socrat Wrote:I showed the N2 test to a native speaker and she thought the reading was exceptionally hard for the the supposed level of N2.

She said especially with the time limit and the possibility that multiple answers fit a lot of Japanese would miss quite a few questions. Although, of course they would probably pass. She even thought most jp students would have a hard time with it and her parents too, but probably an exaggeration.

I think she is just being polite. There is no way in hell any native speaker (at a reasonable age) would have even the slightest problems reading that. They might slip on a few trick questions but thats because this test is meant to be confusing. Even kanji shouldn't be a problem since its only 1000 of them and I'm sure most parents teach their kids some ahead of school.

socrat Wrote:It's like if I took the toeic for english, I'm sure I might miss a lot of the questions just because I'm not use to taking that type of test.

Trust me you wouldn't. TOEIC doesn't have those irritating questions and is generally comprehension oriented (easy too). You'd probably pass it while drunk without making a single mistake. Any 10yo kid would probably do the same if only you'd find a way to keep them focused throughout the whole thing.

gyuujuice Wrote:Maybe in listening, but I don't think they would be able to read N1 material. By the end of 6th grade you should know 1000 -- which is half of the 常用漢字. :\

Yes, but those are the 1000 kanji they`re taught how to write and are expected to reproduce from memory, it doesn`t take into account all of the hundreds of others they encounter while reading books. By the sixth grade, kids are reading novels and doing reports on articles they find in the newspaper, so they get exposed to the rest of the kanji on a regular basis. And whereas many of us, as JSL students, are seeing a new vocabulary word with a new kanji all the time, by the time these kids get around to the kanji of a word, they`ve already been very familiar with the vocabulary and have heard it and used it throughout their lives.

I think if anything, the grammar section might be tricky. The older grammar forms they may not encounter until they have to read literature in junior high or high school.

socrat Wrote:I showed the N2 test to a native speaker and she thought the reading was exceptionally hard for the the supposed level of N2.

I think I agree with thurd on this in that it was more politeness than anything. My girlfriend did the same thing when I showed her N1 stuff and said I should be teaching Japanese if I could understand this stuff, meanwhile every single time I get a question wrong and show her she immediately figures out the answer and has never gotten one wrong :/

I don`t want to give the impression that I think the JLPT is for wimps (as it does a good job of kicking my ass), but its still not the end of the journey (depending on your goals of course). I got a dose of reality the other day when looking at the 日本語検定 for native speakers and seeing problems in the mid-levels that seemed about N1 difficulty, then checking the chart and seeing that it was 初級II level.

If anything, passing JLPT1 is the beginning of the journey.

mezbup Wrote:If anything, passing JLPT1 is the beginning of the journey.

can't agree with this more

I showed the N2 test to Japanese elementary school kids. 6th graders had no problem, 5th graders were iffy and 4th graders had no idea what was going on.

I also showed N1 to junior high students. Same results. 3rd graders couldn't find very many hard questions, 2nd graders were missing grammar and 1st graders had no idea.

Just a small sample though and skewed by the fact these kids are at school and juku 6 days a week.

Womacks23 Wrote:I showed the N2 test to Japanese elementary school kids. 6th graders had no problem, 5th graders were iffy and 4th graders had no idea what was going on.

I also showed N1 to junior high students. Same results. 3rd graders couldn't find very many hard questions, 2nd graders were missing grammar and 1st graders had no idea.

Just a small sample though and skewed by the fact these kids are at school and juku 6 days a week.

Great observations though. Basically a smart 6th grader has no problems with N2, and a smart 3rd grader (in HS) as no problems with N1.

Many Japanese people will say "oh that's so hard" or "even I can't read a newspaper." I don't want to call it bullshit- it's just culture. They're trying to make you feel good and more like you fit in. I had some of my 6th graders tell me that they regularly read the newspaper. The first time I heard that I was like "wait... what? Do you understand it?" They're like... yeah, of course.

"Many Japanese people will say "oh that's so hard" or "even I can't read a newspaper." I don't want to call it bullshit- it's just culture. They're trying to make you feel good and more like you fit in. I had some of my 6th graders tell me that they regularly read the newspaper. The first time I heard that I was like "wait... what? Do you understand it?" They're like... yeah, of course."

Haha, it's so true. Today I was told by a Japanese person that I type Japanese faster than she does. I really doubt that but it gets annoying to deny every time so occasionally I go with it and say something like, "Well for a FL teacher you are expected to be slow [for our benefit]."

I'm surprised how low the JLPT 1 is though. I was thinking it would be around Junior HS. (In kanji and grammatical expressions.... I know the average passive vocabulary is probably twice that of N1 -- which freaks me out.)

Every time I think about how little I know I think about how I get by with being a native English speaker. There are thousands of words I "get" when I hear/see them but could never give a proper definition or spell correctly. As a dude I only use 10% of my vocabulary anyways -- the girls in my family have a 2-word vocabulary of "cute" and "that's nice". You don't really need to have a 25,000 word vocabulary.

皆さんより僕のほうが若いのですが。。。。

People will say "ああ、日本語が上手ですねー" if you can string together the most basic of stuff. Sentences that equate to "Toilet where is free in the now are?" in English will get you the equivalent of a Gold Star and a Pat on the Head.

Seriously. I think back when I was there 3 years ago, and just cringe. And I heard that phrase a lot.

Viva Anki.

JLPT1 might not test advanced material (debatable) but it's still a hard test, as the pass rate shows. And I don't see why it supposedly being at the same level of proficiency as a teenager is some mark of shame - most people's reading level won't improve beyond what it is at that age.

Your point it well taken. My dream is to one day have the level of proficiency that these kids do and one can get by quite well on `just`a teenager`s native ability.

I think the `mark of shame` is just that there are so few skills that a 9 year old can crush an adult at, especially a skill that the adult has been practicing hard on. When I`m sitting there furrowing my brow over some phrase I can`t quite make heads or tails of, then I look over and see two ten-year-olds shoving dirt into their pants and realizing that they know exactly what the phrase means, its kind of a strange feeling. But that`s language aquisition for you.

julianjalapeno Wrote:When I`m sitting there furrowing my brow over some phrase I can`t quite make heads or tails of, then I look over and see two ten-year-olds shoving dirt into their pants and realizing that they know exactly what the phrase means, its kind of a strange feeling.

Quote of the day. Had an actual lol there

Has anyone in the US gotten their exam entrance tickets yet? Just wondering. Haven't got mine yet, and the website just says "mid-November."

I'd kind of like to know where precisely in DC, besides "Georgetown University" the exam will be, so I can get a decent hotel nearby.

@rich_f -- not yet. I'm really hoping it comes soon, because my ride (dad) would like to know where to drive us Japanese students, apart from just "DePaul University" (iirc)

JLPT1 is not a mastery of the Japanese language.

Quite the contrary actually: It's just the beginning of realizing how little you know.

ocircle Wrote:JLPT1 is not a mastery of the Japanese language.

Quite the contrary actually: It's just the beginning of realizing how little you know.

I used to think JLPT 1 was the end to end all knowledge of Japanese(whenever I hear those proficiency tests I assume people know the language inside out) but it's not like that. You master a language when you can do the exact same stuff natives can do in all skills(fluency)

No matter how long or how hard you study a second language you will never attain the "fluency" of a native (unless you were raised bilingual perhaps?), sorry to break it to you guys!

But that's not really the point of L2 learning is it?

Woot. Admission voucher (US) showed up, along with a long list of "don't"s. Fun.

rich_f Wrote:Woot. Admission voucher (US) showed up, along with a long list of "don't"s. Fun.

Same here. I'm tacking it to my wall as a reminder to study >_<

slivir Wrote:No matter how long or how hard you study a second language you will never attain the "fluency" of a native (unless you were raised bilingual perhaps?), sorry to break it to you guys!

But that's not really the point of L2 learning is it?

Wrong.

Most people simply become satisfied when they reach a good enough level and don't keep trying to improve actively.

I wouldn't describe myself as native level, but my knowledge exceeds natives in several areas and lacks in others.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Most people simply become satisfied when they reach a good enough level and don't keep trying to improve actively.

There is nothing wrong with that. Depending on situation most learners don't really need stellar proficiency and each step further to fluency takes more time than all the previous combined.

Definition of fluency complicates this even more since what is "fluent" for one person is mediocre for another. But still he might get by very well on his "fluency", all depends of ones needs.

Jarvik7 Wrote:I wouldn't describe myself as native level, but my knowledge exceeds natives in several areas and lacks in others.

Yeah, I probably know more Go related vocabulary & terms than 95% of Japanese but that doesn't make me even one bit more "native" or "fluent".

Anyway to get back to the topic, I'm only 300 sentences away from finishing my first round with N2 grammar. After that it's just reviews, reviews, reviews and loads of simultaneous text+audio (FFXIII should be good for that). I'll work on past exams just before the actual test.

My post had nothing to do with fluency or anything being wrong with anything. I simply stated that native level L2 ability is in fact possible, just that most people stop studying before they reach it.

slivir Wrote:No matter how long or how hard you study a second language you will never attain the "fluency" of a native (unless you were raised bilingual perhaps?), sorry to break it to you guys!

Let's play spot the native English speaker:

Exhbit 1:

Exhibit 2:

What I'm saying is that a L2 learner will always have some quirk which will set them apart from a native. It could be a slight intonation error or maybe you'll miss the point of some lesser known proverb. Whether you become "fluent" in your own eyes is beside the point, you will never be on the exact same level as a native. And that's fine.

slivir Wrote:What I'm saying is that a L2 learner will always have some quirk which will set them apart from a native. It could be a slight intonation error or maybe you'll miss the point of some lesser known proverb. Whether you become "fluent" in your own eyes is beside the point, you will never be on the exact same level as a native. And that's fine.

Being native level doesn't mean you can understand everything in the target language, it means you can understand everything the average native speaker does. There are plenty of native speakers that will make the occasional intonational errors and miss the point of lesser known proverbs (i mean, that's what "lesser known" means right?). There are even native speakers in any society that are functionally illiterate for whatever reason.

If your definition of native-level is japanese-born-and-raised professor of japanese literature, then yeah, that's a hard target for a non-native to hit. It's also a damn hard target for your average japanese person to hit.

There are people who have learned japanese to the ability to produce native-level novels, which not many japanese people can do(or maybe not willing to do?). But the fact that they got there, proves that it's indeed possible. All it takes is time and dedication.