So, I'm taking a two week break after RTK to catch up on real life, and after that I'm planning on starting some hardcore study. But my question is, would doing Minna no Nihongo before Core/KO/sentences be all that beneficial?

I'm essentially starting at square one. As far as I can see, both books can be done in two months at a lesson a day, so it's not like it's a huge time sink. But, would that time be better spent doing something else? I want something to get me on my feet smoothly, and from what I've read it seems like going from Tae Kim straight to Core/KO isn't the smoothest of paths.

The only book I'd recommend before Core/KO2001/etc. would be Japanese the Manga Way (and Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar). I had zero problems with said sentences after finishing JMW.

Core and KO are very lacking in the grammar department and using a textbook to touch up on the concepts will really help your Japanese move along. It's a good idea.

My favorite texts were the genki series.

Womacks23 Wrote:Core and KO are very lacking in the grammar department and using a textbook to touch up on the concepts will really help your Japanese move along. It's a good idea.

My favorite texts were the genki series.

This is so, so true. Jumping into native media after KO/smart.fm I felt OK on kanji readings and basic vocab, but grammar was very stressful.

I second Japanese the Manga Way. Grammatical concepts are explained easily, and there are lots of great sentences in the book for mining, that come directly from real source media.

Afterwards, perhaps while working through core2k, I also really reccomend:
Basic Connections: Making Your Japanese Flow. It makes certain concepts that are often overlooked or badly explained easy to understand through intuitive explanations and good examples.

I used みんなの日本語 and liked it. Mainly because it gave me a good order to learn the grammar in. And unlike just reading Tae Kim once I had finished the grammar points I pretty much knew it, and could produce it. Also the listening exercise are pretty good and near enough natural speed. Another positive are the review tests, it's easy to pick out your weak grammar areas from how you do in them.

These are just general merits not related to revtk or the KO thing as I've done neither.

caivano Wrote:I used みんなの日本語 and liked it...

I too did volume I and enjoyed it a lot. It really helped my grammar, but I didn't dwell on each section - just studied example sentences, dialog and the did the questions (that had answers in the answer book). I added any sentences i had issues with to anki.

I've never used a beginner level textbook, but I think that they are great as long as you are at the appropriate level for them, don't take too long with it, and have realistic expectations.

I think they are a much better way of starting from scratch than a shaky internet grammar (tae kim) and a pile of sentences (iknow). Of course you can use those at the same time as a textbook though.


(I used a crappy reader and class notes when I took basic Japanese in university)

how come tae kim is "shaky". from what I've heard of it, it explains things from the ground up, something not done in a lot of textbooks.

Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar is a good book to start with IMO.

I love textbooks. I use Minna no nihongo in college and Genki at home. Even though I have no time whatsoever to study them for real. I study much more from textbooks rathen than from sentences (because I have no time whatsoever during the week [tests everyday])

I think Genki is better, it has better exercises ang the grammar explaniations are better too.

Before RTK I would always forget the kanji, after I finished RTK in 3 months (+-) kanji stick. I never thought I'd be able to say this one year ago.

I've used 'Japanese for Busy People' and a little of 'Minna no nihongo' when I took formal lessons. Honestly I now feel both were a waste of time, as they don't teach you casual grammar, and basically don't tell you about the regular (i.e. non ます) forms of verbs. This is stupid, as about 95% of Japanese media consists of casual speech..

I know it's mentioned alot on here, but reading Tae Kim grammar guide everything finally clicked into place. I really recommend it, it's really well structured and ordered, and the example sentences build perfectly on what you have learnt before - it's perfect for SRSing (there's even a pre-made deck downloadable via anki). I've also got Japanese: The Manga Way, and it covers similar grounds, but the ordering is weird so it's hard to work through cover to cover..

If you really want to go the textbook route, use Genki as it touches on a lot of casual grammar even by the end of the first book. No idea if it would be good for self-study though..

Another vote for GENKI I and II (Japanese for Everyone is also a good textbook, Japanese for Busy People sucks). Don't understand the textbook hate myself, I think they're essential.

As an alternative to Genki I + II I recommend "Elementary Japanese I + II" by Yoko Hasegawa. It covers the same content as Genki but personally I think it is superior in other aspects.

This is kind of going in a circle, but I have Japanese the Manga Way. Should you ever be faced with the choice- Japanese the Manga Way doesn't come with a workbook, which sucks. The competing product that does have a workbook is Japanese in Mangaland. However, Mangaland doesn't actually use real manga. In fact, the art it uses isn't really even at all close to real manga. (Example: The crude, very light sketching was partially to save money on printing, while Mangaland ofter uses very dark lines and wastes tons of black ink on big expanses of sky and so forth). Mangaland is also more oriented to helping you read manga- onomatopoeia (zzzz, vroom) is introduced early on. Japanese the Manga Way is geared more toward fundamentals and general reading, so you get more general concepts early on.

So you'll have to come up with your own drills for Japanese the Manga Way, but you get a much more solid language book that uses real manga panels. If you enjoy a panel and want to read more, there are notes in the back to help you find what manga it was picked from.

So for a basic grammar book, Japanese the Manga way. If you need workbooks / traditional learning, I've seen good things from Genki. Tae Kim's online guide is free and awesome, so do give it a try.

aphasiac Wrote:I've used 'Japanese for Busy People' and a little of 'Minna no nihongo' when I took formal lessons. Honestly I now feel both were a waste of time, as they don't teach you casual grammar, and basically don't tell you about the regular (i.e. non ます) forms of verbs. This is stupid, as about 95% of Japanese media consists of casual speech...

I don't know about Japanese for Busy People (I hear it's horrible) but Minna no Nihongo covers both teineigo, casual and keigo. It STARTS with teineigo, but this is common in most textbooks and makes sense since it allows people who are just beginning to start saying things in Japanese to people without coming off as rude. teineigo is the safest bet in any situation, that's why they teach it first.

It's also a good idea to start with teineigo since casual is so common and it's what you will use the most of you actually communicate with Japanese people on a regular basis. This means that you will eventually have a really hard time speaking politely since you're so used to casual form and it's what comes to mind first.

Tobberoth Wrote:It's also a good idea to start with teineigo since casual is so common and it's what you will use the most of you actually communicate with Japanese people on a regular basis.

For friends that's true, but if you're working at a job in Japan you generally use desu/masu with all your coworkers and bosses, and of course anyone you don't know. It really depends on your situation, I think.

(Although Japanese people tend to be much quicker to switch to casual/non-polite language with foreigners, I think that's partly because it's viewed as easier than teineigo but also because foreigners don't really fit well into the Japanese social order that determines what kind of language should be used.)

Quote:As an alternative to Genki I + II I recommend "Elementary Japanese I + II" by Yoko Hasegawa.

Glad to see someone else mention this. It's a nice text, no doubt designed for college intro courses. Like Genki, lots of the dialogues center around students at university, so it might be of more interest to young people than to older farts like me. But even I find it very useful. I've worked through all of Genki I and most of Hasegawa I, and I don't regret either purchase. I'm inclined to go with Genki II next, if only because I've found more supporting material on the net and on the iPhone, but who knows, I might end up with Hasegawa II as well.

Is Minna no Nihongo accessible for a self-studier like me? I've heard it's all in Japanese, which would be a tough way for me to study grammar, I would think. I've been at this for about six months, and I have a long way to go.

I have Kanji in Context here, but I'm not sure how or when to use it. I'm up to about 1400 in RTK; once I finish RTK, I'll be unsure what to do next. But when in doubt, the textbooks strike me as very useful indeed.

Going for a textbook is definitely good. Just don't let it ruin your real Japanese study. XD

Groot there are a ton of directions to go once you finish RTK. It kind of depends on your learning style, goals, and personal inclinations. there's core2k/6k, ko2001, kanji in context, sentence mining, textbooks, nukemarine's very thorough guide, tae kim, or any other number of methods/texts/courses/etc. I think it will just take some research into each of these to decide where you want to go with it. You mentioned the iphone and of course smart.fm has an iphone ap, so doing core2k/6k would be easy, but I believe you can run anki on the iphone too, so really you could do anything...

Groot Wrote:Is Minna no Nihongo accessible for a self-studier like me? I've heard it's all in Japanese, which would be a tough way for me to study grammar, I would think.

The main textbook (no explanations, really just examples, drills and the 'mechanics' of grammar like conjugation tables) is in Japanese, but the supplementary "translations and grammar explanations" volume is in English (and probably other languages).

Thanks for the replies, mentat_kgs, kendo99 and pm215. Much as I'm enjoying RTK, I am looking forward to getting on to the next step. As you say, lots of choices to research.

yudantaiteki Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:It's also a good idea to start with teineigo since casual is so common and it's what you will use the most of you actually communicate with Japanese people on a regular basis.

For friends that's true, but if you're working at a job in Japan you generally use desu/masu with all your coworkers and bosses, and of course anyone you don't know. It really depends on your situation, I think.

(Although Japanese people tend to be much quicker to switch to casual/non-polite language with foreigners, I think that's partly because it's viewed as easier than teineigo but also because foreigners don't really fit well into the Japanese social order that determines what kind of language should be used.)

Be that as it may, one would generally have to get to a pretty high degree to start using Japanese in a workplace on such a regular basis, and at that point, it's probably not going to matter much.

I don't know about that; pretty much any job you work, even English teacher, you'll be expected to talk to your coworkers with desu/masu forms. Of course as a foreigner you can get away with not doing that, but that's usually not the optimum choice.

I feel that starting with Genki 1 (and with a class) was a good overview of the language. You get a lot of basics and general knowledge to sort of understand what Japanese is all about. Having a teacher and friends in class really gives you social support.

I would rather start RTK/KO2001 after a brief textbook review instead of before. Having a general picture of the language makes it much less intimidating and more natural... you get to see the entire computer working instead of looking at each part one by one.