I wasn't sure where to post this, but I was wondering how I can change the flashcards on the site to show the kanji then I produce the English? In the past I've been avoiding this site because when I do English -> write the kanji I have to be in an awkward position in front of my computer, when I could be doing it more comfortably with the flashcards I already have made... But I would really like to use this site more often. To be able to see my progress etc. and of course come by the forums more..

You're technically not supposed to do it like that. If you do English -> Kanji, then the Kanji->English is supposed to come naturally.

While this works differently for everyone, Heisig says in his book that you shouldn't be going in that direction, so this site doesn't have that functionality.
If you insisted on it, however, you could download the RtK deck for Anki and do whatever you want with it.

Yeah, I read that part. But what gets me is that people say things like, you can just write it once and be done with it. Or that the writing isn't as important... But I want to be able to do both... I just really hate having to write at my comp, and "visualizing" the kanji isn't enough for me, because I want to be good at writing it..and it's how I remember them better. Visualizing isn't at all the same as actually doing it.

Even in the book, I remember him saying you should sit down with a pen/paper (pencil w/e) but it seemed like it was more just to get the feel of the writing? Then this flashcard site basically requires you to write it down many many times? Which I have no problem with, it just seems contradictory to what I've read/heard.

If you've ever taken a psychology class it's like top-down vs bottom-up processing. So I try to learn it both ways.

Well, maybe I'm the only one who learns best like this lol oh well :p I guess I'll just leave, thank you anyways ^_^ I'm fine with just using my flashcards.

I also recommend against doing kanji to keyword, but we've already had plenty of conversations about it, if you prefer it and it works for you, have at it. What you want is the kanji to keyword script: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?pid=5289#pid5289

Specifically here: http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/8976

Many of us do and recommend our own methods on the forum, including writing the kanji just once or twice (I recommend this repeatedly as I'm all about the muscle memory) to get a feel, or not bothering to at all, or just tracing it in your mind or the air, or focusing more on it for handwriting. Very few here, that I've seen, recommend writing it over and over. I find it an overreaction that you seem to indicate wanting to 'just leave' because someone might suggest that on the forum.

At any rate, depending on your setup, I don't see how writing at your computer vs. elsewhere is any different, seems like it'd be easier, to me, because it just takes keyboard shortcuts/mouse to flip and grade cards here, plus you get the spaced repetition benefit. I always do reviews, in Anki and when I used this site to finish RTK, with pencil and paper before me, headphones on, etc.

Bonus ramble: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...2#pid79902
Bonus thread on same topic: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...4#pid58744

I do write the kanji, because for me, it is the only way to know for sure that I actually know it; that I haven't missed out any strokes or anything. I write it when reviewing no more. The keyword comes up and I write the kanji once on a piece of grid paper. If I fail it, I write the kanji correctly before pressing F for fail, then it comes up again in the restudy and I write it once again when reviewing that. That's it.

I think everyone has their own way of doing it. My method works best for me, but it might not work at all for someone else. Their method might not work for me, etc.

I am honestly curious on why you guys in general discourage Kanji->Keywords?

I've been doing Keyword->Kanji by reading the frame in the book, write it down once, maybe twice if its a tough frame. Then after I've completed a chapter, I wait for a while then go do the same on the computer and go through the Keywords->Kanji deck and write down every new Kanji down at-least once before I grade myself, and if I fail, I will then write down the proper form and then fail that card.

Anyway I've also been doing Kanji->Keywords so I can improve on my ability to "read" the Kanji, yet it seems that it is discouraged.... Why?


[Edit:] Aha I've been reading the linked thread in regards of the Kanji->Keyword, and it seems to explain it a bit better, but doing that would it destroy my learning? I find it kind of does help me to firm up my remembering of the mapping between Kanji & Keywords...

I also seem to be able to go through the Kanji->Keyword deck at up to 100+ Kanji per 10 minute chunk, while if I'm doing the Keyword->Kanji deck, it tends to max at about 30-40 Kanji per 10 minute chunk because I'm spending more time writing down the Kanji's to firm up my handwriting skill here.

Kanji -> keyword is a bad idea, or actually, is sort of impossible to do without context. A kanji doesn't have a single meaning, for example 日 can mean sun or day, and on its own already has 3 readings (ひ、にち、か).
I shouldn't worry about reading just yet anyways, after finishing RTK you will be doing just that, kanji to either kana with Japanese definitions or kana with english translations. However then you will have context, so stuff will make sense.

It's more important to get familiar with the kanji during RTK in my opinion. Keyword->Kanji forces you to recreate the kanji from memory, which lets the kanji stick a lot better than just pure recognition of the kanji. As a plus it also increases your writing skills on the side, though with the digital age and all that isn't as needed of a skill as it used to be, though still useful to be trained in.

lol :p I meant to just drop the topic because I don't want to start a debate about what's the right way to study. Everyone learns different, and I know it's NOT recommended to go from kanji -> English.

When I study, I'll write the kanji from memory and focus on the pieces that bring it together, so it's like I do English->kanji and kanji->English at the same time. But I try to learn different meanings, only a few, because it also helps with my stories. Some are more memorable with a meaning not stated in the book. Hmm, maybe that won't make sense/seems wrong, but it works for me.

And yes, I'm the same with the "muscle memory" part, but I also try to focus on handwriting. So when I'm at a computer w/notebook it's awkward and difficult to have good writing (for me) I'm fine with scratching down notes for class that way, but for kanji I want it to look good. For some reason when writing kanji it forces me to have good posture :p so I'd rather sit at a table with good lighting then in my somewhat dark room & lazy computer chair.

thank you ruiner for that script, I'll definitely check it out. And Rekkusu, your post was very useful/clear. ^^

Rekkusu Wrote:Kanji -> keyword is a bad idea, or actually, is sort of impossible to do without context. A kanji doesn't have a single meaning, for example 日 can mean sun or day, and on its own already has 3 readings (ひ、にち、か).
I shouldn't worry about reading just yet anyways, after finishing RTK you will be doing just that, kanji to either kana with Japanese definitions or kana with english translations. However then you will have context, so stuff will make sense.

It's more important to get familiar with the kanji during RTK in my opinion. Keyword->Kanji forces you to recreate the kanji from memory, which lets the kanji stick a lot better than just pure recognition of the kanji. As a plus it also increases your writing skills on the side, though with the digital age and all that isn't as needed of a skill as it used to be, though still useful to be trained in.

Alright so I suppose I should get rid of the Kanji->Keywords and focus mainly on the Keyword->Kanji... I just ended up doing Kanji->Keywords because I was doing the same with my Kana<->Romaji, but I suppose in that case its more of a 1:1 matching in that situation...

I've been doing Keywords->Kanji all of this time, I just was also doing the Kanji->Keywords on the side

So I guess in the end I will still end up doing Kanji->whatever latter on when I start working on the readings and etc but eh? So I guess I'll go ahead and drop the Kanji->Keywords

Exactly, drop the kanji->keyword reps and focus on the keyword->kanji reps. Learn more kanji instead if you have time over, though don't overdo it

kanji->keywords won't really let you learn too much, and might even hamper your learning actually, due to the different meanings and readings kanji have. It's also a bad habit to keep translating stuff in English or your native language, since this will slow you down and might even lead to badly constructed sentences (like literally translating an English expression to Japanese). This is difficult at first, and something you shouldn't worry too much about during kanji learning however, though. Worry about that once you reach the sentence stage

@xAyakox - Yes, I forgot to mention, of course it's possible your computer/desk set-up makes it difficult for writing in front of it. I have plenty of space and lighting, myself, so. My handwriting is quite good, thanks to constantly doing Anki/RevtK reviews with muscle memory-focus. More of a side-effect, in my case.

Bonus rambles (rambles within rambles within rambles, Dune-style): http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...3#pid92273

Thought I'd inject a little controversy... Here's khatz on Lazy Kanji Cards...

Be aware he does say: "I’ve been doing it for about two weeks. I have no long-term data. I may be completely off base. Or it may be that this method is valid, but only once one has learned to memorize/decompose kanji in a more traditional Heisig style."

In the comments, I actually state that I don't think someone who hasn't done RTK1 will have the most success using this format, in other words, I think what he says in the quote that is in italics is probably right, but it IS an interesting idea, and he offers some good arguements for why he believes it might be useful. Personally, I've found my groove, I'm done experimenting and ready to just keep making steady progress until I'm done with this damn book, but I may well give it a try when I start using smart.fm and doing sentences in anki, with a seperate "new kanji" deck or something...

Kanji to concept cards (recognition) are not new. It's been tried and discussed before. The usual consensus from those that do it like myself is to do it in conjunction with production cards. Even the part about removing English has been discussed via the Japanese keyword thread.

The deck I put up on Anki tries this set up already, though it's limited to what was available in the spreadsheet.

Q:
Kanji

A:
Keyword (Heisig)
Concepts (from Khatsuo's spreadsheet)
Yomi (Onyomi only, and Kunyomi words)

What I would really like is a column of the top 3 Onyomi and Kunyomi (via frequency) words to put under the kanji to add a bit more context. I'd prefer these to just the yomi as those that continue RTK during Japanese studies benefit better by seeing words using the kanji and could care two licks about the English concept anymore on a solitary onyomi on its own is hard to figure out.

If it helps, one can just set a card as "Leech" if you're failing it too much. Don't suspend or delete a leech RTK card though. What I do is put "(L)" beside a leech Kanji or leech Keyword (depending on the card I'm missing). For those cards only, if I get them wrong I just grade them as hard from there on out. In other words these cards become "Spaced Reminder" cards instead of "Spaced Remembrance" cards. A good leech threshold can be 6 to 8.

Nuke, that is a great idea for the time-leech kanji cards... I just topped 700 yesterday, and have maybe ten cards in my deck that I fail pretty much every time they come up. I'll remember to try turning them into "spaced reminders" from here on out, then when I finish, I can search the cards marked leech and put a little extra effort into solidifying them instead of constantly failing them, "learning" them, moving them a few days out, then failing them again and starting over...

And I know kanji to concept isn't new, but i thought what he had to say about letting the SRS provide enough repetition over time to just learn how to write them the same way we learn phone numbers, addresses, etc., except spaced enough by the SRS to avoid just rote-drilling them in. But, I do still stand by what I said in reply to him there, that this will only be efficient (effective?) after one has learned enough kanji to reach a certain critical mass, after one's "kanji-magnet" has gotten sticky enough, in other words.

Quote:(from Khatsuo's spreadsheet)

prolific offspring of Khatz and Katsuo?

hmmm...I wonder how these other ones would turn out?
Nest0roth (fearsomely funny?)
Nukelee (highly disciplined creativity?)
gyuucream (chubby?)
Magajin (drunk on reading?) [I sound drunk when I say it out loud]
121217 ???

awesome @ Thora

Thora,

I tend to butcher everyone's moniker here from time to time. Hopefully no one has taken offense. I am a bit disturbed by your, um, list though.

Me too. I mean, what would sweet little Nukelee look like?!

I thought about creating a new account, ruinest0r, but decided not to because I was afraid of what might happen to my personality.