I am in big support of having both Japanese and English menus. Its good stuff for us more advanced learners as it gives us more review possibilities. Also, it is beneficial for the beginners, as they can use rikaichan and pick up a bunch of new vocab. Well just a thought, it would be a good direction to move in in my opinion. So post your yays or nays here.

You could do that with a Greasemonkey script or Firefox add-on, no? For instance, FoxReplace, that's a handy extension.

No idea why I didn't think of it before, using it to gradually replace items on websites I commonly visit. Damn... *starts translating*

Nestor! you are quite the informed guy. Link it up to fox replace. But I still would support an official transition, I think it better represents what we are all working towards here by having some of that stuff present. In this case some script.

nest0r Wrote:No idea why I didn't think of it before, using it to gradually replace items on websites I commonly visit. Damn... *starts translating*

Good idea, have learners go around imprinting their own translations into their heads. Oh wait, that's a BAD idea.

If you want Japanese sites, go to Japanese sites, where actual Japanese people named things appropriately.

Tobberoth Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:No idea why I didn't think of it before, using it to gradually replace items on websites I commonly visit. Damn... *starts translating*

Good idea, have learners go around imprinting their own translations into their heads. Oh wait, that's a BAD idea.

If you want Japanese sites, go to Japanese sites, where actual Japanese people named things appropriately.

What are you on about? We're talking about the interface, no? Are you seriously trying to say it's difficult to translate individual words? If someone has that sort of problem, I'd think they have bigger problems.

You must have some weird preconception of what I'm talking about. There's so many possibilities inherent in being able to replace the text on a website you visit often, language-wise. Use words you already know, translate individual words progressively, use other sites as guidelines, etc.

I suppose we shouldn't progressively make other aspects of our lives feature Japanese rather than the usual English words. If we want Japanese immersion, we should go to Japan. So long, Japanese grocery list.

What's the point? If you know the proper natural way to translate "Post Reply" in Japanese, do you really need it on every single site you go to?

Yes, it IS hard to translate individual words, if you've ever joined an effort to localize some software into Japanese, you'd know that. What's the proper way to refer to Quit or Exit? Quit as in quit ones job is 辞める. Maybe that works? Maybe it doesn't? Holy crap, unnatural Japanese ohoy.

Immersion is one thing. Going to such lengths to translate parts of a website you already know is just pointless. Translating a site yourself because you want immersion, that's just downright nutty. Get some real immersion instead, it's both better and effortless.

Hell, why not simply buy English books, translate them into Japanese yourself and read those for immersion?

I have to agree with Tobberoth here. Also as most of us know, reading and writing are completely different. I use computers, ps3, set up my router, etc in Japanese without a problem, but if I tried to "fill in the blanks" for the menus I'd be surprised if I got half of them correct.

And it's kind of pointless anyway, as there's a lot of katakana-English on computer related menus.

Oh Grinkers, I'm disappointed in you. Tobbs I'm used to taking the time to write comments that come off as ignorant and arrogant at the same time, perpetually discouraging and tedious. But you? "Fill in the blanks"? "Every single site" (Tobbs)?

The idea isn't mimicking the 'interface design' per se. Finding the Japanese for words like 'submit', 'preview', 'index', etc., isn't difficult, nor is it hard to see their uses on other Japanese sites-as-templates.

When we look for immersion, we often look for ways to make the things we do in English more Japanese, for instance, translating a core grocery list from English to Japanese and using that instead. It doesn't matter if it's how a Japanese person would write their grocery list. The words don't have to be exact translations. It doesn't matter if it's katakana or kanji. Hell, they don't have to fit the context at all. I could toss random vocabulary words and sentences onto this site. It's a matter of filling those core, common spaces of your daily encounters with Japanese, even if it's something easy and simple, though I suggest progressively building it up. This, rather than an all or nothing, either/or mentality ('I must go monolingual! I must only visit Japanese sites or use a Japanese OS!')

In other words, if you're staring at the exact same site every day to the point where you're not even looking at the words, but still using those text areas in meaningful ways--add some Japanese by using FoxReplace or a shared Greasemonkey script! Hell, run a blanket script that changes all menu items of a certain type, who knows. I've already come up with a tonne of ideas related to this now that the idea struck me. SRS workflow, tying it into deconstructing common Japanese sites and integrating with Japanese 'wordsearch' and crossword puzzles. Brilliant (the tools and potential, not me ;p).

Another parallel would be adding Japanese sticky notes to your home. Either labeling objects or even just random simple notes that aren't directly tied to what the note is stuck to.

I guess it really depends on your personal situation too. I live in Japan and use my English to such a small extent that I find it harder and harder to speak in English, so "use more Japanese" hasn't ever crossed my mind. I suppose for somebody in the opposite situation, any Japanese is a plus.

I was mostly thinking it wouldn't be very helpful and/or a lot of work for little gain. However if you use this site to review kanji (especially if it's Japanese keywords), then I can see how changing the text would better set the mood.

By the way "Every single site" wasn't me.

Yes I know, I added Tobbs' name to indicate that. It all blends together in my head.

I don't use this site for review. I'm talking about the forum, actually. I'm looking at 50 words that I interact with daily but never really 'use', that is, I don't need to know them well to navigate the site, and replacing them with Japanese words would be easy and refreshing reinforcement of those words.

Then again, maybe I'd better do it with other common sites I visit, as I wouldn't want to encourage myself to post here.

I might start with the ones that already have Japanese interface equivalents, and slowly integrate the two. Google and Wikipedia for example. In fact, the process itself could be encouraging for exploring Japanese sites. (Ties into stuff about 'meaningfulness' that I'm working on as part of another idea for Japanese-learning, as well as the aforementioned integration into other interface-related notions.)

And I don't consider it any extra work at all, except insofar as how much it takes to use FoxReplace (which isn't hard) or download a shared script of replacements, etc. You're going to be learning the words anyway, or have already learned them, and it's only for core commonly visited areas, with much overlap...

The idea is still dumb, but even if you wanted to put the effort into putting random Japanese in places you use every day, it wouldn't even matter since you don't actively read menu-items etc on sites you use daily. You know the two buttons at the bottom of a forum page here, you know one is a reply and one is quick reply, you don't actually have to read that text every time you want to reply, why would that change just because you change it to Japanese? It's just a button your press in a nano-second, not an essay you have to read through every time.

I use tons of sites in Japanese where the are official translations, youtube, google and facebook for example, and fact is, you only ever read anything the first time you do something. If I want to add a friend, I know where to click, i'm not going to read what the button says every time I click it.

I'm not interested in what you think is 'dumb', because you're so perpetually ignorant and uniformly negative in your comments here, something that I think everyone who has interacted with you understands (goodness knows I've my own personality here ;p), that I simply use you as a kind of leverage point to develop my 'explain the obvious' skills. Kind of like the thought experiment of 'what would you say if a child asked you why the sky was blue?' that is useful for cultivating curiosity.

As for the rest of your comment (note how you went from interpreting my idea as trying to become an interface designer and doing rigid translations that unnaturally imprint Japanese to interpreting my idea as the other extreme, 'putting random Japanese', oh what a brilliant rhetorician you are), I consider that to be the strength, that dishabituation and gradual rehabituation of the quotidian, so thanks for repeating my point for me, and showing how a dull thought process can warp that into your negative way of thinking from your own narrow perspective.

Let's look back on all the ideas you've discouraged, the tools you've dismissed. What would the users of this forum be doing if they took your advice? Maybe it's useful though, if they took *my* advice they'd have went insane long ago.

I think sites like Google and Wikipedia would be good, because you could easily compare the Japanese site and accurately do some quick copy/paste. The potential gain is questionable, especially if you aren't reading the words carefully, but it wouldn't hurt either. The real solution would probably be stop coming to koohii and use that time in a "learn English" Japanese forum.

nest0r Wrote:I'm not interested in what you think is 'dumb', because you're so perpetually ignorant and uniformly negative in your comments here, something that I think everyone who has interacted with you understands (goodness knows I've my own personality here ;p), that I simply use you as a kind of leverage point to develop my 'explain the obvious' skills. Kind of like the thought experiment of 'what would you say if a child asked you why the sky was blue?' that is useful for cultivating curiosity.

As for the rest of your comment (note how you went from interpreting my idea as trying to become an interface designer and doing rigid translations that unnaturally imprint Japanese to interpreting my idea as the other extreme, 'putting random Japanese', oh what a brilliant rhetorician you are), I consider that to be the strength, that dishabituation and gradual rehabituation of the quotidian, so thanks for repeating my point for me, and showing how a dull thought process can warp that into your negative way of thinking from your own narrow perspective.

Let's look back on all the ideas you've discouraged, the tools you've dismissed. What would the users of this forum be doing if they took your advice? Maybe it's useful though, if they took *my* advice they'd have went insane long ago.

Please use more ad hominem and comments which has nothing to do with the argument to save face, while everyone else agrees that your "brilliant idea" is as brilliant as learning English from hip T-shirts made in Japan.

While I use Japanese websites for my immersion, go ahead and waste your time on English sites translated by yourself. I'm sure you, with your adult mind, will make excellent progress.

Grinkers Wrote:I think sites like Google and Wikipedia would be good, because you could easily compare the Japanese site and accurately do some quick copy/paste. The potential gain is questionable, especially if you aren't reading the words carefully. The real solution would probably be stop coming to koohii and use that time in a "learn English" Japanese forum.

That's one of the possibilities I thought was obvious from my very first comment on the topic, re: using other sites as templates. What are you measuring the potential gain against, to consider it questionable? Why wouldn't you read new or partially known Japanese words carefully? I think the real solution is that I should just put ideas out there and stop trying to hold peoples' hands, my frustration has hit an apex. People with the 'learning makes itself invisible' problem such as you who have a hard time with the 'use more Japanese' mindset or Tobbs who can't imagine using the SRS for anything but occasional, minimal SRSing of single words, should in turn try to be more thoughtful in your advice. ;p

nest0r Wrote:Tobbs who can't imagine using the SRS for anything but occasional, minimal SRSing of single words, should in turn try to be more thoughtful in your advice. ;p

You know nothing of my work.

Tobberoth Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:I'm not interested in what you think is 'dumb', because you're so perpetually ignorant and uniformly negative in your comments here, something that I think everyone who has interacted with you understands (goodness knows I've my own personality here ;p), that I simply use you as a kind of leverage point to develop my 'explain the obvious' skills. Kind of like the thought experiment of 'what would you say if a child asked you why the sky was blue?' that is useful for cultivating curiosity.

As for the rest of your comment (note how you went from interpreting my idea as trying to become an interface designer and doing rigid translations that unnaturally imprint Japanese to interpreting my idea as the other extreme, 'putting random Japanese', oh what a brilliant rhetorician you are), I consider that to be the strength, that dishabituation and gradual rehabituation of the quotidian, so thanks for repeating my point for me, and showing how a dull thought process can warp that into your negative way of thinking from your own narrow perspective.

Let's look back on all the ideas you've discouraged, the tools you've dismissed. What would the users of this forum be doing if they took your advice? Maybe it's useful though, if they took *my* advice they'd have went insane long ago.

Please use more ad hominem and comments which has nothing to do with the argument to save face, while everyone else agrees that your "brilliant idea" is as brilliant as learning English from hip T-shirts made in Japan.

While I use Japanese websites for my immersion, go ahead and waste your time on English sites translated by yourself. I'm sure you, with your adult mind, will make excellent progress.

I consider 90% of your comments to be nearly ad hominem in the way you dismiss others. Mostly, to be honest, I'm just sick of your negativity. Have you ever said anything positive or encouraging on this forum? Only when someone 'calls you out' about that such as resolve or Fabrice, you spend 50 comments explaining how you were actually being positive. Why wouldn't I be reading Japanese sites? Back to the all or nothing rhetoric of interpretations?

I see your ego plays a part, hence your use of ideas like 'argue' and 'save face'--here I thought I was an anonymous person who was simply tired of holding your hand whenever you say bafflingly wrongheaded things.

Tobberoth Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:Tobbs who can't imagine using the SRS for anything but occasional, minimal SRSing of single words, should in turn try to be more thoughtful in your advice. ;p

You know nothing of my work.

Informatics or somesuch? I know if it involves teaching, I feel sorry for your students.

At any rate, any bystanders reading this, apologies, I'll let the others have the last words and end my posts here. Sorry that a simple flexible idea required an entire thread spent defending it against extreme interpretations as well, don't let that discourage you from looking into FoxReplace and user-customized scripts.

nest0r Wrote:I consider 90% of your comments to be nearly ad hominem in the way you dismiss others. Mostly, to be honest, I'm just sick of your negativity. Have you ever said anything positive or encouraging on this forum? Only when someone 'calls you out' about that such as resolve or Fabrice, you spend 50 comments explaining how you were actually being positive. Why wouldn't I be reading Japanese sites? Back to the all or nothing rhetoric of interpretations?

I see your ego plays a part, hence your use of ideas like 'argue' and 'save face'--here I thought I was an anonymous person who was simply tired of holding your hand whenever you say bafflingly wrongheaded things.

If you're afraid of people criticizing your ideas, you should probably not parade them around as "brilliant" on a forum where it's common to discuss different approaches. I am generally skeptical to new ideas, yes. There's fortunately nothing wrong with that, and I'm positive quite often. For example, the idea that I use my SRS for nothing but single words (which is downright wrong) that you yourself brought to the surface in this thread, comes from other peoples ideas which I tried and were positive to, and I've been showing support for in threads afterwards.

What I don't support is adding tons of extra effort with little to no gain, which is exactly what I feel you're often recommending people to do. I might not be the best teacher in the world, but at least I can try to avert people from using bad techniques because an eloquent speaker told them it was brilliant. You come up with an idea you think is brilliant. I explain why I feel it's a dumb idea. If you want to come back with comments about me being ignorant or childish or overly negative, fine by me. If someone saw my counter-argument and agreed, I just saved them a lot of trouble.

I added a little "but it wouldn't hurt either" too late. By "questionable", I really meant just balancing "effort vs reward". Also that the effort vs reward is going to be different for different people (based on the English vs Japanese ratio in daily life).

I'm probably pretty closed minded about new ideas, or at least very sceptical. So no argument there! Speaking of arguments, I don't think it's worth it for us to "argue", because actually our difference of opinion on this matter doesn't seem to differ that much. Have fun with Tobberoth!

Grinkers Wrote:I think sites like Google and Wikipedia would be good, because you could easily compare the Japanese site and accurately do some quick copy/paste.

I just have to ask, what would be the gain in this case? Both wikipedia and google have official Japanese interfaces, why would you want to make your own instead of using those?

The search order is different with Japanese and English google, and I don't think you can use different localizations for the same language on wikipedia(?).

I personally like the "leave it be" method for languages. I like watching American movies in English, and Japanese movies in Japanese. Japanese with Japanese people, and English for everybody else. However I'm lucky enough to live in Japan, so I have more than enough exposure to not need to do things like watch American movies in Japanese.

I just noticed this now, but I also seem to separate my hobbies by language too. Mathematics, physics, programming, etc (aka "professional") is in English. Novels, games, social, news, etc ("hobbies") is done in Japanese. There's obviously some mix, but it's over 90% separated.

You think I'm an eloquent speaker? *blush* Brilliant! I mean, uh, cool/exciting...

Grinkers Wrote:The search order is different with Japanese and English google, and I don't think you can use different localizations for the same language on wikipedia(?).

I personally like the "leave it be" method for languages. I like watching American movies in English, and Japanese movies in Japanese. Japanese with Japanese people, and English for everybody else. However I'm lucky enough to live in Japan, so I have more than enough exposure to not need to do things like watch American movies in Japanese.

I just noticed this now, but I also seem to separate my hobbies by language too. Mathematics, physics, programming, etc (aka "professional") is in English. Novels, games, social, news, etc ("hobbies") is done in Japanese. There's obviously some mix, but it's over 90% separated.

You can change the interface to both google and wikipedia without changing the language of the actual content. For wikipedia, just log in on en.wikipedia.org and change the language to japanese and you get a japanese interface on English wikipedia. Nothing to it man.

Edit: It seems that google is being a bitch. You can set the language to Japanese and set English to be prioritized as the results, unfortunately you can't uncheck the language you use for the site, so you will still get a lot of Japanese results you wouldn't get if you had the language set to English. That's a bit of a bummer and pretty dumb since the option is there, it's just grayed out. I guess they are assuming that if you know Japanese well enough to have the interface in Japanese, you want Japanese results as high as English ones.

I personally like having English menus for English, and Japanese menu for Japanese. I honestly don't even notice which language I'm reading anymore, so none of it bothers me.

However it's nice to know in case somebody else has to use my computer.