What do you guys think about the commercialization of the AJATT's site?


I'm on the viewpoint that the method is much better approached from an individual perspective and that especially the new package is kind of steep. Much better spent on other things. Maybe Khatz want to quit the 9 to 5 and has realized how discriminatory the Japanese workplace can be by now. Just my opinion. How about you guys?

So basically it's.... RevTK, but costs money. ;p

I didn't care all too much about the storybook, movie etc.
However I'm not sure if cutting back on stuff that should be available for everybody (such as commenting on blog entries) is really necessary. Well.. I just hope he'll change his mind about this one.

As much time as he's put into that blog, and as much encouragement as he's given to so many language learners, I hope he makes a ton of money.

I think it's a good idea for him to make money off of this, the motivation he has given over the years shouldn't go unrewarded.

But I just can't see this model doing well. It's just far too expensive for what it's supposed to offer, and who knows if the community will even work out. He should explore other options.

Frankly, I get really sick of reading his things. Yes, I realize the influence he's had, how much work he puts into things, how many people he's inspired, yada yada yada.

But the posts he writes? I get sick of reading his stuff just the way it is, let alone if I had to pay for it. He rambles a lot, and a lot of times I get to the end of a post thinking "so what exactly did I learn from this....?"
Definitely not something that I would want to pay for.

If he were to do something along the lines of xkcd, I'm sure he could make a lot more money. Over at xkcd, he took all the comics, which are freely available on the website, and compiled them into a book, and sold them. First edition sold out incredibly fast.
If Khatz were to do something like that, perhaps I would support it.

edit: I sound like I'm contradicting myself.
What I mean is:
I wouldn't mind buying a book for something he already put effort into.
The difference is that I'm paying for a "premium subscription." I've been given a chance to see what he's all about (like a "trial edition"), and I'm not convinced that his sort of writing (etc, *zomg FORUMS!*) is worth $80/yr

kendo99 Wrote:As much time as he's put into that blog, and as much encouragement as he's given to so many language learners, I hope he makes a ton of money.

It's a nice way to think kendo, but it comes down to falsely representing himself. AJATT used to represent a free place for motivation and tips of following a study method. Not only has AJATT been usurped by RevTK, even before this latest commercial move. But now that AJATT is changing its entire image I believe RevTK has definitely become by far the best place for advice on the method that Khatz may have popularized but was never even his own method to begin with. The fact is, the majority of the people who frequent that AJATT were attracted by the free abundant information available there and the seemingly nonthreatening noncommercial environment of it all. But now I think AJATT's creator Khatz is hoping that his ability to persuade enough people that his blog deserves some of their money to show their appreciation is running short. I mean how much stuff does one really have to buy in order to show their appreciation, his previous products have all imo not been that great and not really provided anything or any information that we can not get for free here or elsewhere on the internet.

But now we must show our appreciation monthly to join a forum, and at a steep price especially considering the fanbase is likely young and not necessarily able to afford it at the moment. I think what Khatzumoto is trying to do is good for himself but I would have much rather have seen him start a new venture rather than commercialize and change the personality of AJATT. Bad move hands down and imo we here at Revtk are a vibrant and overall intelligent and we donate to keep out community going, and not to fatten someone's bank account so that later he may be ready for other business ventures as is probably Khatz idea. So therefore hes asking us to contribute more to him than to our own studies, and our own interests, imo 100 people sign up for one year lets say, and that's like almost 10k, is that really about providing a service? I think it's far more unbalanced and one sided than providing an honest service, worship the idol and give him your gold and he shall let you post comments on his blessed blog. haha, Anyways just my op. AJATT has been removed from bookmarks, and likely will never see a return.

It's cool that he inspired people but turns out, from talking to a lot of people who were inspired by him and actually learned a lot of Japanese, that most people who actually are successful are so because they changed "AJATT" and did their own thing.

I feel sorry for the people who pay him and then just follow his guidelines because fact is, most of them won't get anywhere.

For some reason today I was able to view a lot of the ajatt plus site. The forum already had eighteen members... so I am assuming 18 people had just gone BANG credit card "I'm in!".

I think it's cool... the best part of Khatz's site is that he teaches you how to teach yourself, but once you get going and know where you are headed you don't really need it anymore.

Yes, I have strayed from the method considerably and finally getting to a very respectable reading level in not only japanese but also chinese.

I guess he's got the right to do whatever he wants with his creation, but I feel like it really has changed from it's original agenda. It's kinda unfortunate that potentially many people will get pulled into the commercialized AJATT when they could do a little more homework (or ok - maybe A LOT LOL like many here have done) and find a better (imop) personalized method with all the benefits of a huge community/collective effort (This site is THE SHIT!). But not everyone wants to put in that kind of effort (although with some of the consolidated resources/threads here it is probably easier then ever before to get going on a pretty effective self study path). I must say, I found this site via the AJATT blog, and have gotten much better information here (and keep coming back). I really don't go to AJATT anymore (I think many here might say the same).

Perhaps it's akin to human nature -> some will follow a guru seeking a path to some kind of higher communion (and a few will take the teachings/methods they have learned from others, repackage and sell them to new seekers ->try become new gurus LOL). "Tell me what to do o' enlightened one!"- That's never been for me, it just feels too limited. I like to try many paths, and learn from many teachers (RVTK!). Sometimes AJATT feels a bit like dogma (LOL).

Goofy analogy aside, I'm not trying to be condescending. AJATT has had a positive impact on many people, myself included, so I have a measure of respect for what Khatz has done, and if he wants to market his stuff he has my blessings.

Somehow, it offends me on a base level.

But then I kick my brain into gear and realize he can do -whatever- he wants. It's his site, and he's put a TON of effort into building the mindshare that he's got now. If people want to pay to get a little more, let them.

I'm not going to, and nobody is strong-arming you into it, either.

As far as the concept that people are paying so they can be lazy... Well duh. That's what RTK is, too. And every other book out there. There's nothing in them that you couldn't do yourself after just hearing the concept.

However, it'd be a lot more work and you're better off spending that time earning the $20-100 for the product than the time it would take you to recreate the product on your own.

I don't know if the AJATT products are worth the money. Khatz is very vocal about how much they suck in every post he makes about them. And yet, I'm still tempted to throw him some money and find out.

Wccrawford, liked what you said except for the part of recreating the product? What's that about? I think everyone's just saying that it is not the only product on the market out there for that method, and imo there is one right here on this site that provides a lot more than AJATT and for free.

I'm in the "if he wants people to pay, more power to him" camp. As wccrawford said, no-one's forcing you to buy what he's selling. And insofar as I can see, he's not restricting access to the original articles/posts/directions, but creating new content at a cost(?). Hence, anyone who needs a hit of motivation should still be able to get it for free.

In terms of the new content, I personally can't see any value in it at my learning level. In the last few months, Japanese has really started to 'click' for me, and my confidence has grown enough that I don't need a boost from Khatz anymore (when I started about 15 months ago, I was on his site almost daily). The forums over here provide more support, have more contributors with far more experience (including some native speakers), and have more of a collaborative/community feel to them. (In saying that, I've been lurking around here a lot less, too, since my learning pace started to accelerate.) If the contributors on Khatz's posts are anything to go by, his forums will be more "Khatzumotoさま, tell me what to do!" than "guys, I've been trying something new for a while which is working really well, and I wanted to share it with you".

But yeah, Khatz has provided lots of people with a lot of confidence and motivation, so if he wants to sell a product (of sorts), that's his business. If people want to part with their (probably) hard-earned money to access it, that's their business. I won't be jumping on the bandwagon, though.

Yonosa Wrote:Wccrawford, liked what you said except for the part of recreating the product? What's that about? I think everyone's just saying that it is not the only product on the market out there for that method, and imo there is one right here on this site that provides a lot more than AJATT and for free.

Anything is a product. RTK, Genki, Smart.fm, everything, regardless of cost. If I wanted to spend enough time, I could recreate any of those for free. (Obviously the content won't be identical, but that doesn't actually matter.) If people want to create their own study content, they are free to. In fact, that's what Khatz has recommended all along. Now he's just providing a way to shortcut that for money. You end up with the content without doing the work, but you spend money. Khatz product is not really different than finding your own sentences and SRS'ing them. Or in the case of his new forum, it's no different than any other forum, really, except that it's an elite section of the net. You could create that, too, if you were inclined.

Whether or not Khatz's products are worth their cost is a personal decision. There are no absolutes. Let's not forget that the value of the product isn't just in the factual information, either. Khatz has a cult following and that makes his followers fanatical about everything they buy into. That means they have external motivation that they won't get from another product.

Personally, I always found this place a lot more inspiring than reading articles that rant on and on about the same thing.
I thought learning a language was supposed to be about surrounding yourself in the language and having fun, but obviously 99% of students didn't realize that and had to be told! I really don't get why people love him so much...

I think this commercialization is kind of like Kanji learning. If you learn all heisig kanji, the kanji you already know make 98% of the kanji you encounter when reading wikipedia.

You learned those 98% already, and now it´s up to you to decide whether you wanna study those much less important 2%.

What I wanna say is, the most important stuff HE had to say, you probably already know. The leftover is just some stuff with MUCH less shocking & much less astonishing content.

I think you´ll get much more astonishing knowledge by reading what other smart people/sources have to say, as every person has a limit to saying life-changing stuff.

Imagine the 5 best ideas he´s said - I dont think he will say anything on the same level in the near future. And if he will, you´ll most probably hear of it too.

Btw this got me laughing :

"you get a free advance copy of the next AJATT product: AJATT.talk — a spoken-word “conversation album” featuring me, the Khatzumoto, and my wild friends here on the rough, tough, rather clean and flower-lined streets of suburban Japan, talking about all kinds of cool, random topics (and even, at one point, going to the dentist). All real. All unscripted. And all in Japanese, with English synopses of track contents."

Wow, I want it!!!:xD

Imagine you would take a camera along and shoot your ordinary day with your friends and kind of sell it, or present it as something special

I guess his ideas should be taken as influence. And they should be used as examples of how to think out of the box, and move on in some new, more effective direction.

But I totally support his commercialization. If he loves to do what he´s doing, then why shouldn´t he try making a living by doing what he really likes to do. After all his efforts, I dont think he should be doing some boring work just for the money.

Although can´t really talk about what his intentions really are... I can only hope he loves messing with AJATT.=)

While I don't really think selling products or knowledge is a bad thing, I wonder why he has become the very thing which he reacted against in the beginning i.e., a person with knowledge who then compiles that knowledge into a book or some kind of content and then tries to get people to follow the exact same path as he did to achieve the same level of fluency he has by paying money. It seems like he railed classes and other types of programs developed to help others find "the way" while he was preaching a more self-reliant type of study habit. I just want to know why the change.

Out of interest, if someone is willing to pay any of you 30 to 80 dollars for each hour worth of consulting or effort would you accept it?

Setting up their Anki, setting up their subs2srs, setting up their study schedule, reviewing their progress, demonstrating how to use common references, setting up a VLC player for kanji subtitles, etc.

Very similar to the analogy for reasons to buy a book. The above takes EFFORT. That EFFORT can bring a premium price if it's backed by knowledge and experience that'll take time to gather on one's own.

People don't normally go to college with the intention of giving away the benefits of their training for free. They expect a salary. Likewise many here have gathered (or already have) a wealth of knowledge and experience that surpasses what would be found at the average college. Is it shocking some will be willing to be paid for to utilize it?

PS: I don't think it's worth paying for AJATTlus seeing what all is already available for free, however at least the forum will be free of tourists.

If Khatz is smart (and he is), he'd translate his older articles and repost them once per week under a Japanese blog theme (Like, AEATT). This will attract Japanese that are learning English. And I think Japanese people can appreciate Khatz's level of Japanese more so than those learning Japanese could ie easier to accept the merits of the advice.

I think there are more Japanese people wanting to learn English and are willing to pay for what they think is premium advice.

Quote:then tries to get people to follow the exact same path as he did to achieve the same level of fluency he has by paying money. It seems like he railed classes and other types of programs developed to help others find "the way" while he was preaching a more self-reliant type of study habit. I just want to know why the change.

I don't see where he is trying to get people to follow the "exact same path"... I mean, it was just a little over a month ago he put up a whole post of basically saying, don't ask me about the details, work all those out on your own, don't just blindly follow my advice, etc. He constantly encourages experimenting, and he liked one of my experiments so much he started using it and promoting it.

The main product he is selling, is two of his articles in Japanese per month, along with Sentence Packs from those articles to make SRSing what you don't know quick and easy. If you really enjoy reading his articles (I do, I like his sense of humor a lot, and I usually get a new perspective on something) and you are at a level to benefit from reading/working through them if they were written in Japanese, he's giving you that option, for a price. Now, would that money be better spent on a couple manga or a DVD? Well, as far as learning Japanese, probably, because it is by native for native. But, if AJATT is something you personally enjoy, and your income is not so limited that this would preclude you from buying other sources, then it could be well worth the money. The forums, etc. is pretty much fluff. But, if he is going to offer the forums as a benefit, he DOES have to cut the comments on the blog, to ensure that he isn't giving everyone else for free what other folks are paying for. That wouldn't be fair to the subscribers.

I disagree that he has to cut the comments on the blog. The subscribers know what they are getting into and it's up to -them- to determine if they want to pay for it or not. The fact that they could get it for free should be part of their decision, not his.

well...they can still get it for free...over here, as essentially every post he makes that discusses any new idea, method, etc ends up with at least one thread over here. And probably on a dozen other message boards/forums/blogs/etc about learning japanese. But if your providing a premium service, and charging for it, it seems pretty unethical to me to also offer essentially the same service for free to everyone else, even with full disclosure.

kendo99 Wrote:well...they can still get it for free...over here, as essentially every post he makes that discusses any new idea, method, etc ends up with at least one thread over here. And probably on a dozen other message boards/forums/blogs/etc about learning japanese. But if your providing a premium service, and charging for it, it seems pretty unethical to me to also offer essentially the same service for free to everyone else, even with full disclosure.

Open Source does it all the time. You can order an Ubuntu CD and pay the money, or download it for free. There's absolutely nothing unethical about charging for something that can be gotten for free. And if you've fully disclosed the possibilities, there's no reason to even get in a huff about it. Nobody can be cheated, swindled, misdirected or scammed that way. They made their own decision.

And knowing that, at least 19 people have apparently already done it. (Someone above said there were 18 people before them in the forum.)

kendo99 Wrote:The main product he is selling, is two of his articles in Japanese per month, along with Sentence Packs from those articles to make SRSing what you don't know quick and easy.

2 articles in Japanese, with Khatz's own personal version of what SRS cards should be.

AJATT Wrote:Monthly subscription
$9.95/month
(33¢ per day)

That's roughly $5 per article. An article!!
Anyone who's at least semi-familiar with the basic idea of sentence mining can go and pick up a magazine which is FULL of articles for less than $5.

If someone really think his sense of humor is that good, then they are welcome to spend their money. I'd rather stay away.

Asriel...cool. I think I said that right beneath the quoted text. The money would probably be better spent on a couple manga or a DVD a month. But, I'm sure there are plenty of people for whom $10 a month just isn't a big deal (not me right now, btw, I'm broke) and they'd like to have this... Maybe it's overpriced on the one hand. On the other, a normal magazine has a much wider circulation base, so they can make more per labor/hour while charging less for the magazine. I'm actually pretty much a pinko commie socialist for the most part, but the thing I DO love about capitalism is that people have the freedom to spend their money (when they have it) or not, on what they choose. But, anyways, I'm just killing time right now waiting on someone lol, I don't really have a dog in this fight...

EDIT: Good point wccrawford, on the other hand, I don't see anything wrong with increasing the perceived value of the product by not making it available in a free form.