http://www.countercurrents.org/willers200410.htm

Quote:In 1983, the National Film Board of Canada produced a 57-minute film, "Anybody's Son Will Do". Arguably the best anti-war film ever made, and tailored for public television, it scared the hell out of the U.S. military machine, which has done its best to "disappear" it. For years it has been nearly impossible to find a copy, but some kind soul has posted it on YouTube where it can be seen in six segments.

I am wary of posting this as the site or the videos may have controversial content. If there is any debate that occurs in this thread as a result, I only ask that it be conducted in a civil manner, specifically no flaming. In the event that you find there is bad information or workings of bad logic, please feel free to state it.

Also, this thread may just be largely ignored, so if that is to be the case then I say this:
BILLIE JEAN IS NOT MY LOVER

Short add-on:
"Before You Enlist!" is a quick video on the realities of enlisting.
http://www.bsalert.com/news/2334/Before_...ities.html

Save nukemarine, I don't think most of us here are much of the HURRAH type. I mean personally I have no intention of being part of the corporate government's fist of authority.

I'll watch this when I get home, but I can tell you I am sympathetic to anti-war because I like to think that I am non-violent in every way (maybe not verbally). SO YAY NON-VIOLENCE!

One thing I have to note is that the description is sensationalist and I don't know if there's any proof there was action to suppress the video's distribution. I am replying instead of editing my original post because I like to talk to myself. My alter ego is named Susie Rottencrotch.

What does this have to do with whales?

I love war. All the Gung Ho zombies rush off to save America from what ever evil the propaganda gurus cook up, while I stay home and comfort their lonely, lonely girlfriends.

Just watched it all, very good. Thanks smackle.

Maybe documentaries weren't that popular in the day, but that film just seems like your average bootcamp documentary on Discovery channel. I'm even a bit confused as to how it's an anti-war film, let alone the greatest of all time. What do people think happens in bootcamps? Do they educate their recruits to consider the life of every man they are ordered to kill, and to dwell on how they just took a mans life?

It was interesting though.

Well, there's anti-war, but I've never been able to construct a mental model of how to create a society (or world) without a military (or some sort of armed, trained force)... short of aliens coming down and zapping away the planet's weapons (and uh, willingness to group together and kill/hurt for power ;p). I'm always open to being convinced, however.

Now all we need is Blackwater, though.

I just watched this too and it was very fascinating. But was it anti-war? I didn't really see that as part of the theme; unless of course you consider that they we basically saying that anyone is capable of becoming a mindless killing machine and that the people who "graduated" from bootcamp didn't really accomplish anything special because people all over the world do the exact same thing under different circumstances, then yeah, I can see how it was anti-war in that repect...

but seriously, army people are usually the scum of the earth. I swear like 80% are the worst people I have ever met in my life. Nuke is of course part of that 20% that are "good people"

Quote:I swear like 80% are the worst people I have ever met in my life. Nuke is of course part of that 20% that are "good people"

lol, most of the men in my family, self included, have served in one of the service branches...what ya saying?

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bizarrojosh Wrote:but seriously, army people are usually the scum of the earth. I swear like 80% are the worst people I have ever met in my life. Nuke is of course part of that 20% that are "good people"

I'm guessing most recruits are from uneducated backgrounds (not counting mandatory service, as we had in Belgium until 1994), but for these men, the military service may not be all that bad. It teaches some positive values, which can also be seen in this documentary. Not everything is black and white.

Ultimately we're all responsible for the army and the wars. We're the ones who voted for Bush (even from Europe, we are indirectly responsible through global politics). We're all consciously voting year after year for the same party. We're the ones who point the finger outside, we're the ones who prefer to stick to the mind numbing 9-5 routine, take the sleeping pills, and watch these documentaries, pointing the fingers to the rest of the world, while comfortably eating our bag of chips and kissing our boss's ass. From a larger perspective, we are these guys, they are us. Anything else is delusion.

The army is a group, just like so many others that we identify with. The movie isn't really "anti war", it is just as well "anti nationalism", "anti pack mentality", "anti submission", "anti propaganda", and so on.

So long as you feel pride for being American/<insert whatever country your're from>, there will be an army.

Which always come down to the same thing: work on yourself. The problem seen out there is just intellectual masturbation to make us confident we're alright and the others are wrong. The problem is out there.. so long as it's "out there" there is no real positive change.

What you have to consider is that in America, at least, a lot of people enter the military because they're poor and might not have any other opportunities back home.

This is part two of an eight part miniseries that does hold a bit of anti-war sentiment.

Quote:In the early 1980s, the National Film Board of Canada commissioned journalist Gwynne Dyer to create the miniseries War, echoing concerns expressed by the decade's peace movement about the threat of nuclear war. Dyer had previous military experience, and he filmed the miniseries in ten countries and featured six national armies.[1] He approached the Pentagon for permission to film the United States military, which it granted except for conducting interviews with prominent policymakers. Dyer was able to film Marines in boot camp, the United States Sixth Fleet, and US Air Force bases in Germany. The New York Times wrote, "The Pentagon's hesitancy was understandable, considering that the subtitle of War is: A Commentary by Gwynne Dyer. Mr. Dyer holds strong antiwar opinions, happens to know a great deal about the military, and speaks up on camera and in writing."[2]
The miniseries examined warfare, how it had evolved, and what its consequences were. It also examined the challenge of armies' roles in face of total war.[1] Military leaders involved with NATO and the Warsaw Pact were featured in interviews, many of them speaking to Western media for the first time. Officers from different countries talked about how nuclear technology affected their profession and how a conflict between superpowers would likely lead to all-out nuclear war. Dyer argued that this war could only be avoided by eliminating nuclear arsenals.[3]
The miniseries received "great acclaim" globally but was controversial in Canada. One of the episodes, "The Profession of Arms", was nominated for an Academy Award.[1] The series was broadcast to 45 countries.[3]

Also, just to tack this on, here's a very short video called "Before You Enlist!" It's relevant to what I was saying about the poor somewhat.

http://www.bsalert.com/news/2334/Before_...ities.html

kendo99 Wrote:

Quote:I swear like 80% are the worst people I have ever met in my life. Nuke is of course part of that 20% that are "good people"

lol, most of the men in my family, self included, have served in one of the service branches...what ya saying?

I was in the Army right out of high school but I don't know that I served anyone except myself. I was part of the 80% of the worst people you will ever meet, and so was most everyone in my unit at the Ft Bragg, NC base I was stationed at. There were some who kept straight, but not many that I can remember.

We read an article with this title for sociology class in college, it was fairly good. Reminded me of Full Metal Jacket.

yudantaiteki Wrote:Reminded me of Full Metal Jacket.

^^
yeah me too, the first half of the movie yeah

soo good

Why is my name being bandied about in this thread? On top of that, what is the thread about, that 27 year old video? Pardon me while I not watch something old. The military industrial complex has grown much worse since 1983, so I doubt I'll get much from that.

Still, here's my question for anyone that's against the concept of war entirely (those unable to see the shades of gray): If you are mugged, what's your response? If your answer involves the use of government utilities (police in this case) then you're utilizing on a small scale the concept of the military and war.

As for the other video "Before you enlist", everyone should watch that prior to enlisting. Not saying it's 100% true or that it's not using shoddy documentary tactics. However, I really hate listening to people bitching about how their recruiter lied to them. Personally, I'd rather have people that are in the military that want to be in there. They're less likely to become disillusioned. If that video can get a person to ask the right questions and get the right answers before enlisting then I'm all for it.

PS: As for the 80%, 20% comment, your average military leprechaun is about the same as your average college aged leprechaun. Guys 18 to 25 generally are leprechaun no matter the job they're doing. Group them into the same location, and you amplify the leprechaun factor. They'll watch porn, think about sex, want to get drunk, get in fights with that guy in the corner giving him the stink-eye, party as late as possible, oversleep as much as they can, do the minimum to get the job done, bitch about the boss behind his back, etc., etc..

Anyone who is offended is surely part of the 'okay' 20%. ;p

Also, I am offended by your name, DEICIDE? That is highly inappropriate. Clearly you're Satanic.

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LegionOfDeicide, there is no need to be offended. You're the one who chooses to be offended. If someone posts something ignorant feel free to correct them. The Community forum is for these kind of discussions. So far it has been mostly civilized. bodhisamaya's comment was obviously humorous or teasing, and bizarrojosh threw a fit. I seriously hope you don't get so easily offended in your daily life, that must be rather inconvenient.

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Nukemarine Wrote:Why is my name being bandied about in this thread?

Because you have "marine" in your username. We're hopeless

Nukemarine Wrote:Still, here's my question for anyone that's against the concept of war entirely (those unable to see the shades of gray): If you are mugged, what's your response? If your answer involves the use of government utilities (police in this case) then you're utilizing on a small scale the concept of the military and war.

I don't think there is a need for war, in and of itself. But war has been and may be for some time still, a necessity. It's just a symptom of our growing up as the human race. Like children who go through the teenager phase before becoming adults, on the big picture we went through Hiroshima, the Holocaust and so on, and we have yet some "growing up" to do to reach "adulthood".

There are many proponents today of the idea that war does not work. It's pretty easy to observe if one could allow themselves to be objective, there is no utopia or ideal in that. But again that does not require intellect and studies, it requires wisdom.

That said I think we'll always have some sort of army, even a symbolic one. "War" and the "army" aren't the same thing... it's not the army who wants war...

@Legion: rofl, I kind of guessed that (the origin of your name)

I still haven't figured out the point of this thread though. Is it anti-military? Anti-war? anti-recruiting? Could the OP enlighten a bit more so I can figure out how to sarcastically respond.

Deicide (cool nick by the way), there's no need to be offended on behalf of the military. We took an oath (well, the US military did, gotta remember this is an international forum) to support and defend the US Constitution. Unlike many that I work with, that includes supporting the first amendment of that document (and the very important and overlooked 9th amendment). If people want to label a group of tens of millions with a broad stroke, they are free to do so. We in turn are free to respond. If we in the military get a bit too uppity about it, there's always the 2nd amendment to help keep us in check. Man I love shades of gray.

As always, this is Fabrice's house so what he says will ultimately be what goes.

I found the original article interesting not for any ideological standpoint but just that it dealt with an issue I never really gave much thought to before -- in many societies, the dominate moral philosophy says that killing is wrong, and generally people want the citizens to believe that killing is wrong, but then when you're training soldiers, you need to overcome that moral element to a certain extent. If you send soldiers into a battle, you don't want them wavering because they are morally hesitant about killing the enemy.

The article makes the claim that the primary purpose of basic training is to teach conformity and to overcome that moral block against killing, and that other aspects like weapons and athletic training are secondary. I don't know if this is entirely true, but it's an interesting idea.

What is or is not a harmful career is something that I have thought often about. It is a really difficult thing to judge as most every job has grey areas as far as its affect on humanity. The military? Well at least it's straight forward in the job description. You are getting paid to kill people who's government clashes with your own government's agendas. Other jobs are harmful in indirect ways. Tobacco farming, fast food, diamond brokers, etc..
I worked as a casino dealer for 8 years in Vegas and who knows how many of those playing at my table took their own lives after losing their life savings. I am sure it is a much higher number than I want to think about. I endured all kinds of preaching from friends when I worked on a corn farm run by Norvartis chemicals in Hawaii for 6 months. It is tough to find a career that will support a family and yet doesn't have a negative impact on society.

LegionOfDeicide Wrote:I don't normally get offended. I just find military issues such as this to be a touchy subject. I don't think bodhisamaya's and bizarrojosh comments were necessary. Those two comments in particular are what really offended me.

@Nest0r
"Also, I am offended by your name, DEICIDE? That is highly inappropriate. Clearly you're Satanic."

I think you are joking. But I will inform you about my user name. "Deicide" is a name of a metal band I liked in my rebellious teen years. "Legion" is the name of the second CD that was release by that band. If you are offended though then I apologize?

I don't care, but the point is, running around the Japanese forum with that nickname could be taken as a bold statement* and one with offensive or provocative connotations to those who feel there is a conspicuous cultural discourse about religion, 'God is Dead', 'killing in the name of God', being a missionary vs. seeing organized religion as the opiate of the masses, etc. So it's not like you're against coming onto this forum and positing controversial messages unrelated to Japanese. Just sayin', if you want to condemn a thread in the Community subforum for being offensive and off-topic to Japanese, perhaps you should look at your own diplomacy and appearance first, in this virtual realm.

*Either from a general linguistic standpoint (deity + homicide [or just -cide ;p]) or from this culture-specific one: "Deicide has received considerable controversy relating to their albums and lyrics, which include vehement anti-Christian themes, such as "***** Your God", "Kill the Christian","Behead The Prophet" and "Scars of the Crucifix", among others. Drummer Asheim of Deicide said "The whole point of Satanic music is to blaspheme against the Church", "I don't believe in or worship a devil. Life is short enough without having to waste it doing this whole organised praying, hoping, wishing-type thing on some superior being".[11]"

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Nukemarine Wrote:As always, this is Fabrice's house so what he says will ultimately be what goes.

Well I don't mind this is the Community forum. The thread seems to be vaguely about war, and the army.. ymmv