When I try to conjugate a verb it goes like that:
"my teacher made me read the whole book"
1.read, causative
2. japanese translation: yomu
3. is it 1.dan or 5dan?
4. what is the causative ending?
5. yomaseru

It is even harder for me to find out what verbform it is, when I read it in a text.

How did you get better than that? Sentences?
I even considered making cards for conjugated verbs, but how can I found out for instance which verbs will often be used in the causative or passive or even causative-passive?

It is strange because I didn't learn conjugations in english and didn't have any problems with them. But in japanese it doesn't come that easily...

Thanks for your answers!

Try watching a lot of dramas/anime/movies and you'll hear the basic conjugations of the most common verbs so often, that they will stick into your head naturally, so instead of actually conjugating the verb, you'll be able to recall it.

I just studied the explanations for certain types of grammar points and then SRS'd example sentences for them, applying those explanations for each review of those sentences until it was internal. Likewise I was able to apply and check those explanations with similar sentences, cross-referencing with other explanations and sentences I'd learned, and so on.

Another way to go about it is to actually study the conjugations like algorithms or something, I'm sure Tobbs or someone could explain that better.

Regardless, I recommend using SRS for that or any process where you're transitioning from calculation to retrieval, even folks who are familiar with the principle but not with the software have found positive spacing results in their studies: http://timrickard.com/Papers/rlp2008.pdf

I think, aovora, that you are simply over analyzing this. It's really all about getting use to the way the language works. Simply read and listen to a lot of Japanese and before you know it you will be able to conjugate without thinking about any of that stuff. Hell, I have no idea how to classify verbs as 四段 or 下一段 or any of that.

I have no clue what 1dan or 5dan verbs are.

It sounds like you wouldn't have a problem reading it, but producing it takes a while, correct?
This is/was the same as me. Since you know the grammar, you know the conjugation, you know the ending, it's just a matter of using it that's troublesome, no?

This is one of the situations where I've found that production is useful. (recognition is useful for recognition skills, production is useful for production skills, zomg!)
I might add that *correct* production is useful. When I started this stage, I was in classes where we were corrected if we screwed it up. Now my girlfriend laughs at me if I make some mistake like that.

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Oh wait, I just found out that you said

Quote:It is even harder for me to find out what verbform it is, when I read it in a text.

Yeah, just do some more reading, SRSing, exposure. Once recognizing it becomes natural, then you can worry about fine-tuning your production.

aovora, you'll get better at that with practice; don't worry too much about it at this stage. I disagree with the others who are implying that you don't need to study the rules (not knowing what 1-dan and 5-dan are is not something you should be proud of).

Whoa, whoa, sorry if I gave off the wrong impression.
I know the rules, I just don't know what 1dan or 5dan verbs are.

The only distinction I know in verbs is ーう verbs and ーる verbs, and I know that's just a Genki thing. It's dumb because some うverbs can end in る (頑張る)

I took classes, I had to know the rules. I just don't think we're learning the same names for the rules.

Oh, OK...sorry, I didn't mean to seem so harsh.

1-dan is the same thing as a -ru verb, 5-dan is an -u verb. The １段 and ５段 names are the standard Japanese names for them.

Yeah, I do the same thing in my head when I am conjugating verbs. As I got more exposure, and practiced output more, certain verbs, and basic conjugations became fluid. Sometimes I can conjugate a verb without thinking about it, sometimes I have to go through that process.

Like kimagure said, after a while, you won't be conjugating in your head anymore, it will just happen.

You know, I don´t think I´ve ever conjugated a verb in any language except for spanish....

I recall something about English having "past participles" and "present progressive tenses" and somesuch, but I don't really know. Now I hear about 1dan and 5dan and "-te" forms. Again, I really don't bother.

...unless by "conjugating" a verb you just mean using it. In that case, I can conjugate instantly if I can remember the verb.

OK, then how did you learn to "use" verbs?

Have you ever had a conversation like this?

"Hey, since that I ate... I mean... have ate.... I mean... err, what's the form of 'eat' that you use with the auxiallary verb 'have?'"

"Eaten."

"Oh. Right. Sorry, I guess I should have studied my verb conjugations."

Probably not.

Keep in mind that "eat" is a highly irregular verb.

For the sake of entertainment, I will now, at least partially, conjugate a verb for ze berry farst taim.


走る
走って
走った
走ります

How complicated could this possibly be? You hear 「走って」a lot when people are telling other people to run, I think I learned 「走った」 from a Bump of Chicken song back when I was just starting (I already knew the verb itself from the previously mentioned people telling each other to run), and I´ll probably hear this verb tomorrow, too, maybe in some other form, like 走らない or 走られる　or something.

Oooo, and you know what´s fancy about verbs? They follow ＊ＧＡＳＰ＊ patterns! And you know what else? If you expose yourself to the language at all, you get enormous amounts of repetition on these patterns! Oh my!

hereticalrants Wrote:"Oh. Right. Sorry, I guess I should have studied my verb conjugations."

Dang it! I'd better get right on that.

EDIT: Ooo, look! Shiney distracting things!

hereticalrants Wrote:走る
走って
走った
走ります

it's not exactly hard to do the 3 most basic conjugations of which 2 are nearly the same.... not sure what your point is..

But in answer to the original question, after studying the causative, passive etc with みんなの日本語 I always search for example sentences in books, manga, drama sub files etc and add them to anki so that you get a feel for how it's used and have memorized some of the common usages.

Uhm... Ok...
Others that I can think of right now would be... 走れば、走らせる、走りません.

The subjunctive tense in Japanese is apparantly extremely difficult I can´t find any example sentences.
もういいよ、走ろう

caivano Wrote:not sure what your point is..

Distracting shiney things > unnecessary rote memorisation

Outside of a classroom, one always trumps the other. Inside of a classroom, it's a toss-up.

I love the Urban Dictionary:
6. Shiney

The Asian way to spell Shiny.
It is also known as Sparkley.
Bob:Hey look at what i found!
Joe:What?
Bob shows Joe the "Shiny" penny he found.
Joe:Ooh! Shiney!

yudantaiteki Wrote:(not knowing what 1-dan and 5-dan are is not something you should be proud of).

I'd just like to put in my vote that I think not knowing what these two things are IS something to be proud of. They are useless words that most Japanese can't identify with anyway (unless they remember a bit of classical from high school, which, just so you know, most don't). Not only that, but I've asked a Japanese person before what the proper particle was to use, using the word 助詞, and he looked at me for a second, then realized what I was asking, adding in that he had forgotten that word.

Essentially, my point here is don't worry about classifying verbs. Read a few things on conjugation (Tae Kim gives the best explanation, and no I'm not saying that just because I used it. I actually didn't.), then go ahead and read. You'll internalize it quicker than you think you would.

Not to mention the fact that a lot of times, in speech particularly, Japanese people will not correctly conjugate a verb anyway. For example, it's much more common than you'd think to end a sentence with て instead of the normal dictionary or ます ending. This implies a sense of something left unsaid that the listener should understand, of course, but that is very common in speech.

@Ryuujin: This is so true. In the past I have asked Japanese what the 動詞 or 名詞 is for something and they are like o_o? Which is kind of bothersome because unless there is another word for verb and noun (However, my pronunciation for noun may be wrong, and horrible context setup probably made them think I meant business card (；ﾞﾟ'ωﾟ'): )

Conjugation is always rough to start with but after you hear it and read it enough it sort of clicks. The hardest thing for me these days is picking the right conjugation on the fly. I still mix up past and present when I'm talking because I picked up a lot of words as clusters, so when I say a word I inadvertently say the clustered word attached to it which may not be in the proper conjugation. I still also have to stop and think about the conjugation for potential form.

Keep with it、 you'll get it (9｀･ω･)9頑張ﾘﾏｽ

Ryuujin27 Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:(not knowing what 1-dan and 5-dan are is not something you should be proud of).

I'd just like to put in my vote that I think not knowing what these two things are IS something to be proud of. They are useless words that most Japanese can't identify with anyway (unless they remember a bit of classical from high school, which, just so you know, most don't). Not only that, but I've asked a Japanese person before what the proper particle was to use, using the word 助詞, and he looked at me for a second, then realized what I was asking, adding in that he had forgotten that word.

This doesn't really matter because a Japanese person doesn't need to know Japanese grammar words. It's the same with English, most native speakers don't know what the perfect, past-perfect tenses are but if you ask any foreign English learner they will be able to tell you. And if they can't, they are likely to have terrible grammar.

Different learning methods are gonna work for different people but from experience teaching English, nearly every student that says they don't study grammar, has bad grammar.

With the Japanese people I've come across, they don't have a problem with things like 名詞　助詞　動詞 etc, but if you come down to 受身形 and stuff, it gets tougher.

Hell, as a native English speaker, I have no problem with Noun, Verb, Adjective, Adverb, etc..but I have no clue about "past-perfect" or "participle" or even the "passive voice" wouldn't have made sense to me before I studied Japanese.

caivano Wrote:

Ryuujin27 Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:(not knowing what 1-dan and 5-dan are is not something you should be proud of).

I'd just like to put in my vote that I think not knowing what these two things are IS something to be proud of. They are useless words that most Japanese can't identify with anyway (unless they remember a bit of classical from high school, which, just so you know, most don't). Not only that, but I've asked a Japanese person before what the proper particle was to use, using the word 助詞, and he looked at me for a second, then realized what I was asking, adding in that he had forgotten that word.

This doesn't really matter because a Japanese person doesn't need to know Japanese grammar words. It's the same with English, most native speakers don't know what the perfect, past-perfect tenses are but if you ask any foreign English learner they will be able to tell you. And if they can't, they are likely to have terrible grammar.

Different learning methods are gonna work for different people but from experience teaching English, nearly every student that says they don't study grammar, has bad grammar.

I'm seeing a lot of conflation of 'jargon' with 'grammar' here, on both sides. (Or a lackthereof on one side, but a conflation on the other.) Talking at cross purposes and suchlike.

To me this just goes back to the either/or mentality too many people have with grammar (in such bizarrely dualistic scenarios it's always prescriptive, memorizing jargon, or it's utterly anarchical, magically effective input-only without any explanations), learning materials vs. native sources, et cetera.

I was having trouble with this too so I made a verb conjugation production deck. Obviously there are some verbs which are used so frequently that it's easy to pick them up just by listening/reading, but there are also lots and lots of them that I just wasn't encountering enough to memorize through exposure. I knew the rules, but it was terribly embarrassing to have to pause in the middle of a conversation to think about them. I wanted to be able to say them quickly without thought.

My cards look like this:
Question: 読む (causative)
Answer: 読ませる

I've been using this deck for about 2 months and it has made noticeable improvements in my verb abilities. I'm much better at being able to do the correct conjugations in conversation at a reasonable speed. It's also much easier for me to hear and identify the conjugated forms when I'm listening.

This deck has ended up including more than verbs. I realized I was having trouble with some adjectives (like 暖かい) so I'm adding them as I come across them. I've also thrown in some counter lists.

This is one of the hardest thing for me in Japanese. I really can't grasp it I've read Tae Kim 3 times about them (conjugations in general be it verbs or adjectives), other grammar sources, even did exercises just for conjugation and I still can't get it.

Since its such a crucial part of language I can't get anywhere. I'm having a hard time understanding things (especially when listening) that should be very easy (I know all the words & grammar points for a sentence) but since the verb is conjugated it seems to get "lost" in all this other stuff. Its not even about the subtle details about what that conjugation does for a verb its the verb itself I can't understand (my brain just qualifies it as "unrecognized mumbling"), even if its something simple as 走る.

I feel like I'm exposing myself quite a lot but its still not enough. How much did you worked on this before it became your second nature?

hereticalrants Wrote:Oooo, and you know what´s fancy about verbs? They follow ＊ＧＡＳＰ＊ patterns! And you know what else? If you expose yourself to the language at all, you get enormous amounts of repetition on these patterns! Oh my!

Are you claiming that you learned to conjugate Japanese verbs purely through exposure, without ever reading any explanations of it in a textbook or grammar dictionary?

Yes, I am. Well, I read the explanations, in Japanese, later.