I recently came across, in a passing remark, the observation that the もう of "already" and the もう of "one more" are actually pronounced differently. (I guess that the difference is in pitch/intonation, but beyond this guess I have no clue on how these two differ, and any info would be appreciated.)

Also, I recall hearing something similar about HA-shi=箸=chopsticks and ha-SHI=橋=bridge.

I find such random, isolated bits of trivia more annoying than amusing.

What would be useful is a comprehensive list of such phonological "minimal pairs", along with the audio contrasting the items in each pair. But that'd be too good to be true... (Anyway, FWIW, my Google search did not turn it up, but then again, I'm a Google retard).

On the assumption that the ideal described above does not exist (or is not readily available to me), what would be the closest alternative?

TIA!

there's a list of such words with audio in a wikipedia article on Japanese pitch accent, why don't you start there?

Kubelek Wrote:there's a list of such words with audio in a wikipedia article on Japanese pitch accent, why don't you start there?

Thanks! That's better than anything else I found. (This is what I mean when I say I'm a Google retard: I searched for "japanese phonetics" and not for "japanese pitch accent"; I didn't even know the latter term.)

http://sp.cis.iwate-u.ac.jp/sp/lesson/j/...centl.html

another one

gfb345 Wrote:I find such random, isolated bits of trivia more annoying than amusing.

These are not random isolated bits of trivia. Most J-J dictionaries contain pitch accent information for most words.

Quote:What would be useful is a comprehensive list of such phonological "minimal pairs", along with the audio contrasting the items in each pair.

I'm not so sure; trying to learn similar items together may lead to memory interference. Also, learning the pitch of "unpaired words" (the majority of words) is just as important as this.

Quote:On the assumption that the ideal described above does not exist (or is not readily available to me), what would be the closest alternative?

Just search a dictionary, using かな:

http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/srch/all/%E3...81%84/m1u/

Notice how the first いらい is marked 1, while the second one is marked zero. The number indicates the accented mora (zero if there's none).

[meta note: someone ought to write about this on the RevTK wiki; it's asked frequently enough. Translating this detailed explanation may be a good start]

iSoron Wrote:Also, learning the pitch of "unpaired words" (the majority of words) is just as important as this.

One can make the opposite case: The minimal pairs correspond to those cases where the wrong pitch carries a greater risk of misunderstanding than for the rest of the words.

iSoron Wrote:Just search a dictionary, using かな:

http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/srch/all/%E3...81%84/m1u/

Notice how the first いらい is marked 1, while the second one is marked zero. The number indicates the accented mora (zero if there's none).

Thanks!

(Unfortunately, I think it will be years before I'm able to use a J-J dictionary.)

Can anyone explain the difference in pronunciation between "already-もう" and "one-more-もう"? Is there indeed a difference in pronunciation between these two words?

----

PS: I tried to answer this question by using http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp as iSoron recommended (even though its result pages are far above my reading level), but as far as I can tell (which is not much at all), for the "already-もう"/"one-more-もう" pair, it does not give enough pronunciation info to answer my question. The results I get for もう look like this:

(http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/srch/all/もう/m1u/)

もう 1 【▼蒙】
道理に暗いこと。蒙昧 (もうまい) 。 ——を啓 (ひら) ・く 道理に暗い人を教え導く。啓蒙する。
もう 1 0
（副） (1)時間や程度が、ある基準や節目を超えることを表す。もはや。 「—あれから一年たつ」「—三時...
もう　まう 【猛】
（名・形動）[文] ナリ (1)勢いがさかんである・こと（さま）。 「勢 (いきおい) —に/婦系図（鏡花）」...
も・う　もふ 【▽思ふ/▽念ふ】
（動ハ四） 〔「おもう」の転〕思う。 「みやびたる花と我 (あれ) —・ふ/万葉 852」
もう　まう 【申】
〔「まうす（申）」の略〕⇒ ものもう（物申） ⇒ あんないもう（案内申）

The first problem I have is that I can't quite figure out which of these entries correspond to "already-もう" and "one-more-もう"!!!

At any rate, only two entries have pronunciation info, and the first one of these seems to be about the benighted and their enlightenment, so it has nothing to do with either of "already-もう"/"one-more-もう".

My second problem is interpreting the pronunciation info for the remaining entry that has any, namely:

もう 1 0

Does this mean that it can be pronounced either with a pitch-accent on the first mora, or with no pitch-accent?

But anyway, the bottom line is that, no matter how I slice it, it looks like the difference between "already-もう" and "one-more-もう" is not resolved by these results.

Entries may lack pronunciation because that word has "no" pitch (the majority of words have no pitch, meaning it is pattern 0), or it's rare and so they don't have info on it in the dictionary.

There are 7 pitches patterns in total according to daijirin.
0 low-high (no pitch)
1 high-low (initial high pitch)
2 low-high-low
3 low-high-high-low
4 low-high-high-high-low
5 low-high-high-high-high-low
6 low-high-high-high-high-high-low

For patterns 2 and higher, the number refer to how many "highs" there are before returning to low pitch (n-1).

When there are two numbers it means it can use either tone. According to the NHK accent dictionary, もう is always L-H when it means "again", but can be either when it means "already". It says this in 大辞林 too.. There is an accent number after definition #3 (0) which is the one for again.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Entries may lack pronunciation because that word has "no" pitch (the majority of words have no pitch, meaning it is pattern 0), or it's rare and so they don't have info on it in the dictionary.

Good to know, thanks.

Jarvik7 Wrote:There are 7 pitches patterns in total according to daijirin.
0 low-high (no pitch)
1 high-low (initial high pitch)
2 low-high-low
3 low-high-high-low
4 low-high-high-high-low
5 low-high-high-high-high-low
6 low-high-high-high-high-high-low

!!! That's amazing, especially in light of what you write in the previous paragraph. (I.e. for the relatively rare phenomenon of pitch-accent, daijirin sure is prepared for a lot of nuance. It's as if Mexicans had 6 different words to differentiate among shades of snow! )

Jarvik7 Wrote:According to the NHK accent dictionary, it is always L-H when it means "again", but can be either when it means "already".

Thanks!

For some reason I'm drawing parallels between this word and dam(n). The intonation changes depending on the word's usage.

gfb345 Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:There are 7 pitches patterns in total according to daijirin.
0 low-high (no pitch)
1 high-low (initial high pitch)
2 low-high-low
3 low-high-high-low
4 low-high-high-high-low
5 low-high-high-high-high-low
6 low-high-high-high-high-high-low

!!! That's amazing, especially in light of what you write in the previous paragraph. (I.e. for the relatively rare phenomenon of pitch-accent, daijirin sure is prepared for a lot of nuance. It's as if Mexicans had 6 different words to differentiate among shades of snow! )

The number simply indicates the mora on which the fall in pitch occurs, with 0 indicating no pitch fall (a LHH.... word is usually referred to as "unaccented").

(However, these pitch indications are for the word in isolation. In a sentence, words can start on H instead of L if the previous word was unaccented.)

EDIT: Intonation is different from pitch accent, because there's also intonational differences that can change the meaning of a word (i.e. そうですか？ vs. そうですか。) Intonation and pitch combine; I know my students often have a difficult time with the pronunciation of これ？ because you have to combine the accented (HL) word これ with the questioning intonation.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Jarvik7 wrote:

There are 7 pitches patterns in total according to daijirin.
0 low-high (no pitch)
1 high-low (initial high pitch)
2 low-high-low
3 low-high-high-low
4 low-high-high-high-low
5 low-high-high-high-high-low
6 low-high-high-high-high-high-low

This secret code is exactly what I've been wondering about for some time - thanks! Now I just have to SRS it for a while until I know the numbers... [/J]

editto:

Although...based on the few words I know (or think I know) the pitch for, the dictionary's pitch description is plausible but not the same as what I've been hearing (Tokyo speakers)...?

Could be my listening at fault.

If you're sure they are Tokyo speakers, it can be (at least) three explanations:
1. You're not hearing it correctly
2. The dictionary's listed pitch accent is a conservative, prescriptive one that doesn't match actual usage
3. The pitch is different because it's in the middle of a word

The music teacher at a Japanese school I worked at needed to know the proper pitch for some words like this, but she said she couldn't find a reference for it in Japanese, so she had to borrow my Japanese/English dictionary, which was in romaji, but listed pitch.

Wow, that was quite a run-on sentence, I've been reading a lot of Japanese lately.

yudantaiteki Wrote:1. You're not hearing it correctly
2. The dictionary's listed pitch accent is a conservative, prescriptive one that doesn't match actual usage
3. The pitch is different because it's in the middle of a word

Thanks for this, it's useful. I hadn't thought of 2. and 3. is very helpful (I know it happens in Mandarin, for instance)

An example is 久し振り、ひさしぶり. In the dictionary http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn/1620...%E3%82%8A/ it says:

Quote:◆アクセント ： ひさしぶり 0 5

*****AHA***** [light dawns] I have now noticed two numbers there. So there's an alternative! And in fact "0" is what I heard recently (I asked her to repeat it so I'm sure about that) - all low then high at the end.

I will test my other words to see if I have overlooked similar things. Quite possibly!

Anyway I'm really glad to hear pitch mentioned as I think it's important (certainly for me). Thanks for the information and I hope you don't mind this reply that seems to change its mind halfway through!

Of course the difference between 0 and 5 in ひさしぶり is only apparent when it's followed by something else (i.e. です would be HL if ひさしぶり is 0, and LL if ひさしぶり is 5). I agree with you that I think it's usually 0 when I hear it, and I say it with 0, but my pitch accent is far from perfect so I never rely on my own knowledge for that.

As for もう that has the meaning of "already," the standard accent is on "も” according to goo: http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/srch/all/%E3...81%86/m0u/
Anyone know if the 0 after 1 is referring to 関西弁？ That's what a Japanese friend told me before but it's hard to imagine that it would be limited to just standard and western accents. There's more than just 関西弁 and 標準語... (maybe they're trying to cover the most dominant bases).

Nuriko Wrote:As for もう that has the meaning of "already," the standard accent is on "も” according to goo: http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/srch/all/%E3...81%86/m0u/
Anyone know if the 0 after 1 is referring to 関西弁？ That's what a Japanese friend told me before but it's hard to imagine that it would be limited to just standard and western accents. There's more than just 関西弁 and 標準語... (maybe they're trying to cover the most dominant bases).

第一種アクセント used in dialects spoken in the Kansai region takes advantage of pitch in a different way than 第二種アクセント used in Tokyo. Also, dialects using the former accent system have a wider inventory of pitch patters than the dialect spoken in Tokyo, so marking the pitch drop point isn't enough to describe each word's pitch pattern. If your dictionary doesn't use a more complicated system to indicate pitch patterns that don't appear in standard Japanese, most likely alternative numbers aren't referring to the Kansai dialect.

If the pitch pattern of もう as in もう帰れや (Go home already) in the Kansai dialect were described in a dictionary by the high and low system, it'd be H-H. Both moras in もう will never be pronounced in low pitch in the dialect (At least we don't in Osaka).

philiphoward123 Wrote:And in fact "0" is what I heard recently [...] - all low then high at the end.

Zero means Low High High ... High.