aphasiac Wrote:Not really - there are tens of thousands of native English speakers working in Japan as English teachers.

A few thousand is nothing if you look at the total population of Japan. In many European countries almost everyone speaks decent enough English to be able to use it in their jobs.

Quote:Well, they are. Far more English speakers are working in Japan doing business related jobs compared to people teaching English

Do you have any source for that? In my personal experience most foreigners in Japan ARE teaching English, and their Japanese is not on JLPT1 level either.

ThomasB Wrote:Do you have any source for that? In my personal experience most foreigners in Japan ARE teaching English, and their Japanese is not on JLPT1 level either.

Well to start there are over 50,000 US citizens living in Japan. This does not include people working on bases.

How many people teach English, 10,000 or so?

You can add on the rest of the people from English speaking countries and other people who speak English and you can see that the vast majority of English speaking foreigners living here in Japan are not teaching English at all.

http://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/nenkan/1431-02.htm

See -Foreigners Who Entered Japan by Status of Residence(Excel:24KB)-

Just look at North Americans entering by visa in 2008

3,000 professors, 11,000 instructors,

3,500 diplomats, 4,500 officials, 2,200 missionaries, 9,000 investors and business managers, 600 lawyers, 10 doctors, 400 researchers, 19,000 specialists in humanities (who might be teaching), 10,500 company transfers, 8,000 entertainers, 1,000 skilled laborers, 700 cultural activities, 18,000 permanent residents

So yea, basically there are a whole lot more jobs in business than teaching.

Tzadeck Wrote:

kitakitsune Wrote:Speaking as well as a Japanese 15 year old? No way, not even close.

Yeah, haha. The sad thing is that even among those of us who will study seriously for many years, very few of us will ever be as good as a Japanese 15 year old.

Maybe those who don't make it will never put in enough time and effort?

Just curious, but do other countries encourage students to study multiple degrees simultaneously like here in NZ?

kitakitsune Wrote:Just look at North Americans entering by visa in 2008

3,000 professors, 11,000 instructors,

3,500 diplomats, 4,500 officials, 2,200 missionaries, 9,000 investors and business managers, 600 lawyers, 10 doctors, 400 researchers, 19,000 specialists in humanities (who might be teaching), 10,500 company transfers, 8,000 entertainers, 1,000 skilled laborers, 700 cultural activities, 18,000 permanent residents

So yea, basically there are a whole lot more jobs in business than teaching.

Notice something? Apart from company transfers, cultural activities (JET?) and permanent residents (marriage?) all of those roles require specialist skills, i.e. you'll likely need a degree in a specific field.

Soo to get into Japan - get a REAL degree, get married or find a company in your home country that has branches in Japan and will transfer you.

kitakitsune Wrote:Just look at North Americans entering by visa in 2008

3,000 professors, 11,000 instructors,

3,500 diplomats, 4,500 officials, 2,200 missionaries, 9,000 investors and business managers, 600 lawyers, 10 doctors, 400 researchers, 19,000 specialists in humanities (who might be teaching), 10,500 company transfers, 8,000 entertainers, 1,000 skilled laborers, 700 cultural activities, 18,000 permanent residents

So yea, basically there are a whole lot more jobs in business than teaching.

Thanks for the data, it's interesting.

As far as I can see the majority of people is still teaching though. If you add together instructors (10k), majority of humanities (19k) and a lot of the permanent residents (18k) you'll get quite a large number.

Also, I don't think entertainers count towards business. Intracompany transfer do neither, since they do not get a job with a company in Japan, they simply spend some time in Japan because their business in the home country makes them do that. 1000 Skilled laborers, I have no idea what they are doing. Diplomats, officials and missionaries do not count towards "business" either. The only real business-related number I see here is "9,000 investors and business managers" and a part of the permanent residents. Also, the data is for people *entering* Japan, I doubt that the majority of those 9000 people actually stay in Japan for an extended period of time.

Again, in my personal experinece, out of all the foreign people in Japan I have met, the majority seems to be teaching. I have never met anyone in "business". That is, business with a company in Japan. Home-country transfers excluded.

We can't tell exactly what they are doing but you can see that the vast majority of North Americans coming to work in Japan in 2008 are paying their bills by doing things other than teaching.

15,000 people specifically came to teach
85,000 people came doing other work

If you haven't met anyone in Japan who doesn't teach you probably have never lived here before. Amiright?

Quote:We can't tell exactly what they are doing but you can see that the vast majority of North Americans coming to work in Japan in 2008 are paying their bills by doing things other than teaching.

15,000 people specifically came to teach
85,000 people came doing other work

Not quite, the data you provided shows statistics about people *entering* Japan, not people *residing* in Japan. Executives/Managers may come to Japan to take a look at their Japanese office for a couple of days. Entertainers come to Japan to have a concert/tour. Missionaries/Diplomats come to Japan for a short time for their purpose. These people do not pay their bills by doing that.

I am arguing that most foreign people *residing* in Japan (more than a couple of months) make their living with teaching English, not with business-related jobs. Again, this excludes company-transfers.

Quote:If you haven't met anyone in Japan who doesn't teach you probably live well outside of Tokyo or Osaka or are living in a teacher bubble.

I did not say I have not met *anyone* who does not teach. I said that the majority of foreigners (who are not visiting short-term) seems to be teaching, in Tokyo.

Quote:you probably have never lived here before. Amiright?

You are right that I have not lived there for a long time, but I have stayed in Tokyo for more than 6 months and that is my experience.

Oh, and I doubt that I am living in a teacher bubble since I am not a teacher myself, I am self-employed. Thus, I am not naturally meeting other teachers.

Registered foreigners by Nationality - 2008

Americans - 52,683
Canadians - 11,016
Ireland - 1,060
UK - 17,011
Australia - 10,708
NZ - 3,437

Total - 95,915

Excludes military forces



You really think the majority of them are teaching English?

Remember that there are only 10,000 ALT jobs in all of Japan.

First of all, how exactly are "Registered Foreigners" defined? I am guessing these are people having a 外登証? How do you know that all of these people are actually in Japan and working a regular job? A lot of people may be registered but are overseas. A lot of people may be staying at home taking care of kids. Some people may be going to school. And there is lots of other misc. stuff people could be doing.

Why are there exactly 10,000 ALT jobs in Japan? Don't get me wrong, you might be totally right, I'm just wondering about the source. Even if so, there are Eikaiwas, universities, Dispatch companies (I guess they are for ALTs), and other stuff. ALTs alone don't make up the majority of teachers. A lot of people are also teaching private lessons. All this adds to the numbers.

Your numbers also include company transfers (and JETs?) which I don't really count towards anything.

Even if teachers don't make up the *total* majority of these numbers (actually, they might), I strongly believe that teaching is a much more common profession that any other, especially business.

Surely the gist of the figures is that there are a lot of people teaching english in Japan but there are also a lot of foreigners in other jobs too. Just thinking of other foreigners living near me there are bar owners, translators, shop workers, dive instructors, hotel workers, engineers etc. I live way in the countryside so obviously not too many big company employees but when I lived in Hiroshima there was a much bigger range.

I'm not denying that there are lots of foreigners doing other things. But I believe that teaching English is the most common profession and what I originally didn't agree with was:

Quote:Far more English speakers are working in Japan doing business related jobs compared to people teaching English.

I still don't think this is right.

ALTs make up the majority of teachers in Japan. By a big shot too.

You have about 10,000 of them plus university professors and eikaiwa teachers (whose industry completely collapsed recently, twice).

I'm just pointing out there are 100,000 English speakers living here and only about 15,000 teaching jobs to go around.

aphasiac Wrote:In Europe if you study Japanese at university, you will leave with no other skills except being able to speak Japanese.

The modern Japanese language is only a part of what you learn in "Japanese studies" at a European university. You might want to check the curricula of some universities, especially for the master's degree.

Hashiriya Wrote:Well to put it plain and simple, you could study for 4 years+ in college and take Japanese classes which require minimal effort to pass

OK, then don't go to a college with Japanese classes that require minimal effort to pass.

Quote:If you are one of those people who take college courses in Japanese because you are "too lazy to do it on your own". You might as well give up on learning the language all together.

You just advised the 1999 version of me to give up on learning the language all together.

I thought £70 for N1 was a little pricey, but it beats paying £27,000 for N2, I guess.

It always amazes me how otherwise intelligent people throw away time and money to try and learn Japanese at university. I have met several people who studied Japanese four years at university only to arrive in Japan at a lower level than others just having fun here for a year having never attended a class :/

yudantaiteki Wrote:

Hashiriya Wrote:Well to put it plain and simple, you could study for 4 years+ in college and take Japanese classes which require minimal effort to pass

OK, then don't go to a college with Japanese classes that require minimal effort to pass.

Quote:If you are one of those people who take college courses in Japanese because you are "too lazy to do it on your own". You might as well give up on learning the language all together.

You just advised the 1999 version of me to give up on learning the language all together.

I just know a lot of people who get into Japanese thinking that if they take classes the teachers will just hold their hand and guide them until they are "fluent".

Btw, all Japanese classes require only minimal effort.

Hashiriya Wrote:Btw, all Japanese classes require only minimal effort.

Hahaha. Now you're just joking or trolling.

I study Japanese at university... well when I say study at university what I mean is.. at my English university (on exchange atm in Japan.. so it's different) I get 2 hours of class a week.. and then I'm expected to study on my own. So basically, I'm going to get a degree for more or less self studying anyway. (well Languages is 1/3 of my degree marks)

Some people are more comfortable in classes learning like they did in school. Some times they suck... ie..

CarolinaCG Wrote:I'm minoring in japanese, but my course pretty much sucks. In 3 years we'll finish both Minna no nihongo. It's the only accredited university course where I live (there are only 2, lol).

Wow... 3 years for only that? That's barely covering all of JLPT4

Sometimes classes are good.. I'd say my classes here in Japan have been really beneficial to me, especially listening. I understand soo much more than I did in conversation, I might not catch everything but I generally know what's going on at least. I'm a slacker though, I should be much better than I am.
I don't get the "you can pass with minimal effort" schtick.. no one's discussing passing the damned course.. people are discussing learning Japanese. I'd imagine most people on this board aren't going to be aiming for barely passing. Any class time, should be supplimented with self study anyway... your interested in a subject. Why restrict your interest to timetable hours?

Self studying is difficult if people don't know what to do, what to look where, where to start. Keeping up the motivation etc Just because someone takes classes, doesn't mean it's inefficient. Everyone learns differently. I learn much better hearing a word used by my friends and asking the meaning than I ever will looking at a list of words over and over, just the way my brain works. If classes help someone, I see no harm at all.

Don't get me wrong, one of my japanese teachers is a really good teacher, cares for the students, motivates, helps, and teaches more than she supposed.

We only reach that level (not me though, I was around that level one year ago) because some student who don't like japanese started complaining about that teacher and bosses from the department (chinese) started repressing the japanese classes (seriously). Now japanese becomes optional on the 3rd year, and the japanese teachers must teach even more slowly.

After the bachelors (one more year) I'll try to go to japan study japanese or something else (don't know what) and if I can't I'll do a masters in other field combining it with japanese and chinese skills.

bodhisamaya Wrote:It always amazes me how otherwise intelligent people throw away time and money to try and learn Japanese at university. I have met several people who studied Japanese four years at university only to arrive in Japan at a lower level than others just having fun here for a year having never attended a class :/

There are lots of people who don't believe in themselves and that they can achieve or do something by themselves.

This is the reason why they (think they) need a teacher and formal education.

Or

They think that formal education is the best when it comes to languages.

Irixmark Wrote:But I have friends who studied at Berkeley and UBC, both with big and prestigious Japanese language programs, and they were much closer to fluency when they graduated.

I think it REALLY depends on the person. I actually went to Berkeley (not for Japanese) and I know that the core curriculum there ends around JLPT N2. You are welcome to study more and take higher classes but you are not required to. I don't think any university will bring you to a level above N2 without you putting in extra effort/time which is not strictly required for the degree.

But I agree. If you only spend 1 year living in Japan and studying by yourself you can probably achieve more than if you had studied for 4 years at university. Therefore I don't recommend pure language majors since you'll be stuck with no particular skills that other people don't have.

I think sometimes these questions get confused, and differences ignored, partly because of the extremely strong prejudice towards Japanese teachers and classes that usually shows up on forums like this. As to that, it's just as silly to say "all classes are easy and useless and all Japanese teachers incompetent" as it is to say "Anyone studying RTK will never learn Japanese because it's just English keywords."

The initial question of the thread, how RTK learners stack up to a university student, is impossible to answer, as I said:

Quote:But as has been pointed out, there's no way to compare since every program and every learner is different. There are people who finish our 4 year program and end up with very little functional Japanese ability, because they didn't study that much and scraped by with C's. On the other hand, there are other dedicated students who reach surprising levels of ability just with the 4-5 years of our program, because they study a lot and do a lot outside of class as well.

The wider question of "should you take Japanese classes at a university" is also impossible to answer because it depends on a lot of things -- your goals, your financial situation, what type of college you're going to, how good the program is, etc. It also depends on your personal level of motivation. There's a stigma that shows up a lot on this forum that if you're not 150% dedicated to Japanese, you might as well quit. But this isn't true for a lot of people. I needed the external pressure of classes to motivate me through the initial stages where I found it hard to get external motivation. Some people may not need this, but others do.

There are other benefits to university classes as well. You can avail yourself more easily of study abroad programs. Depending on the college they may have resources to help you get post-college opportunities. The degree you get can enable you to get opportunities in Japan (even just English teachings ones). You can make friends and connections. Not everything is about the level of JLPT you pass or the number of kanji you can claim to have studied.

I'm certainly not saying that everyone should go study Japanese at a university. It's not a good choice for some people. But for others it works quite well.