In my kitchen, I like adaptable tools that can be used to do many things, rather than a ton of unitasking appliances and tools that each do one thing. On my computer I like single adaptable tools that handle all my needs within a given domain. Anki, for instance, is my SRS of choice BECAUSE I can adapt it to multiple learning needs and its very easy to reconfigure, etc. GiMP is my image editor because it does everything I need a graphics program to do. OpenOffice my office suite for similar reasons...Sure, I could find a document editor, a spreadsheet editor, etc all seperate. Probably, I could find a better document editor than openoffices, better spreadsheet editor, etc. But, I like having it all in one place, it's easy to find exactly the tool I need and easy to access when *I* need to multi-task.
Sure, you could find *better* ways to handle each aspect of learning, using space repitition solely as a means of keeping something in memory, but that seems like a lot of wasted effort and planning when you can get the SRS to do all those aspects through a little tweaking to the way you use it.

Raschaverak Wrote:I just remembered that someone a while ago mentioned that Anki is actually only good
to engrave into your brain what you've alerady LEARNED. My question is, is it posibble to learn with anki as well? I mean, that if I just enter some facts / data which I've never heard before on a few cards, and then start reviewing and sooner or later it will sitck (given that I understand those facts), or do I have to learn them from a textbook (for instance), the normal way, and then If I don't want to forget them for the sake of my long term memory I enter them into Anki and keep reviewing till the end

I quoted the first post to point out that I didn't read a single other post in this thread besides this one. I did, however, search for the name of the program I'm about to recommend and it wasn't mentioned.

The program is called "Genius." It is, unfortunately for the PC users, Mac only. Here's a link: http://mac.softpedia.com/get/Educational/Genius.shtml (I can not guarantee this is the most up to date version)

This program is wonderful. Here's what I do:

1) Read/listen/do whatever I do in Japanese.
2) Compile a list of about 25-40 terms
3) Throw said list into Genius.
4) Arrange it so that the "Question" field = kanji and "Answer" = reading + simple english meaning
5) Proceed to study said deck over 1 or two days until the "Score" of all of them is anywhere from 8-10+
6) Throw all these (minus a few if I decide I don't like them that much) into Anki
7) Add some relevant data (such as an extra word + particle to help me get familiar with the proper usage)
8) Review anki as normal + rinse and repeat.

It's been working REALLY well so far.

P.S. - Yes, I type in every answer using Genius

kendo99 Wrote:This is why unix will never be popular with the general public...unitaskers suck, ask any cook.

Good thing we are discussing software, not kitchen appliances. And even so, I find most chefs do have really expensive good unitools rather than multitools. Instead of a knife which can cut anything, they use different knifes made for certain purposes.

@Ryuujin27 I just tried Genius, it's VERY good. I just had a stab at the World Capitals sample deck and the repetition algorithm on the Learn setting is perfect. I can see that in combination with Anki this will be really powerful, thanks for sharing the method.

@Tobberoth OK so I now understand why you were so adamant to distinguish between SRS software and other learning/understanding methods - it IS a bad idea to mix these things up (conceptually) for people who aren't familiar with them. I think everyone's on the same page when it comes to whether you can employ other learning techniques alongside SRS and have them work together, it's just that you want to make sure they aren't confused as being SRS when used together.

I actually agree about the unix philosophy being efficient, but I think Anki is unix exemplified. It actually only does one thing (SRS), and it does it in a flexible way. This is exactly what all unix tools do - think of grep: such a simple concept, but actually it's extremely powerful due to its flexibility (e.g. working with RegExp). Anki might appear to be a multitasking tool, but really it is a scriptable unitasker. All good unix tools are scriptable unitaskers - they can all take a range of commands at the shell and these commands can be automated by a script (like Anki plugins interface with the Anki API).

@Ryuujin27 - Interesting. I read the description of Genius, but I wasn't quite clear on how it's different to Anki. What are the advantages of using that and then Anki - why not use Anki from the start?

The reason I ask is I used to do a rather similar time-intensive method of getting shared stories on RevTK, and reviewing (i.e. 'learning') on RevTK, and then properly reviewing them on Anki. It took twice as long, which was a little frustrating, but the process somehow cemented the kanji in my head better.

I stopped that and just focused on using Anki, while still using the shared stories on this site. Now it takes way less time, but it's harder to remember in the initial stages. Not sure if there's a difference in my memory retention over time though. I'm still looking for ways to improve the process.

By the way, good chefs should be able to do a variety of things with just one large knife:

Sure, there are tools designed for one precise task, which you might like to have if you're a skilled professional and need to do it repeatedly and quickly, but you don't need it. Most of the fancypants tools sold in cookware stores are completely useless. In terms of good quality homemade cookery/language learning, you don't really need a special tool for every task. One good sharp knife will do the trick every time. (Ah the times I've learned languages with a sharp knife... good times, good times).

So to summarize the thread, yes, Anki can be used as a tool for learning, it's just not customary, or may even be ineffective, therefore it's best to pair it with a program called Genius. Got it. Thanks for the replies!

I'd love to write up a quick thing on the advantages of Genius before Anki, Nemotoad, thanks for the invitation ;-)

It's really simple, actually. Anki is great, don't get me wrong. I love that program to death. However, the Leitner algorithm, while effective, definitely does nothing for short term memory, nor does it allow you to use or effectively remember something you put in anki until you've been reviewing it for a while.

This is what Genius does. One of the most frustrating things for me was to be having a conversation in Japanese and then bam, I realized I either recently put a word that was just said into anki, or I remember a word I put into anki that meant something I really wanted to say at that point. But, I could never remember it. It'd always be stuck right there on the tip of my tongue. That was because it was only about a week into the anki process.

Genius will eliminate that "wait period," so to speak. After reviewing it to the point where the score is 8-10+ for all the words, they will be stuck in your short term memory, no problem. Now, of course, if you just left it here they would eventually fade, probably in about a week or two (or a month if you ran into them a few times during normal Japanese activity). But, if you put those things into Anki, by the time they are ready to fade off, Anki will have placed those into your long term memory, and then they are with you forever!

All I can say is, I'm really glad I decided to clean out my applications folder about 2 months ago, otherwise I would have completely forgotten about Genius and how awesome it was for helping me pass quizzes and the like.

Ryuujin is there a PC analog that you know of? Is genius just a basic flashcard program or does it use some sort of algorithm of its own? How different is it from cram mode on Anki?

I don't think what you're calling 'short term memory' exists. There are various arguments about 'real' STM and its relation to LTM, but regardless, STM is considered to only last seconds, extended briefly through articulatory rehearsal and the like... anyway, no need to construct a different concept of STM to justify microspacing or cramming or whatnot in a separate program. If you encode the information well then sticking with the SRS algorithm works just fine, especially if you're getting reinforcement from elsewhere. If you're in a ticking time bomb situation with a mass of new information, then sure, I can see using cramming mode in Anki or something...

At any rate, working memory and short-term memory is closely interrelated, best to focus on metacognitive processing strategies and robust encoding rather than use a separate cramming program for everything, IMO. Many peoples' individual claims about just being naturally inclined i.e anecdotally saying 'that way didn't work for me so microspacing before Anki is best for me!' I think appeals to intuition but could easily be addressed by simpler strategies...

LTM and STM and implicit/explicit memory, etc., are continually being discovered as being more connected than previously thought, per various studies/articles I've posted before... I think of it as 'unitary', but within a modular system, so it goes back to the idea of a kind of integrated, distributed continuum... example, a paper on debating models and neuroscientific support behind them: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mooreks/CDPS.pdf ... or: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200...173724.htm or the idea of virtual/working STM/LTM, as previously linked and discussed...

Also, Anki in the kitchen/software case, bizarre as that tangent is, is more like the kitchen. It's the hub but more of a HUD because it's not a geographical location. ;p

kendo99 Wrote:Ryuujin is there a PC analog that you know of? Is genius just a basic flashcard program or does it use some sort of algorithm of its own? How different is it from cram mode on Anki?

Unfortunately, there isn't. Or at least, not one that I've seen. I've never looked into it, but is there an application for Windows like there is for Mac that lets you use Mac programs on a window's machine? That'd be interesting.

@nest0r

Yeah, I know the terms I'm using aren't the appropriate terms, and my explanation may not match correct with scientific research, but then again I don't really know anything about this stuff, nor do I care much how it works. While slightly interesting, I'm far more interested in the results. My previous explanation was from personal experience. I noticed I needed something more than Anki to "cement" it in my brain first, and Genius filled that void perfectly.

Right, I know it works, I'm just sayin', I think there's simpler ways to fill that void (at this point I personally think it better to just focus on good encoding at the onset, then review once or twice or so, either directly or supplemented with planned redundancy, within 24hrs).

In the future I might change my tune, I kind of like the idea of gradually increasing intervals within a day leading into a day and so on, perhaps combining everything, so. ;p

Ryuujin27 Wrote:Genius will eliminate that "wait period," so to speak. After reviewing it to the point where the score is 8-10+ for all the words, they will be stuck in your short term memory, no problem...

How is Genius better than Anki's cram mode?

Quote:bizarre as that tangent is

lol, I didn't think that it was thaaaat bizarre. I was a little drowsy, but it was a pretty good analogy if you ask me.

gfb345 Wrote:

Ryuujin27 Wrote:Genius will eliminate that "wait period," so to speak. After reviewing it to the point where the score is 8-10+ for all the words, they will be stuck in your short term memory, no problem...

How is Genius better than Anki's cram mode?

This kind of also is a response to net0r's last post, but I would say it's better for a number of reasons. While I haven't extensively tested Anki's cram mode, I just don't want to take the time to change the cards, if you even have to, I'm not really sure.

But, my general opinion is that Genius is just a little nicer in this regard. It will make the screen of your mac around the studying window dark, and it will test you on a random number of facts, multiple times in one sitting.

For example, say you have 20 cards made up. You click on study, and the program will launch into it's testing mode. Then on my screen there will be a box with some kanji in it. I'll read it, then proceed to type the hiragana reading, hit space, switch to english and type the quick english definition. If I was right, it'll go onto the next one. Of course, if it's the first time you see the card, it will pop up with all the info, kind of like a study moment.

Then, after this, it will test you on maybe... 6-8 of those cards. Throwing the same card at you multiple times at random intervals. Then it will close on it's own. After that, I usually wait a bit and then go and do another round.

Essentially, my answer is I like it more. If you don't, go with the cram mode. I just happen to believe that Genius suites me better than the cram mode does.

kendo99 Wrote:

Quote:bizarre as that tangent is

lol, I didn't think that it was thaaaat bizarre. I was a little drowsy, but it was a pretty good analogy if you ask me.

It's more like, I thought Tobbs' analogy was so lame, re: Unix, that whole tangent was just weird to me. ;p

'Cram' was written to give people a chance to do a brute-force review of material before a test, regardless of when their next scheduled review was. It sounds like what you are after is a mode which lets you be repeatedly tested on the material to "drill it in".

Personally, I remain skeptical that the extra time and effort to drill it in at the start is worth it, as even without that step you'll eventually pick it up. But a lot of people seem to want such a thing. Did you check out the 'learn mode' plugin? I believe it does something similar.

Also...it was mentioned by someone (ryuujin?) that they felt iffy on their grasp on new cards until they were spaced to about a week? So after a week they are fine, right? Why bother with the pre-learning then? Just give it time in the SRS and it will get sorted, yes? Pimsleur, which used spaced repetition before spaced repetition was cool, was able to both teach and aid memorization through using the same technique, and I always felt shaky on vocabulary I'd learned in the lesson I'd just done, but when it came up again in a lesson or two, it was always well cemented. I think this is an issue of trusting the process. It probably doesn't feel like things are sinking in while you are in the process of LEARNING them, but after they are learned, they will stick. And this is probably why people make claims like: "You can't learn from using an SRS." Yes, you can. If you put the cards in, with well encoded information, and use it daily, you will learn/memorize the cards. Probably more efficiently than any other method. You just have to accept that for a while, it will feel like you are only partially remembering things.

Any card that you truly do need to "cram" in order to get will be crammed through failing and repeating. The cool thing is, there are usually far less of these than we think.

resolve Wrote:'Cram' was written to give people a chance to do a brute-force review of material before a test, regardless of when their next scheduled review was. It sounds like what you are after is a mode which lets you be repeatedly tested on the material to "drill it in".

Personally, I remain skeptical that the extra time and effort to drill it in at the start is worth it, as even without that step you'll eventually pick it up. But a lot of people seem to want such a thing. Did you check out the 'learn mode' plugin? I believe it does something similar.

Hey resolve, good to see you here!

Yeah, there was once when I used Cram on my korean deck to drill it home before my final exam, and it worked wonderfully I must say. But I just don't know about using it on my Japanese deck and then switching back to the normal SRS functionality. I can't explain this hesitation, however.

Honestly, I always believed in the SRS before this. I was totally up for the idea that you will eventually pick it up. However, I guess I just got impatient for that to happen, and I noticed that a lot of the time I would find myself remembering it was in my SRS, but I just couldn't recall exactly what it was at that moment. Drilling it before adding it into Anki, at least for me, completely makes this problem non-existent. Now, Anki has become a tool for me to remember what I've already drilled in, as well as slowly accustom my brain to context.

For example, for 2 days using Genius I drilled the word 委ねる (among others). I found this word has multiple meanings, but I went with "entrust" for my english. However, I didn't know how to use this word. So when I entered it into anki, I went with the sentences:

仕事を彼女に委ねる。

仕事に身を委ねる。(a separate card)

This helped me remember that 委ねる can be either to entrust or devote, and the sentences helped me remember the particle usage with each.

@kendo99:

I totally agree here. However, I found that even after a month of SRS I was still shaky. Also, I never meant to say that I don't believe you can learn from a SRS, just call me impatient. I want to be able to fully get that word immediately. I want to be able to spit it out tomorrow in a conversation. For me, I feel this is necessary for me to feel as though I am making progress, and when I see that progress it propels me to do more, and thus become more productive.

@Ryuujin27 @kendo99 as I mentioned in my first reply, the Learn Mode plugin for Anki is really quite similar to genius, except that it gives you the option to rate cards 1-4 instead of yes or no. That's available for Windows, of course.