caivano Wrote:

Ryuujin27 Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:(not knowing what 1-dan and 5-dan are is not something you should be proud of).

I'd just like to put in my vote that I think not knowing what these two things are IS something to be proud of. They are useless words that most Japanese can't identify with anyway (unless they remember a bit of classical from high school, which, just so you know, most don't). Not only that, but I've asked a Japanese person before what the proper particle was to use, using the word 助詞, and he looked at me for a second, then realized what I was asking, adding in that he had forgotten that word.

This doesn't really matter because a Japanese person doesn't need to know Japanese grammar words. It's the same with English, most native speakers don't know what the perfect, past-perfect tenses are but if you ask any foreign English learner they will be able to tell you. And if they can't, they are likely to have terrible grammar.

Different learning methods are gonna work for different people but from experience teaching English, nearly every student that says they don't study grammar, has bad grammar.

I am not a native English speaker. And I couldn't explain that to somebody else if they asked me(without looking it up). I do have my grammar faults here and there. But I don't think it is that bad hehe, Of course I have studied those grammar points before. But now I just do it(and usually correct I believe)

I can't comment on Japanese verbs yet because I am still at the basics. But I have the feeling it would go the same.

mentat_kgs Wrote:Yes, I am. Well, I read the explanations, in Japanese, later.

Funny. You're not helping! ;p

Edit: Know what? Nevermind, have fun. ;p

loonytik Wrote:I am not a native English speaker. And I couldn't explain that to somebody else if they asked me(without looking it up). I do have my grammar faults here and there. But I don't think it is that bad hehe, Of course I have studied those grammar points before. But now I just do it(and usually correct I believe)

I can't comment on Japanese verbs yet because I am still at the basics. But I have the feeling it would go the same.

haha nah your English is good, I guess I was thinking of people who are around the level to be learning that grammar, as the subject would never come up with high level students. In fact I haven't taught it for about 6 months and I doubt I could explain it without looking it up either :$

caivano Wrote:...but if you ask any foreign English learner they will be able to tell you. And if they can't, they are likely to have terrible grammar.

Different learning methods are gonna work for different people but from experience teaching English, nearly every student that says they don't study grammar, has bad grammar.

Really!? I have the exact opposite experience. All the Japanese people I come across that take grammar rules into consideration too much speak really, really bad English. They are the ones who are always asking me different questions about how to say something and why it is that way. My Japanese friends that speak the best English are the ones that just do stuff in English all the time. I've asked a few of them before if they know grammar rules such as the past-participle and other more "complex" subjects and they always tell me they remember reading it somewhere, but they just don't remember what it is.

So, I'm not saying your experiences are wrong, I'm just saying that I have the exact opposite encounters for some reason.

I'm gonna get castrated for this, but I hate grammar too. I'm of the opinion that with enough exposure and practice, it'll become secondhand.

I have been religiously following Tae Kim's guide, trying to nail the absolute basics of most things, but that's about it. I personally don't have much reason to care where the grammar points came from and why they are used, or even what they are (aside from the basics). All I'm interested in is how to use them correctly (and long-winded explanations about how to use it hurt me more than help me).

If you're just having a casual conversation with someone, I think if you make a mistake, you're going to remember the mistake a lot more the next time you use it instead of someone telling you, "Oh, that's wrong. You were supposed to used the present-perfect tense here and add this word there to make it correct." Yeah... I'll forget that in about an hour. Who's gonna tell you that anyway besides a teacher maybe? A Japanese person is just gonna give you the correct conjugation of the verb, he/she probably doesn't even know wtf conjugation it is either.

Like others said, different learning methods. We all learn differently. I personally learn from loads of exposure and practice, and making mistakes. Reading about how to do something usually just ends up with whatever I read going right over my head.

But where do you start if you're not going to read any grammar rules?

We're not talking in this thread about abstract, high-level grammatical concepts. We're talking about conjugating verbs, which is Japanese 101. I am extremely skeptical of anyone who claims to have learned to conjugate verbs without ever looking at any English explanation or verb conjugation table.

yudantaiteki Wrote:But where do you start if you're not going to read any grammar rules?

We're not talking in this thread about abstract, high-level grammatical concepts. We're talking about conjugating verbs, which is Japanese 101. I am extremely skeptical of anyone who claims to have learned to conjugate verbs without ever looking at any English explanation or verb conjugation table.

Who here ever claimed that you shouldn't read grammar rules? Sure, read them over. Get them into your head. However, don't worry yourself every time you see a verb to figure out what category it is, or how to conjugate it in all its forms. Just read and read and read. You'll get it.

I don't think anyone here will say that you can just read and intuitively infer grammar (maybe in French or Italian for English speakers), but definitely not in Japanese. So, just read the grammar rules, but don't get hung up on grammatical terms.

yudantaiteki Wrote:But where do you start if you're not going to read any grammar rules?

Offshore Wrote:I have been religiously following Tae Kim's guide, trying to nail the absolute basics of most things, but that's about it.

I never said I don't read grammar rules. I more or less meant I like to get a veeery basic grasp of what's going on, then hit the ground running and encounter the stuff in the wild, gradually finding other uses and such. Of course I need the English explanations right now, hence Tae Kim for the basic stuff. But beyond that, dictionaries of grammar and the like, don't really jive well with me.

I guess my point is I'm a visual learner. It's the same pretty much in every subject, not just language, for me. I have to see something being used, or see something being done, and then go do it myself many times (usually making plenty of mistakes and being corrected). I cannot read about how to do something or how to use something. It just bores me to tears and nothing sticks. Even just reading through the Tae Kim lessons, I hardly ever remember half the stuff until I've made a bunch of mistakes on it in my sentence deck. I usually end up rereading half the lessons over again after a week, because after seeing how I was doing something wrong, it usually makes more sense reading through it again.

I know what you meant though. For the basics, yeah. You need to read things to get started, but after you reach a certain point, you can start to piece things together and pretty much figure stuff out on your own. Usually if I come across a grammar issue I've seen a lot, but don't understand, I'll go clarify a basic overview of it(like a paragraph and 1 example) of it real quick somewhere on the 'net.

IDK. I know my views on grammar acquisition aren't very popular, but to each his own I guess. It works for me. Doesn't work for you. We're all different.

Nicely said, Ryuujin.

OK, then say what you mean, don't imply or state that grammar rules are totally useless. Statements like "I don´t think I´ve ever conjugated a verb in any language except for spanish" and "a lot of times, in speech particularly, Japanese people will not correctly conjugate a verb anyway" have a very high potential to mislead beginners and make them think that they can just completely skip explanations of any kind.

hereticalrants Wrote:Nicely said, Ryuujin.

Not nicely said, hereticalrants.

I think if anyone that is just starting out learning a language thinks that they can learn any grammar without any explanations is doomed to fail from the start anyway. It doesn't take much exposure to any language to realize that if you know zero grammar you aren't going to get very far... whether other people imply that grammar is useless or not.

Neutrally said, Thora.

The construct of grammar is necessary for effective communication. Studying it beyond what is necessary for basic comprehension is not.

If you don´t understand something, you should definitely try to figure it out--but more on the lines of, "what does this mean?" or even "how can I become awesome enough to say this?"

This is a　億段 verb, and it has the über begining property due to its dual quasineutral gender, so you give it ____ ending for the triple permuculative tense and that tense is used when you think that some crazy shit is going on.

example: 走てでられらレラレラレアアアアア！！

I used the permuculative tense just yesterday, on the bus. For some reason everybody got all quiet and just stared at me until I got off.

Ryuujin27 Wrote:

caivano Wrote:...but if you ask any foreign English learner they will be able to tell you. And if they can't, they are likely to have terrible grammar.

Different learning methods are gonna work for different people but from experience teaching English, nearly every student that says they don't study grammar, has bad grammar.

Really!? I have the exact opposite experience. All the Japanese people I come across that take grammar rules into consideration too much speak really, really bad English. They are the ones who are always asking me different questions about how to say something and why it is that way. My Japanese friends that speak the best English are the ones that just do stuff in English all the time. I've asked a few of them before if they know grammar rules such as the past-participle and other more "complex" subjects and they always tell me they remember reading it somewhere, but they just don't remember what it is.

So, I'm not saying your experiences are wrong, I'm just saying that I have the exact opposite encounters for some reason.

Ah I should have been clearer... when I said English learner I meant people who are pretty low level and still actively learning (should be learning) basic / intermediate grammar. People who have been using English for years aren't going to need to think about grammar as you say, but they probably studied it properly at some point, likely at school / university if they are young.

hereticalrants Wrote:This is a　億段 verb, and it has the über begining property due to its dual quasineutral gender, so you give it ____ ending for the triple permuculative tense and that tense is used when you think that some crazy shit is going on.

example: 走てでられらレラレラレアアアアア！！

I used the permuculative tense just yesterday, on the bus. For some reason everybody got all quiet and just stared at me until I got off.

That's because it's supposed to be a long エ sound at the end, not ア. The way you said it is only used by an elusive Transvestite Yakuza group rumored to operate out of Okinawa. It's no wonder you got weird looks.

yudantaiteki Wrote:OK, then say what you mean, don't imply or state that grammar rules are totally useless. Statements like "I don´t think I´ve ever conjugated a verb in any language except for spanish" and "a lot of times, in speech particularly, Japanese people will not correctly conjugate a verb anyway" have a very high potential to mislead beginners and make them think that they can just completely skip explanations of any kind.

I believe I've been saying that from the beginning, though. I could be mistaken. Maybe I meant to but didn't clearly state that.

Either way, I won't rescind my previous comment about Japanese speakers conjugating verbs "wrong," as they do it all the time. But then again, since it is their language, one can't really say it's wrong if it's become common practice. I guess we'll call it... against textbook Japanese.

caivano Wrote:Ah I should have been clearer... when I said English learner I meant people who are pretty low level and still actively learning (should be learning) basic / intermediate grammar. People who have been using English for years aren't going to need to think about grammar as you say, but they probably studied it properly at some point, likely at school / university if they are young.

Ah yeah, that's understandable. But I'd also like to add that at least 4 of the 6 people I've been referring to (who I've asked about their background with English) have told me that they always failed it in high school and never studied it much, but were still able to pick it up quick because of the vague memories of grammar rules they read a long time ago. Which I guess is further proof that just skimming through some grammar rules a few times is more than sufficient.

Ryuujin27 Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:OK, then say what you mean, don't imply or state that grammar rules are totally useless. Statements like "I don´t think I´ve ever conjugated a verb in any language except for spanish" and "a lot of times, in speech particularly, Japanese people will not correctly conjugate a verb anyway" have a very high potential to mislead beginners and make them think that they can just completely skip explanations of any kind.

I believe I've been saying that from the beginning, though. I could be mistaken. Maybe I meant to but didn't clearly state that.

Either way, I won't rescind my previous comment about Japanese speakers conjugating verbs "wrong," as they do it all the time. But then again, since it is their language, one can't really say it's wrong if it's become common practice. I guess we'll call it... against textbook Japanese.

Even when they conjugate "incorrectly", it still follows an internal grammar. An example is ら抜き. They don't just conjugate things randomly and inconsistently unless they are very young or stupid.

In any case, having a detailed knowledge of grammar isn't required of course, but it is highly recommended. There is a lot of order/interconnections behind the scenes that you can't see just from a cursory osmosis based approach. In the end that makes it easier, even if it's more to remember upfront. Truly understanding conjugation and the verb forms, for example, makes it so much more clear/obvious than the muddled stuff in typical JSL textbooks. Understanding conjugation doesn't just help with doing verbs, it helps with particles, suffixes, compound word formation, reading comprehension, etc.

It might be overwhelming when you're still beginning, but it's something you should come back to at a later time if you really want to understand Japanese.

Jarvik7 Wrote:It might be overwhelming when you're still beginning, but it's something you should come back to at a later time if you really want to understand Japanese.

100% agreed. I've recently come back to studying more grammar, although my purpose is classical Japanese, it's the same concept really.

However, in the beginning, studying a lot of grammar is just not necessary.

Quote:Even when they conjugate "incorrectly", it still follows an internal grammar

Yeah, like わからん can pretty much be directly translated as "dunno."
I dunno whether either of them are technically correct.

Mcjon01 Wrote:That's because it's supposed to be a long エ sound at the end, not ア. The way you said it is only used by an elusive Transvestite Yakuza group rumored to operate out of Okinawa. It's no wonder you got weird looks.

Oh dear. I do believe you are right.