At first when I saw the topic I thought it was another Japan rant and was going to say something like: If Japan was exactly like America or Europe I doubt so many gaijin would want to go there, that Japan bashing's the gaijin equivalent of Paris Syndrome; people have a picture of Japan as a animanga/game/traditional culture paradise and when they get there they see that it, like every county, has flaws and differences, they rant.
But this article was different, it reminded me more of the "So you want to learn Japanese..." article than a serious rant, was it really serious?
Like all great satire it had a hint of truth to it.
I laughed out loud when I got to the Jpop section and the part where store moved everything around so he couldn't find anything.

As for all the rules, I can differently relate, I was talking to this girl who was a exchange student at a Japanese college, and I remember her saying it reminded her of high school,
that their were bells and 1st period, 2nd period and all that, and also that she felt that,
whereas in the US college students are supposed to be adults,
in Japan there was an overwhelming feeling that college students are kids and are treated as such. There were curfews and lots of pointless rules to follow.
I was surprised that still happened at the college level (I had gone abroad in high school, and although I made friends and had fun, I felt a lot of what she said applied to Japanese high schools as well.)
From what FutureBlues said, apparently it goes on through the workplace and throughout their lives.

I have to admit, some things from the article were really spot on.
I remember sitting at a Denny's with some gaijin friends in the non-smoking section,
the smoking section was about three-quarters of the restaurant,
the non smoking section was in the back, surrounded by a thick white wall on three sides, so we felt almost like we were in an isolation chamber or something.
They seemed to serve the smokers first too as well, although the non-smoking section was almost empty so I can't say I blame them.
Also, when I took the Shinkansen and sat in the regular car, because the non-smoking car was full, I almost couldn't breathe it was so bad.

Overall I thought it was a funny article, and I bookmarked it to have a laugh whenI need a break from studying.

the article Wrote:Men in Japan nearly all transit through a phase, in their early twenties, where their favorite hobby is dressing up in their best clothes, standing in the middle of a crowded street with their best mates, and yelling single words at every reasonably attractive girl who walks by. This is the non-Vegas equivalent of playing the nickel slots: The odds are ***** hell of slim, though who knows? You could strike a jackpot ("get laid"). Then you're up to your ears in nickels ("in bed with a girl who probably disrespects you as much as you disrespect her").

This was hilarious.

I agree with a lot of what this guy says, though I don't think he really means most of it. I just think he's going through a sort of a vent phase and happens to have a very public forum. Or at least, he does mean it but not in such an angry, despising tone. Anyways, was an interesting read.

This article didn't really strike me as being satire or humorous. I mean, I guess you could read it that way if you wanted to dismiss it (you know, in a noble way that makes you look like the bigger man, instead of just vehement disagreement).

nest0r Wrote:@Thora - This turned into a fun thread though, eh? More interesting than the Olympics.

huh? Are you...
(a) using stereotypes to point out I'm Canadian?
(b) disapproving of my attendance at Olympic events? (I got to watch Canada win hockey gold!! woohoo!!)
© secretly hoping that cyber sparring and academic name dropping will become medal events? or
(d) still sore that Canada beat USA in sudden death overtime?

@Thora - USA? Canada? I am unfamiliar with such terms. I was e) Implicitly revealing my own bemusement at my inability to summon the slightest interest in the Olympics, to the point that I still have no idea of anything beyond something called 'curling' and a fellow with a 'soul patch' that I stumbled across momentarily by accident.

Also, I only name-drop/reference other thinkers as a polite nod that some inferior yet well-known theorist might have managed to arrive at a conclusion similar to my own, despite their not being me. Also: pfft, cybersparring medals, here? Perhaps when I untie the hand behind my back and remove the kid gloves! You have yet to see my true power unleashed. Mendoukusai the likes of which the Web has never seen. (Assuming J7's reference to this as being used to mean 'wall of text' holds true.)

IceCream Wrote:it's just a matter of what viewpoint you look at things from, in general. personally, i can't ever be bothered to read those types of blogs (didn't even read that one, only this thread). But it's really no big deal, is it. If that's the way he wants to write about Japan, who cares? If he really hates japan a lot, he can leave. Or, someone whose had a bad day can read it and laugh or whatever, then get on with their life.

Sure, yknow, theres things that annoyed me about various places ive been. But mostly, theres always more than one perspective you can take... and that does influence the way you see things, a lot!!! If you want to find good things about a culture, or people in general, of course, that's what your gonna see. If you are feeling negative, you will often see negative things. Some people habitually look for the worst in things, and, inevitably, its what they find.

Take, for example, someone calling you Tim instead of Ｘ－さん... well, you could look at it like it's someone asking for one thing from you and not giving back the same politeness. Or you could assume that this guy thinks that you'll feel more comfortable being called by your first name, because that's what your used to. He knows that he, would, in fact, feel uncomfortable if you called him in a way he wasn't used to, and wants to extend the same kindness. Which way you look at it doesn't really have an influence on the world, only how you feel, so whichever makes you happier is fine.

Or, you could just not give a shit either way, cos it's really not that big a deal. Or, if it really is that big of a deal, you could just do something about it instead and ask to be called Ｘ－さん instead, and then bitch about it later only if they refuse... w/e.

What a pointless reply, IceCream. Read the post. It might in the future empower an otherwise wishy-washy response.

The whole point of that part of his post was that assuming "makes an ass out of u and me." It's not a big deal that someone doesn't apply the correct suffix to your name until they start lecturing you on how you should and shouldn't be saying "Good Morning!" The man lecturing him was a drone and a hypocrite.

Furthermore I think that while there is value in keeping a sunny disposition when it comes to looking at other cultures, I feel like a lot of people give Japanese culture a pass when it comes to common sense and basic human decency just because "Oh, it's Japanese." A lot of stuff that happens here-- the really dumb, pointless stuff, that even Japanese people themselves don't always enjoy or really understand is done because "it's Japanese and that's just how we do it." See the post I made on rules, previous.

As a human being, that appalls me. Being American, European or Canadian-- has nothing to do with it.

And, @Squintox: I feel like you're just trying to pick a fight, but I'm not talking about authority. I'm talking about rules. Rules that say you can't do X, Y, or Z, but provide no valid reason. The same rules that prevent a bakery from making me a sandwich without mayonnaise, or a restaurant from substituting rice for bread. Curfews that make no sense, or prevent students from questioning his teacher's answer. I sit and watch my students copy down word for word what the teacher says, never asking a single question. In fact, I think in three years of teaching I've only ever seen ONE student, in all the hundreds of students who pass through my schools every year ask questions.

If you can honestly tell me, that as a European or an American your teachers or parents never encouraged you to question what you're told and use your own internal reasoning and intuition to make judgments, than I truly feel sorry for you. Japanese people spend the most formative years of their life getting "answers" instead of "asking questions." I think most educated people in Western countries spend far more time asking questions. I did, anyway.

FutureBlues Wrote:I'm talking about rules. Rules that say you can't do X, Y, or Z, but provide no valid reason. The same rules that prevent a bakery from making me a sandwich without mayonnaise, or a restaurant from substituting rice for bread. Curfews that make no sense, or prevent students from questioning his teacher's answer. I sit and watch my students copy down word for word what the teacher says, never asking a single question. In fact, I think in three years of teaching I've only ever seen ONE student, in all the hundreds of students who pass through my schools every year ask questions.

If you can honestly tell me, that as a European or an American your teachers or parents never encouraged you to question what you're told and use your own internal reasoning and intuition to make judgments, than I truly feel sorry for you. Japanese people spend the most formative years of their life getting "answers" instead of "asking questions." I think most educated people in Western countries spend far more time asking questions. I did, anyway.

FutureBlues, I recommend reading this article, which I linked earlier in the thread. The article mentions some of the fundamental differences between thought patterns in Western and Eastern thinking. Here's an excerpt from a part that is especially relevant. It contrasts the external critical thinking common in the West to the internal critical thinking that is widespread in the East:

Quote:Here is another example of Stapleton’s statement that reveals his Western-centric thinking:

“The former reflects a move away from rote-learning towards creative and critical writing...”

Here he implies that the Japanese way of writing is uncreative and uncritical. To be more precise, it should say, “...towards what the West would consider creative and critical.” The focus of Western creativity is generally on breaking of rules, as it is reflected in expressions like “thinking outside the box”. While there is nothing wrong with this, this way of being creative takes the focus away from what the creator learns for himself in the process, and encourages him to break rules for its own sake. The product of creativity becomes more important than what the creator gains from the experience; a typical Logocentrism of the West where product/result is superior to process. Westerners therefore fail to see any creativity in repetition, or “rote”, where no rules are broken. Japanese express their creativity through predetermined forms and rules, as you can see in Haiku. This allows them to focus on the process of being creative, not so much on the product of it. If you focus too much on the unique/original facade of your product, your focus on process is compromised.

As for being “critical”, the Western idea of it is to be critical of others. The Eastern idea of being critical is to be self-critical. This manifests clearly in the number of lawsuits filed in each country. Just because Japanese do not logically criticize others does not mean that they are not being critical. In order to live in harmony with others, they have acquired a natural tendency to be self-critical. Because of this, it is true that they rarely encounter situations that call for dialectical or forensic skills. But this should not be taken as a lack of “critical” thinking.

One Piece is crap. What, are you all 12 year olds?

Also, after living in Japan for a while I can say, half of this article is due to the fact the guy is a wuss, and the other half is spot on.

Also, no matter what excuses you make, until you lived here, you won't know...90% of Japanese people can not think for themselves.

strugglebunny Wrote:One Piece is crap. What, are you all 12 year olds?

Also, after living in Japan for a while I can say, half of this article is due to the fact the guy is a wuss, and the other half is spot on.

Yeah Thora, Futureblues, what are you all, 12????

strugglebunny Wrote:Also, no matter what excuses you make, until you lived here, you won't know...90% of Japanese people can not think for themselves.

@strugglebunny - I don't like One Piece (hate the style), can't make heads or tails of it, but I've read some interesting analyses that describe it as rather complex visually, even 'nxtlvl', as it were.

Also, you can't know till you live where I live, you just can't! But, 95% of the people here can't think for themselves. I have met them all (thus I made the kinds of inferences one can only make by living here), and can tell you this is unique to the area. Most of the people here are sheep, but not elsewhere.

ruiner Wrote:

strugglebunny Wrote:One Piece is crap. What, are you all 12 year olds?

Also, after living in Japan for a while I can say, half of this article is due to the fact the guy is a wuss, and the other half is spot on.

Yeah Thora, Futureblues, what are you all, 12????

strugglebunny Wrote:Also, no matter what excuses you make, until you lived here, you won't know...90% of Japanese people can not think for themselves.

@strugglebunny - I don't like One Piece (hate the style), can't make heads or tails of it, but I've read some interesting analyses that describe it as rather complex visually, even 'nxtlvl', as it were.

Also, you can't know till you live where I live, you just can't! But, 95% of the people here can't think for themselves. I have met them all (thus I made the kinds of inferences one can only make by living here), and can tell you this is unique to the area. Most of the people here are sheep, but not elsewhere.

You caught me. It was a stupid thing to say. I just have a lot of frustration with the people here, basically what Futureblues says is spot on concerning the average (non-Roppongi) mind set. I just get sick of 28 year olds asking their parents if they can hang out for a night...

FutureBlues Wrote:The whole point of that part of his post was that assuming "makes an ass out of u and me." It's not a big deal that someone doesn't apply the correct suffix to your name until they start lecturing you on how you should and shouldn't be saying "Good Morning!" The man lecturing him was a drone and a hypocrite.

Furthermore I think that while there is value in keeping a sunny disposition when it comes to looking at other cultures, I feel like a lot of people give Japanese culture a pass when it comes to common sense and basic human decency just because "Oh, it's Japanese." A lot of stuff that happens here-- the really dumb, pointless stuff, that even Japanese people themselves don't always enjoy or really understand is done because "it's Japanese and that's just how we do it." See the post I made on rules, previous.

As a human being, that appalls me. Being American, European or Canadian-- has nothing to do with it.

And, @Squintox: I feel like you're just trying to pick a fight, but I'm not talking about authority. I'm talking about rules. Rules that say you can't do X, Y, or Z, but provide no valid reason. The same rules that prevent a bakery from making me a sandwich without mayonnaise, or a restaurant from substituting rice for bread. Curfews that make no sense, or prevent students from questioning his teacher's answer. I sit and watch my students copy down word for word what the teacher says, never asking a single question. In fact, I think in three years of teaching I've only ever seen ONE student, in all the hundreds of students who pass through my schools every year ask questions.

If you can honestly tell me, that as a European or an American your teachers or parents never encouraged you to question what you're told and use your own internal reasoning and intuition to make judgments, than I truly feel sorry for you. Japanese people spend the most formative years of their life getting "answers" instead of "asking questions." I think most educated people in Western countries spend far more time asking questions. I did, anyway.

I don't see why you'd assume I'm trying to pick a fight You and I both know we have better things to do. I just thought that you thinking people agreeing with society's rules as being absurd, is absurd.

In your context - you were talking about rules set up by authority. I doubt a Japanese boss would listen to rules or conditions set up by his employee, "I'm not working past 5". So authority, rules, same thing.

People follow those rules because they want to avoid trouble. As for the restaurant examples you listed above, I've never tried asking restaurants for things that weren't on their menus, so I wouldn't know - I don't see why you would do that in the first place, it seems to defeat the whole purpose of a menu. The curfew doesn't have to make sense - if it's set up by the parents, it's within good reasoning.

If Japanese people always tried to look for answers but never asked questions, then they must be pretty terrible at looking for answers. But I'm personally surprised that only one student asked a question, don't you mean you only had one student that asked questions non-stop?

The complaint from teachers I always hate the most is "He gets good grades but he never asks questions" - WTF, if I know what I'm doing, and understand the material well, maybe I don't need to ask questions, or I can figure it out myself?

And I'm not American, European or white Canadian. I'm South Asian. I only lived here for 5 years during my childhood and I'm back now and have been here for the past 9 months or so. My teachers did encourage me to ask questions in an annoying way, as mentioned above. My parents encouraged me to ask questions if I don't understand, not to find reasons not do something (i.e. avoid curfew). I was told rules are rules and only ask questions only if they needed to be asked.

I'm not saying that's anymore correct than the way Westerners go about things. But with a quote like this:

"FutureBlues Wrote:Furthermore I think that while there is value in keeping a sunny disposition when it comes to looking at other cultures, I feel like a lot of people give Japanese culture a pass when it comes to common sense and basic human decency just because "Oh, it's Japanese." A lot of stuff that happens here-- the really dumb, pointless stuff, that even Japanese people themselves don't always enjoy or really understand is done because "it's Japanese and that's just how we do it." See the post I made on rules, previous.

As a human being, that appalls me. Being American, European or Canadian-- has nothing to do with it.

You're getting to ahead of yourself. Japanese culture IS Japanese culture, and it is going to be different. There is no "right" (your way (Western) of doing things) or "wrong" (the rest of the world's way of doing things).

It's not common sense or basic human decency to rebel against authority - this is the way people have lived in the East for at least 10,000 years. Being American/European/Canadian has everything to do with the stuff you said.

vileru Wrote:FutureBlues, I recommend reading this article, which I linked earlier in the thread. The article mentions some of the fundamental differences between thought patterns in Western and Eastern thinking. Here's an excerpt from a part that is especially relevant. It contrasts the external critical thinking common in the West to the internal critical thinking that is widespread in the East:

Quote:Here is another example of Stapleton’s statement that reveals his Western-centric thinking:

“The former reflects a move away from rote-learning towards creative and critical writing...”

Here he implies that the Japanese way of writing is uncreative and uncritical. To be more precise, it should say, “...towards what the West would consider creative and critical.” The focus of Western creativity is generally on breaking of rules, as it is reflected in expressions like “thinking outside the box”. While there is nothing wrong with this, this way of being creative takes the focus away from what the creator learns for himself in the process, and encourages him to break rules for its own sake. The product of creativity becomes more important than what the creator gains from the experience; a typical Logocentrism of the West where product/result is superior to process. Westerners therefore fail to see any creativity in repetition, or “rote”, where no rules are broken. Japanese express their creativity through predetermined forms and rules, as you can see in Haiku. This allows them to focus on the process of being creative, not so much on the product of it. If you focus too much on the unique/original facade of your product, your focus on process is compromised.

So Japanese researchers are the real punks in Japan?

I am just wondering, because I never heard, that they do things that different than Western researchers (please correct me). If asking questions, "thinking outside the box" and such is more uncommon in the Japanese mindset - researchers would have to alienate themselves more from their society than those in the western world. Is that so?

Here's an older article reviewing two books to look at 'science stereotypes' -- I mention it because at least no one here sounds like that moron Hannas, reviewed in the second section of the article. Sorry for my coarse language.

http://www.zcommunications.org/scientifi...drew-dewit

There's more in Vileru's linked article: the author, a Mr Suematsu, is critical of what he considers a simplistic, reductive survey used to determine whether or not Japanese youth are using more Western rhetorical styles:

Quote:In terms of Yin and Yang, the East is passive whereas the West is active. The East, therefore is more feminine, and the West, more masculine. In this sense, understanding the East should be as multidimensional as understanding women, which is not easy for men to do as Jacques Lacan would probably agree.

Imagine a male researcher trying to understand women in which he employs a simplistic questionnaire like Stapleton’s. From a statistical analysis of the results, he draws a conclusion that suggests a new way of treating women. Doesn’t this sound too presumptuous to think that any substantial aspect of women could be understood in such a simplistic manner?

hmm... I suppose overly simplistic presumptuous concepts ought to be avoided, eh? ;-)

Satire? A Japanese Japan Hand?? lol

strugglebunny Wrote:... I just get sick of 28 year olds asking their parents if they can hang out for a night...

lol. So that's where the, shall we say, pent-up 'feelings' come from. That's because everyone* in Japan is a フリーター, they have to respect the parental authorita! Or maybe that's the Japanese equivalent to 'fake-numbering' somebody... ;p

*That is, the 3% of the population that isn't 60 or older.

About the last two paragraphs... uummm....

WTF?

thorstenu Wrote:So Japanese researchers are the real punks in Japan?

I am just wondering, because I never heard, that they do things that different than Western researchers (please correct me). If asking questions, "thinking outside the box" and such is more uncommon in the Japanese mindset - researchers would have to alienate themselves more from their society than those in the western world. Is that so?

The article discusses "thinking outside the box" in relation to creative endeavors (the arts). Nothing is said about how it relates to research, so I can't really say much about it.

@Thora

Yes, what you quoted is a weak point in the article. And in all honesty, I consider the article to be nihonjinron literature since it overgeneralizes the Japanese as one, homogenous people. However, the purpose of linking it was not to evaluate its strengths and weaknesses, but to introduce a different perspective - that a lack of public questioning doesn't mean that no one is being critical.

@vileru - Oh thank goodness, I was too polite to say anything. By the way, has anyone read Harumi Befu? That book Hegemony of Homogeneity looks interesting.

@Squintox: Well you and I obviously have very different backgrounds. I was raised to believe that rules without reason shouldn't be rules at all and that you know, people could get together and change those rules for the benefit of everyone. While I personally don't really feel like this is a cultural value, specifically, I am from America, so I guess that if you wanted to chisel down my personal values to the multi-cultural American stump, you could potentially do that.

When I talk about Japanese culture, believe me, I know. I've lived here for 4 years. I work, everyday in the very environment that creates and teaches those rules. I have, for at least 6 years, been looking at this culture with a critical eye, exploring it from within and taking the values I believe in and applying them to my own life. That is where I differ from the typical Japanese citizen. When I go back to the U.S. I can integrate those values into my life and succeed. They don't have that choice, because their culture is so deafening. You can't be your own person here and expect to succeed-- most Japanese people have no choice but to be Japanese, whether they like it or not.

The fact that you've never asked for a substitution in a restaurant or told them to hold the sauce on a burger just blows my ***** mind though. I mean, I guess you have a choice to be a drone no matter where you live in the world. I feel like I should say something like "no offence!" here, but are you honestly trying to tell me that you've never asked for a salad instead of french fries, or broken the speed limit on the highway? Sorry, I just don't believe it. (People do this in Japan too, I've seen it, but the chances of success here are dismal, while in the USA, I can't think of a single restaurant off the top of my head that wouldn't at least try and accommodate you.)

@Shihoro: Sorry you blame the U.S. for all your problems. I'm not sure you're really looking at the right culprit. The U.S. has it's fair share of problems, but most of them are internal.

I also don't buy all the bullshit about how the Western film industry is crap. I mean, sure, there are bad films that come out, just like there are bad products that come out, and bad entrees on a menu, but if I had to choose between Hollywood, Indie films, and the rest to watch for the rest of my life, I'd no doubt choose Hollywood. It's easy to sit there on the internet and pontificate on the failures of the film industry, but most people's enthusiasm for old properties (films, games, etc.) is just a nasty product of nostalgia.

I completely disagree with FutureBlues and shihoro. I would go deeper than that, but if all we're doing is stating opinions.... This is wrong, that's wrong, I live here, you live there, that's crap, this is crap, West this, East that, blah blah. ;p I do think FB needs to take a chill pill though. (Don't get nostalgic over my use of that idiom, shihoro.)

FutureBlues Wrote:but are you honestly trying to tell me that you've never asked for a salad instead of french fries, or broken the speed limit on the highway? Sorry, I just don't believe it. (People do this in Japan too, I've seen it, but the chances of success here are dismal, while in the USA, I can't think of a single restaurant off the top of my head that wouldn't at least try and accommodate you.)

The only place I get burgers in Japan is McDonalds, since everyone else's are too small, but you can ALWAYS modify the set at McD no problem. They even have a special sticker to put on the wrapper for burgers that have been customized. I believe a year or two ago they had a marketing thing about replacing the fries with salad too. They've done it without blinking every time I've asked.

That said, sets are essentially promotional items. If they chose to not allow substitutions (like it says on the menu at many restaurants I've been to in the West), it is understandable since a salad is probably less profitable than fries if given away at the same price.

That is the biggest problem with his rant. It's not that it's all untrue, it's just that much of it is true in every country. Most of the rest are pretty insignificant (stickers on products). It's like Seinfeld ranting about mattress tags and then saying he hates America because of it. It's too bad he never really touched on real issues like xenophobia, the pressure on women to marry in their early 20s and squirt out a kid, or the awful state of the school system.

FutureBlues Wrote:The fact that you've never asked for a substitution in a restaurant or told them to hold the sauce on a burger just blows my ***** mind though. I mean, I guess you have a choice to be a drone no matter where you live in the world. I feel like I should say something like "no offence!" here, but are you honestly trying to tell me that you've never asked for a salad instead of french fries, or broken the speed limit on the highway? Sorry, I just don't believe it. (People do this in Japan too, I've seen it, but the chances of success here are dismal, while in the USA, I can't think of a single restaurant off the top of my head that wouldn't at least try and accommodate you.)

@Shihoro: Sorry you blame the U.S. for all your problems. I'm not sure you're really looking at the right culprit. The U.S. has it's fair share of problems, but most of them are internal.

I think the restaurant thing is more American (USA) than you think. I don't know how most Europeans think about it, but for me (Dutch) it is pretty unusual to order a substitution (I've never done it).
And......Kyoto Protocol, Afghanistan, Iraq, worldwide financial crisis due to American house market collapsing.........internal problems?

Future Blues has kind of a mean streak doesn't he!

Japanese society is doing something right. They have the longest lifespan in the world, even the poorest neighborhoods are safe to walk in at 3 in the morning, internet is fast, family units are strong, most everyone is thin and healthy, public transportation is reliable and much less stressful (and cheaper) than driving a car in the U.S.. It's the second largest economy in the world (has Germany passed them yet?) in an area where all of the neighbor countries are third world. My 3 bedroom apartment is 1/3 of what a similar one in Kauai, Hawaii would be despite the fact there are 140 million other people living on this incredibly small mountainous island chain. They have a rich history and culture, an amazing number of small family owned business still surviving to visit if you take the side roads off the main drag.

For what it's worth, in America or Japan, I don't think I've ever really tried substituting anything in an order. I look at the menu, choose what I want and enjoy the food.

I guess Future Blues will just continuing to get Blues in the Future if he continues trying to customize his order...