I have a problem. I can't seem to push myself through the intermediate phase of Japanese. Though "intermediate" is about as easy to classify as "fluent." I'm planning on taking the JLPT2 this winter, and I'm worried I'm not going to be able to get the grammar down. Grammar is definitely my weakest point, and I'm not sure how to improve it. I get to those little fill in the blank sections and don't do well at all.

Last year at some point Jarvik recommended this book: (日本語総まとめ問題集 [2級文法編]) http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%...609&sr=1-4 which I really like and made it through week 5 before leaving it behind and moving to Melbourne. Even after those 5 weeks (out of 8) I still feel pretty lost when it comes to choosing the right grammar to go in blanks. After studying the grammar points for the week, I would take the tests the next day and not do well.

I'm pretty happy with my speaking ability, though it's getting worse since I left Japan in December, and my listening is doing ok- when I hear most of these things I know what they mean. But pick one of four grammar choices, and I'm lost...

It's the thorn in my side- I'm not as much worried about kanji readings, vocab or listening, as I am choosing grammar.

I'm going through the KO deck right now and I haven't run into any grammar that I don't know, so I don't think that is going to help. I've been through A Dictionary of Basic Grammar and feel pretty comfortable with it's contents. I have the Intermediate version as well- maybe I should go through it more thoroughly. I thought that exposure would be enough to learn grammar, but there is a lot of grammar in 2級 that you don't hear often and tend to show up only in written material, so dramas and games aren't going to cut it.

Any suggestions?

Yeh, download that huge deck of all the Japanese dictionaries and start working through it. The basic one is great but keep going! It's been a big help for me. for kanji I'd recommend to study whatever word you want to know with as much example sentences as u can find. It's the only way to get the true feel for the words.

Hashiriya Wrote:Yeh, download that huge deck of all the Japanese dictionaries and start working through it. The basic one is great but keep going! It's been a big help for me. for kanji I'd recommend to study whatever word you want to know with as much example sentences as u can find. It's the only way to get the true feel for the words.

deck of all japanese dictionaries? where is that? anki? or torrent...

It's in anki in the shared decks section 8000+ sentences.. It contains some errors but they are relatively easy to figure out

Hashiriya Wrote:It's in anki in the shared decks section 8000+ sentences.. It contains some errors but they are relatively easy to figure out

thanks. oh that one. I remember now.

I don't think it is really considered intermediate level until after we have passed JLPT 2 though. Since JLPT only covers 1000 kanji...

Yonosa Wrote:I don't think it is really considered intermediate level until after we have passed JLPT 2 though. Since JLPT only covers 1000 kanji...

<sarcasm>Thanks for the helpful comment.</sarcasm>

I already said I'm not worried about the reading and kanji sections- that would imply I'm ok with the 1000 kanji. It's like you ignored the whole point of the thread and tried to find something worthless to nitpick.

Hashiriya Wrote:Yeh, download that huge deck of all the Japanese dictionaries and start working through it.

I'm hesitant to start another deck right now- I want to finish up the KO deck in the next 3 months and then start adding custom material to that deck.

captal Wrote:

Yonosa Wrote:I don't think it is really considered intermediate level until after we have passed JLPT 2 though. Since JLPT only covers 1000 kanji...

<sarcasm>Thanks for the helpful comment.</sarcasm>

I already said I'm not worried about the reading and kanji sections- that would imply I'm ok with the 1000 kanji. It's like you ignored the whole point of the thread and tried to find something worthless to nitpick.

I simply responded to the only part of your post that I read...

Yonosa Wrote:I don't think it is really considered intermediate level until after we have passed JLPT 2 though. Since JLPT only covers 1000 kanji...

I dunno, my personal definition of "intermediate" starts where "beginner" stops, at "knows everything in Minna No Nihongo 1&2"; that's enough grammar that you can express yourself more or less if you have the vocab for a particular topic. "Intermediate" then goes from there up through JLPT2 and probably a bit beyond, and after that you get "advanced".

(This whole site demonstrates that number of kanji is a poor metric on its own for progress since it's perfectly possible to be a long way ahead or behind on that point compared to all the other skills.)

To the OP:

captal Wrote:After studying the grammar points for the week, I would take the tests the next day and not do well.

So the question is, why were you picking wrong answers? Were there options which you just didn't know the meaning of? Were you forgetting particle usage? Did you know the grammar but get confused by not knowing a vocab word the example sentence happened to use? Or something else? Do you have trouble with grammar points when they're used in reading questions, or only in the grammar section? If you can figure out what's not working you can try to tweak what you're doing to fix it.

The grammar multiple choices often give you several things of vaguely similar meaning but where some don't fit (eg wrong particle, accompanying verb is wrong tense, accompanying verb can't be volitional). So I'm guessing that you maybe have a lot of "recognition" knowledge of these grammar points but not necessarily the "production" side that the questions are trying to test. You might try putting the quiz questions into an SRS, with the answer side being the right answer plus *why* it's the right answer, as a way of trying to learn the points a bit better. (Disclaimer: I haven't tried this myself.)

pm215 Wrote:The grammar multiple choices often give you several things of vaguely similar meaning but where some don't fit (eg wrong particle, accompanying verb is wrong tense, accompanying verb can't be volitional). So I'm guessing that you maybe have a lot of "recognition" knowledge of these grammar points but not necessarily the "production" side that the questions are trying to test.

Exactly what you've said here.

With 3級 it was usually a lot more obvious- most of the options didn't fit- and there might be two that are similar but pretty easy to tell them apart. With 2級 I look at the options and usually think most of them could fit but it's just like you said- a wrong particle, tense, etc is what throws me off and I can't remember what goes with what.

I've been hoping that this would be something I'd pick up passively, but clearly it's not working for me. I think the important thing you said was "why" it's the right answer. If I can understand the why, the filling in the blank part gets easier. That seems to be my problem- I don't know the way- meaning I can read it but I can't produce it.

That's kind of why I called it pushing through the intermediate- my speaking is at a level where I have nearly all the grammar I need to say what I want, and I understand most grammar that is said, but I don't use some of it (or it only shows up in writing). If I can get to the point where I know how to use those grammar points, even if I don't use them, then I should be able to fill in those blanks. Figuring out how to do that is what's stumping me, maybe I'll try your suggestion once I finish KO.

Yonosa Wrote:I don't think it is really considered intermediate level until after we have passed JLPT 2 though. Since JLPT only covers 1000 kanji...

That's half of the ones you're expected to know as an advanced learner, so yeah, that would definitely count as intermediate. Remember, you're supposed to know those 1000 very well. Readings, common words for all of them, how to write them. Just because using RtK lets you recognize and write 2000 kanji in no-time doesn't mean it isn't considered intermediate by pretty much all standards. Hell, look at an American college. Do they even learn 500 kanji in 2 years?

Regardless, the JLPT2 is about a lot more than kanji. Even if it was just 100 kanji on that test, it would still be considered intermediate because of the other parts, especially grammar and reading comprehension.

captal Wrote:

pm215 Wrote:The grammar multiple choices often give you several things of vaguely similar meaning but where some don't fit (eg wrong particle, accompanying verb is wrong tense, accompanying verb can't be volitional). So I'm guessing that you maybe have a lot of "recognition" knowledge of these grammar points but not necessarily the "production" side that the questions are trying to test.

Exactly what you've said here.

With 3級 it was usually a lot more obvious- most of the options didn't fit- and there might be two that are similar but pretty easy to tell them apart. With 2級 I look at the options and usually think most of them could fit but it's just like you said- a wrong particle, tense, etc is what throws me off and I can't remember what goes with what.

I've been hoping that this would be something I'd pick up passively, but clearly it's not working for me. I think the important thing you said was "why" it's the right answer. If I can understand the why, the filling in the blank part gets easier. That seems to be my problem- I don't know the way- meaning I can read it but I can't produce it.

That's kind of why I called it pushing through the intermediate- my speaking is at a level where I have nearly all the grammar I need to say what I want, and I understand most grammar that is said, but I don't use some of it (or it only shows up in writing). If I can get to the point where I know how to use those grammar points, even if I don't use them, then I should be able to fill in those blanks. Figuring out how to do that is what's stumping me, maybe I'll try your suggestion once I finish KO.

Get Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar. That book (and the others in the series) covers grammar to an insane degree. If there's ever two grammar points you know but can't differentiate, this is the book to use. It will almost always have a whole note section about what makes the two grammar structures different and in which situations you should use which.

Tobberoth Wrote:Get Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar.....It will almost always have a whole note section about what makes the two grammar structures different and in which situations you should use which.

I agree with this. To me, the real value of the book is how it differentiates the grammar points from each other. A good example being 〜たら、〜ば、〜と、and 〜なら. It had always been one of those things you learn means "if" or "when" but I could never quite figure out the differences just by exposure.

I have it- it's a great book so I'll just have to spend some more time with it.

I downloaded the aforementioned deck and noticed that it's tagged by level, so I can just turn on the sentences for the intermediate book.