon, but represents much more.

I've yet to hear of a person being called a "me luv you long time." It's not a racial slur. It's a phrase spoken by a character in a movie. Save for stupid people saying it to "Asian" women, I've rarely seen it used in any sort of negative light.

Calling it racist throws out the meaning of the phrase and only focuses on the negative context in which a few oddballs use it.

Edit: You went back and added nigger.... interesting.

kainzero Wrote:The only jokes I have for Garden Grove is that there's one street that only has adult bookstores and gun shops, and they alternate with each other. That, and I also found a fruit store that was open 24 hours. Guess if you ever get that 3AM craving for Cherimoya, you know where to go.

Ha, that's incredibly funny to me. Mostly because my grandparents live in Garden Grove, and one time when I was visiting them I decided I was going to find a bookstore to hang out in for a while. I ended up in another city entirely before I found one that wasn't an adult bookstore, a Vietnamese bookstore, or an adult Vietnamese bookstore.

I thought it was out of place to censor that and leave the others as is.

are we really having a discussion over whether or not using that phrase is racist? c'mon...

Today I learned that this thread has been horribly derailed from its original purpose and has been co-opted by forum extremists.

kazelee Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:The phrase is racist for what it represents, not for the literal meaning.

Same as the N word simply meaning the color black, Gook being just the last part of Hanguk (Korean for Korea), and Nip being the first part of Nippon, but represents much more.

I've yet to hear of a person being called a "me luv you long time." It's not a racial slur. It's a phrase spoken by a character in a movie. Save for stupid people saying it to "Asian" women, I've rarely seen it used in any sort of negative light.

Calling it racist throws out the meaning of the phrase and only focuses on the negative context in which a few oddballs use it.

Edit: You went back and added nigger.... interesting.

I'm utterly baffled here. Are you being serious?

IceCream Wrote:i just learnt that Gordon Brown has resigned as prime minister, as the lib dems get cosy with the conservative party.

A sad, sad day, on so many levels. T_T




p.s. i don't think Kaze was saying anything about whether using it that way is racist, only that the phrase isn't inherantly racist in itself (or that using any kind of broken english isn't racist in itself), but depends on context. Which is fair enough...

Except it doesn't depend on context. The default mode of this phrase is racist, it always has been, from its inception in cinema onward. Ignorance of this doesn't make it any less racist. At most, a specific context can offset the associated racism by acting as a critique in much the same way as the original film, but it would have to be quite explicit about setting up the 'role play' as a critique in order to do this.

nest0r Wrote:The default mode of this phrase is racist, it always has been, from its inception in cinema onward.

The line isn't "racist" or in any way meant to be offensive in the original film. It was just a throw-away line in a pretty serious movie, that due to it's memorability has stuck in public conciousness.

aphasiac Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:The default mode of this phrase is racist, it always has been, from its inception in cinema onward.

The line isn't "racist" or in any way meant to be offensive in the original film. It was just a throw-away line in a pretty serious movie, that due to it's memorability has stuck in public conciousness.

Yes, the line is racist and was used that way in the film in order to make a larger critique. No, ignorance of this film's usage of a Vietnamese prostituted mocked in her grammatically incorrect propositions for paid sex doesn't detract from the racist meaning as it's used now, but it does lend itself to further discriminatory feelings for those aware of the original usage.

While it's a film and you don't have to agree with every interpretation of it, and different theories about it will vary, between the original novel and the adaptation and its reception, it's pretty clear. Here's an example: http://books.google.com/books?id=JWWbvD5...et&f=false

See in particular the references to the female sniper (First mocking the prostitute's language when being propositioned, echoing the ungrammatical words, especially the phrase 'boom-boom' for sex, and then later the female sniper is shot and someone says 'No more boom-boom for this baby-san'), 'stories' about Vietnamese women much the same as the proverbial child with the bomb (Platoon?), and the bit about making the sexual relations 'mercenary' rather than 'rape' directly, in the context of the things the linked book discusses (rape in the Vietnam war).

This quote has always been recognized as a mockery, a racial stereotype. Widely recognized in this way. This is why it's racist, however and wherever you use it, unless you can universally guarantee it won't be a loaded phrase because of its explicit use as a critique that's immediately clear to all who hear it or some hidden overwhelming utility to the phrase that drowns out all other associations, unknown until now.

You might be able to get by with such phrases among friends, but that's about it. The gig's up once it's at a point where you're defending it (well, at the point where someone besides them is aware of it).

Growing up a non-Vietnamese Asian in America, let me tell you that this phrase is spoken to East Asians and Southeast Asians in general. People said it from elementary school all the way to high school. I think it's a bit of a deal when children are taught this not racist behavior and a grade schooler is essentially called a prostitute.

IceCream Wrote:i suppose Kubrick should have presented her using the queens english instead

Other directors and scripts have surely made use of a foreign character in a loaded historical situation (Britain/India?) involving the skewed power dynamics of the racial 'Other' speaking excellent English, and in doing so probably shaped such an encounter between English characters and a foreign character speaking perfect English so that it had a critique of colonialism inherent in it.

In that case, since the expected default is correct English and thus it no longer acts as a key to unlock the associations of those power dynamics, it would require a different marginalized context to make the grammar part of the loaded phrase again, such as a group of African Americans who speak in a certain slangy way mocking someone by speaking textbook-perfect English, maybe accusing them of being too 'white-washed'. This is a scenario that has occurred often. That Chapelle fellow even wryly commented on this in an Actor's Guild interview, I believe. The FMJ line about '5 dollar' and 'anyting you want' is also echoed in MIA's song re: India + colonialism.

Smackle Wrote:Growing up a non-Vietnamese Asian in America, let me tell you that this phrase is spoken to East Asians and Southeast Asians in general. People said it from elementary school all the way to high school. I think it's a bit of a deal when children are taught this not racist behavior and a grade schooler is essentially called a prostitute.

I've often and only heard it used as a racist mockery as well, directly and indirectly. I can't recall anyone around me or in media ever saying it in a neutral way or in a way that's ignorant of the loaded meaning.

nest0r Wrote:

Smackle Wrote:Growing up a non-Vietnamese Asian in America, let me tell you that this phrase is spoken to East Asians and Southeast Asians in general. People said it from elementary school all the way to high school. I think it's a bit of a deal when children are taught this not racist behavior and a grade schooler is essentially called a prostitute.

I've often and only heard it used as a racist mockery as well, directly and indirectly. I can't recall anyone around me or in media ever saying it in a neutral way or in a way that's ignorant of the loaded meaning.

I mean, people often said this to me while pulling up the corners of their eyes too!

Smackle Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:

Smackle Wrote:Growing up a non-Vietnamese Asian in America, let me tell you that this phrase is spoken to East Asians and Southeast Asians in general. People said it from elementary school all the way to high school. I think it's a bit of a deal when children are taught this not racist behavior and a grade schooler is essentially called a prostitute.

I've often and only heard it used as a racist mockery as well, directly and indirectly. I can't recall anyone around me or in media ever saying it in a neutral way or in a way that's ignorant of the loaded meaning.

I mean, people often said this to me while pulling up the corners of their eyes too!

Racist is just another word for being a dick, sad thing is lots of people are. If said dick wants to have some backup while being a dick he just sticks to stereotypes and targets his behavior against anyone that doesn't share same qualities as him or his peers.

Its a simple mechanism, tribal thing leftover since we were monkeys with slightly bigger brains. Same mechanism works when you're cheering for your country/town/team/buddies, its when you start being a dick about other options that people take notice.

Generally I recommend everyone watching/listening to this:

nest0r Wrote:I'm utterly baffled here. Are you being serious?

Interesting. You actually asked a question instead posting facts figures and stating what is right. Perhaps, if you remember the stance I took in the politically correct topic, you'll be asking a lot more questions. Maybe even the right oneｓ.

Also, I think you're missing one key ingredient. The word "luv."

J7 Wrote:I thought it was out of place to censor that and leave the others as is.

It was more out of place changing the word, thus drawing attention to it.

Wait!? There is actually a such thing as a Nip? Wow, the human imagination has no limit. Well, it can't be any worse than septic, can it?