ta12121 Wrote:@errtu
going rtk 3 is optional but I recommend you doing it. It will give you more meanings to know. But the key is getting use the language first. First getting used to the sounds and once that's done. Next is sentences,words,etc.

As for AJATT 10,000 sentences. I have gotten to 10 500+ sentences in 8.1 months and I must say my reading/understanding skills are becoming close to fluent. But I don't plan on stopping with 10,000 sentences. I'll basically keep going until I've completely gotten fluent. Input helps with the speaking process as it helps you adapt to japanese, you'll eventually not need a translation or anything to understand japanese.

Basically in my opinion I've worked on input/reading a lot. So that's why I'm almost fluent in those skills. As for speaking/writing I'm working on those skills.
(Have 5 decks currently, 1 vocab, 1 sentence deck, 1 kanji deck, 1 production deck and another kanji deck(will merge them together or delete,etc)

thankxs man, when i said rtk i meant volumes 1 and 2. that's certainly a given.

i think that if you understand that much you certainly are close to speaking. what do u mean im going to work on writing / speaking? i mean speaking will come to ya naturally like khatz says.

i agree, initially tis 10 000 sentences but i can't stop till i speak. that's the goal anyways. and yeah i appreciate your comment cause i think i will go input and more input.

im still not convinced about that production deck. is there a thread where they elaborate on it? neither the vocab cause im supposed to get all the vocab i need from the sentences. why did you use a vocab deck? managing all the reviews in so many decks must be tiring. and i dont see the point of a vocab deck.

Well speaking I mean like practising with native speakers. The good thing is that I can understand what's being spoken to me. So that leaves practicing replying back,etc that's what i mean. I've become adapted to japanese so I can understand japanese for japanese now.

I do have a vocab deck which it will help you once you've gotten past the grammar or once you've gotten to a certain level of understanding. Initially it's good to start with a sentence deck and then go to vocab+sentence deck. Obviously separately. It helps you point out words you hear from native material more clearly. It has helped me endlessly, but i agree that you should do it only after a while. Not out of the get go.

Production I just mean practicing writig kanji(not RTK deck for kanji). From the readings to kanji in my anki deck. It strengths your memory of the readings/writings of that particular kanji. It's helpful if you keep doing it.

aphasiac Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:@errtu
As for AJATT 10,000 sentences. I have gotten to 10 500+ sentences in 8.1 months and I must say my reading/understanding skills are becoming close to fluent. But I don't plan on stopping with 10,000 sentences. I'll basically keep going until I've completely gotten fluent. Input helps with the speaking process as it helps you adapt to japanese, you'll eventually not need a translation or anything to understand japanese.

How many of those sentences did you mine yourself? I think it's been agreed on this forum that pre-made sentences do not count towards your 10,000 sentences - better to think of them more like extended vocab practise. Remember AJATT is all about consuming and breaking down native level media; the "10,000" sentence thing is a measure of how much time you've put into doing that.

Sorry not knocking you, 50 new cards a day for 8 months is pretty impressive, though I do wonder what your reviews are like. Be careful of burnout!

what pre made decks? i'm planning on going 3000 sentences japanese - english (input) with core 2000 (which i just learnt about) and ko2001 and tae kim's. once ive gotten to the level where i can go jap - jap. ill break down native media like u say.

aphasiac Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:@errtu
As for AJATT 10,000 sentences. I have gotten to 10 500+ sentences in 8.1 months and I must say my reading/understanding skills are becoming close to fluent. But I don't plan on stopping with 10,000 sentences. I'll basically keep going until I've completely gotten fluent. Input helps with the speaking process as it helps you adapt to japanese, you'll eventually not need a translation or anything to understand japanese.

How many of those sentences did you mine yourself? I think it's been agreed on this forum that pre-made sentences do not count towards your 10,000 sentences - better to think of them more like extended vocab practise. Remember AJATT is all about consuming and breaking down native level media; the "10,000" sentence thing is a measure of how much time you've put into doing that.

Sorry not knocking you, 50 new cards a day for 8 months is pretty impressive, though I do wonder what your reviews are like. Be careful of burnout!

i get yea. Well yes in the beginning I did break down everything and it seriously did take time to do so. In the beginning i was all about getting to so called 10,000 sentences. But honestly the sentence can only help you up to a point, immersion will help concrete what you've learned. I decided after a while breaking down every little detail was pointless(not in the beginning though), but after a while I started to not spend so much time on each card. That's why i've been able to do a lot each day. As for the burnout thingy. I give myself breaks with native material,etc so I can enjoy what I learned or just get some good immersion,etc. As for the 10,000 I agree with you on the pre-made decks but to be honest, I think it doesn't really matter all that much in the long-run. Let's say you search the word 寿司(sushi) and you break it down vs a pre-mine oned that states the same thing and is already broken down, all you have to do is go over it and make sure you understand it, know how to write it and read it. In the beginning yes i recommend everyone to break everything down, but once you've reached a certain level, you'll understand it without much effort without the need of breaking it down. (Well it depends I guess on what you're learning, a lot of the time if you know the meanings you can get by it easily, although sometimes it's not direct.)

Nukemarine Wrote:Fluency is how well you speak and listen. Literacy is how well you write and read. Ok, that's just my interpretation of the whole thing.

Seeing how far along he is, I'd like to see ta12121 post some audio or writing samples of his production ability. If for no other reason than to see how he progresses over the next few months.

I guess I'm in the half way mark then. I was thinking of doing just that in the next few months. Although I'd like to believe I've gotten far, there's still some things I need to do in order to improve more.

Since summertime has began, I can go over basic grammar in Japanese) and just review some of that stuff(And some english as well lol). I think for writing I should obviously try to write more(i.e. journals in japanese). And for reading obviously read a lot outside of my srs reps. And lastly this leaves speaking, the best I can do for myself is to practise out loud saying stuff in japanese that I know, copying what I listen to,etc. And lastly practicing with a native speaker if possible.

Also personally I sound so bad in japanese, I wonder how people develop those accents in japanese. They must be living in japan for sometime for that to happen or they just listen to japanese in large quantities.

ta12121 Wrote:

aphasiac Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:@errtu
As for AJATT 10,000 sentences. I have gotten to 10 500+ sentences in 8.1 months and I must say my reading/understanding skills are becoming close to fluent. But I don't plan on stopping with 10,000 sentences. I'll basically keep going until I've completely gotten fluent. Input helps with the speaking process as it helps you adapt to japanese, you'll eventually not need a translation or anything to understand japanese.

How many of those sentences did you mine yourself? I think it's been agreed on this forum that pre-made sentences do not count towards your 10,000 sentences - better to think of them more like extended vocab practise. Remember AJATT is all about consuming and breaking down native level media; the "10,000" sentence thing is a measure of how much time you've put into doing that.

Sorry not knocking you, 50 new cards a day for 8 months is pretty impressive, though I do wonder what your reviews are like. Be careful of burnout!

i get yea. Well yes in the beginning I did break down everything and it seriously did take time to do so. In the beginning i was all about getting to so called 10,000 sentences. But honestly the sentence can only help you up to a point, immersion will help concrete what you've learned. I decided after a while breaking down every little detail was pointless(not in the beginning though), but after a while I started to not spend so much time on each card. That's why i've been able to do a lot each day. As for the burnout thingy. I give myself breaks with native material,etc so I can enjoy what I learned or just get some good immersion,etc. As for the 10,000 I agree with you on the pre-made decks but to be honest, I think it doesn't really matter all that much in the long-run. Let's say you search the word 寿司(sushi) and you break it down vs a pre-mine oned that states the same thing and is already broken down, all you have to do is go over it and make sure you understand it, know how to write it and read it. In the beginning yes i recommend everyone to break everything down, but once you've reached a certain level, you'll understand it without much effort without the need of breaking it down. (Well it depends I guess on what you're learning, a lot of the time if you know the meanings you can get by it easily, although sometimes it's not direct.)

an example of breaking down would be?

example would be this 寿司(sushi). The first kanji is longevity and second is branch. reading for the word is "sushi". That's what i mean by breaking it down. But when you look at the meanings and then the actually word means sushi. It takes time by after a while you'll understand the kanji and how it works in context. Basically break down each word,each kanji in a sentence. And there readings.

kerosan41 Wrote:Whoa whoa, when did we agree to that? I think my KO2001 sentences are just as valid as my sentences picked from manga or my dictionary.

ta12121 Wrote:As for the 10,000 I agree with you on the pre-made decks but to be honest, I think it doesn't really matter all that much in the long-run. Let's say you search the word 寿司(sushi) and you break it down vs a pre-mine oned that states the same thing and is already broken down, all you have to do is go over it and make sure you understand it, know how to write it and read it.

I think the issue is that pre-made decks lack context. The AJATT sentence method works because you see or hear a sentence in a certain context, use SRS to remember it, then next time you encounter that sentence in the wild, you will remember the situation and therefore meaning. Using pre-made decks like KO2001 or Core 2000 take that away.

If it were really as simple as 10,000 sentences = fluency, then Khatzumoto would be making a killing selling his original deck as a sentence pack, and everybody on here would be sharing their SRS decks. But no one does...seriously, context is everything..

(this has been discussed to death here, search out old threads for more details).

aphasiac Wrote:

kerosan41 Wrote:Whoa whoa, when did we agree to that? I think my KO2001 sentences are just as valid as my sentences picked from manga or my dictionary.

ta12121 Wrote:As for the 10,000 I agree with you on the pre-made decks but to be honest, I think it doesn't really matter all that much in the long-run. Let's say you search the word 寿司(sushi) and you break it down vs a pre-mine oned that states the same thing and is already broken down, all you have to do is go over it and make sure you understand it, know how to write it and read it.

I think the issue is that pre-made decks lack context. The AJATT sentence method works because you see or hear a sentence in a certain context, use SRS to remember it, then next time you encounter that sentence in the wild, you will remember the situation and therefore meaning. Using pre-made decks like KO2001 or Core 2000 take that away.

If it were really as simple as 10,000 sentences = fluency, then Khatzumoto would be making a killing selling his original deck as a sentence pack, and everybody on here would be sharing their SRS decks. But no one does...seriously, context is everything..

(this has been discussed to death here, search out old threads for more details).

I hear yea. 10,000 sentences doesn't equal fluency but it does help you so much spread out in a period of time. Well I only recently started core 2000, and i'm blazing through it cuz I mined a lot of my own sentences in the beginning and broke it down.

aphasiac Wrote:

kerosan41 Wrote:Whoa whoa, when did we agree to that? I think my KO2001 sentences are just as valid as my sentences picked from manga or my dictionary.

ta12121 Wrote:As for the 10,000 I agree with you on the pre-made decks but to be honest, I think it doesn't really matter all that much in the long-run. Let's say you search the word 寿司(sushi) and you break it down vs a pre-mine oned that states the same thing and is already broken down, all you have to do is go over it and make sure you understand it, know how to write it and read it.

I think the issue is that pre-made decks lack context. The AJATT sentence method works because you see or hear a sentence in a certain context, use SRS to remember it, then next time you encounter that sentence in the wild, you will remember the situation and therefore meaning. Using pre-made decks like KO2001 or Core 2000 take that away.

If it were really as simple as 10,000 sentences = fluency, then Khatzumoto would be making a killing selling his original deck as a sentence pack, and everybody on here would be sharing their SRS decks. But no one does...seriously, context is everything..

(this has been discussed to death here, search out old threads for more details).

sure man that's true, but you need some kind of ground to put your feet on. i mean you can't just start watching fuji news and get your sentences on. you need japanese english sentences and then go from there to whatever media ya like. i think the first sentences can be pre made or not (taken from a learner's book or something) then jump right into japan times.

yeah i agree, but i still think that pre made decks can help you get started. just like babies learn from context so should we with the L2, right? the answer should be the immersion.

@ ta12121 oh yeah, the compund kanjis you meant. yeah i guess we gotta get used to them with the usage. could you please explain why you using a vocab deck? pretty please. why aren't sentences enough for vocab for you?

Well the reason why is because first off. I did start doing sentences in the beginning, quite a lot so I could get used to pronunciation/writing/grammar of Japanese. After a while once you get passed the barrier of not being able to understand Japanese by itself then vocab is useful. A lot of the time for me it's the one word that I don't understand out of a whole context full of kanji or so. Taking the time to search up it word you do is time consuming and does help you but I decided i might as well put a lot of effort into learning by via vocab deck and as well as a sentence deck.

On another note:The awesome part about anki is that, there is a plug-in for example sentences in japanese with each word(forgot what exactly is the plug-in called but i think it's example sentences.)

But back to vocab, it works effectively only when you've reached a certain level of understand in japanese(meaning you can understand japanese by itself, no need for english). It helps you in terms of picking out single words when listening to native-material and such.

Currently use a kanji deck, 1 sentence deck, 1 vocab deck, 1 production deck. Vocab has helped me in so much ways.Increase listening skills, increase reading skills, increase in the ability to pick out words I didn't know before in context and therefore being able to understand it. Also I think there was a previous discussion on this somewhere in this forum. You can search it up more on there, it's much better than my rambling gibberish I talk about.

Sorry I keep asking you these questions, but I find that your 7/8 months to JLPT2 thing interesting.

How are your decks formatted?
So like:
Vocab Deck
Question = Kanji
Answer = Hiragana + Meaning (English/Japanese)
or
Question = Hiragana (meaning?)
Answer = Kanji

Or just examples would work too, i guess.

Asriel Wrote:Sorry I keep asking you these questions, but I find that your 7/8 months to JLPT2 thing interesting.

How are your decks formatted?
So like:
Vocab Deck
Question = Kanji
Answer = Hiragana + Meaning (English/Japanese)
or
Question = Hiragana (meaning?)
Answer = Kanji

Or just examples would work too, i guess.

Yea the first example is right. Kanji for question and answer is readings/meanings/general english translation. I don't usual need to look at the translation but it's just there for a quick glance. I don't need to do J-J definitions anymore since I've gotten used to japanese now. It's been 8.3 months now. Last time I checked(although I could be very wrong here is that I'm around 1800+ kanji readings-checked using that site that checks for readings for joyo kanji). Although I still tend to forget basic stuff here and now but it's normal. Even I sometimes forget basic english stuff from time to time. Also I've taken the effort to read 20-50 pages of sites in japanese so I can get practicing reading out loud to myself. So news,manga,lyrics from songs,etc. I want to increase my reading skills by just keep on reading. I don't usually need to check words as I know most of them but having rikichan is a lifesaver at times

Also a lot of the time it's recongition I do not much writing. So I focus purely on recongition, sure I can write a lot of kanji I see no problem. But nowadays I've taken into consideration to write a lot using my production deck. Basically that deck is purely for writing sentences/vocab and stuff(Plan to reformat it to include usefull things to be able to write from memory from ease,numbers,counters,dates,times,subjects,daily conversations,etc basically anything that will be helpful (to write from memory)

alright, Vocab: Kanji // Reading + Meaning

Sentence: Kanji Sentence // Reading + Meaning
(going for the whole meaning, or just the meaning of a specified word?)

Kanji = rtk?

Production: Kanji sentence...clozed word? // Full Sentence + Reading + Meaning
(going for the word that's clozed out?)

For production it's readings to kanji(meanings if necessary/translation in the answer card).
I do also kanji rtk reviews,etc as well. Sentence yea follow the same format, sentence +kanji in question, then readings/meanings/other info if needed in the answer section

I'm not sure what level I am in now, could be lower could be higher. To be honest I've taken into consideration not to worry about JLPT 2 and 1. As long as I focus on improving my japanese to understand news in full, drama's in full(I can understand a lot of drama's easier nowadays, almost all of it). Songs, with lyrics I can understand 95% of it easily. Anime are easy I can understand it 85%. All these stats i'm stating are just subjective, could be lower or higher but this is what I feel in terms of understanding. News is still hard because of vocab, not hard cuz some of them are pretty easy to understand while others I'm clueless at times