liosama Wrote:I also recommend Orange Days, It's probably my favourite drama out there. I wanted to learn sign language after watching it even~

Haha, same here. It made sign language seem so cool :p
I wanted to learn it, even if only to be able to do this:

:p

I can think of at least three reasons why you need to learn kanji readings, deaf or not:
1. It's harder to use dictionaries to look up words you don't know if you don't know how the kanji are read. You can get around this to a certain extent if you are using computerized dictionaries, but that's pretty limiting.
2. You can't type Japanese on computers (I am not aware of any input systems on computers that don't require knowing how to pronounce the kanji unless you want to "handwrite" everything using a mouse or pad, but that's a hassle.)
3. You cannot read words if they show up in kana instead

As for the "nonverbal communication" thing, I'm just basing that on my own experience of speaking both Japanese and English every day. If there's a big difference, I don't see it.

Man, what an inspiring post. I never looked the question from this angle.
Please share your experiences so we can learn about it too.

I mean, please write a blog, twitter or post here what you are doing/deciding to do.

hereticalrants Wrote:I think that the Chinese written language learned alone might actually be easier, as you would not have to learn the phonetic script that corresponded to the characters. However, you WOULD have to learn more characters...

There are some good books in Japanese, though, so I think you'll like it. That's what really matters. The language that you enjoy more is always easier.

Maybe you could learn 'em both and be some kind of awesome polyglot.

Funny enough, when I started learning, it was kind of a toss up on either Chinese or Japanese... Then in the end I realized that I had more access to Japanese language "resources" in the form of manga, and anime (subs2srt), which would lead it to be more of an fun language to learn just cuz I could keep on reading those two sources until I got good enough to be able to pick up regular Japanese Novels or Textbooks and start reading those!

Though honestly I wouldn't mind learning Chinese next, but I think at this point its kind of silly to talk about learning a Language 3, when I have barely scratched the surface of the freaking Language 2!

yudantaiteki Wrote:(Idon't think there is any evidence for the idea that a deaf person would have an advantage over a hearing person in studying Japanese because of the presence of kanji.)

(Of course, a major question is whether you are "prelingually deaf" or not.)

I don't know about that one I guess I can explore the language and give you guys feedback on my progress and how I'm "learning" the kanji's....

Yes I was born profoundly deaf, and my first language was "SEE (Sign Exact English)", basically... SEE is a "Direct" translation of the written/spoken English, so in effect I was technically *learning* English like a hearing person would be learning English via speaking it. So for me, my "SEE/English" would be my first language. However I'm a bit of an oddball, because a large amount of deaf community learn "ASL (American Sign Language)" in which it does use English, but the word order is French because it came from "LSF (French Sign Language)", thus often they end up with poor ability with English because English is a second language that is often poorly taught.

Basically when my parents found out that I was deaf, they went to an audio specialty, to see what they could do, and they said that I would never be able to read past 4th grade reading level, that I would never be able to understand humor, and that I would never be able to be in the field of work that I am in now (Software Engineering)... My father thought that it was pure bullshit so he put me in mainstream school and basically forced the school to treat me the same as my hearing peers, every-time he found out that they were being "easy" on me because of "oh no, that poor deaf kid" syndrome, my father would go in and rip some new leprechaun. So I got to thank my parents for enabling me to have as good of a grasp on the English language as I do.

IceCream Wrote:i think the lack of listening environment isn't going to set you back at all really. Actually, theres lots of people who can't multitask anyway (me included!!).

But, depending on how you organise your concepts, i think you will be way way ahead of us in terms of reading in no time at all!!!
actually, i'm interested... how do you organise your concepts? When you think, is it the concepts themselves, pictures, writing, movements? i think a lot of us learn to link things through sound, so we hear it in our head when we recall it. But kanji totally turns that system thing on it's head, leaving room for the kanji itself to represent the concept. But we still have to learn all the readings anyway, which are actually fairly random.
But there's no real need for you to do that... so... i think you will learn to read amazingly quickly. The main thing you need to do is spend time now creating clear concept boundaries for the kanji, and after that you have such a huuuuge advantage!!! ＾＿＾

yudan: the major advantage is simply not needing to learn the readings, i think...

Hehe Yeah, I can't multitask anyway, I mean sure I can carry on an IM/IRC conv and work on something at the same time, but everything is in purely text format, and I type bloody fast so its easy for me to "switch" but if you want me to watch tv, and work, and talk to someone via sign language, forget it!

Now on the organize my concept, in regards of Kanji's I'm honestly not sure, I just hit 300 kanji and at this point I think I'm doing ok and organizing it like everyone else is, but I will know more once I pass 500, or hell 1,000 kanji and I can come back and discuss some more about it

On my personal "organization" well, maybe its because I learned "SEE" I think and see things as "English" In other word if a thought/concept can be represented in English language, then I think *that* way, but if its a more abstract concept but still visual, then I can "see an image" of how its put together, etc... I've actually been curious about that topic and have asked a bunch of other deaf people about "how" they see/think, and the answers I get are kind of inconclusive, but they just never seemed interested in the topic so gah.

Oh yes I still need to learn Kanji reading, because of:
1) Look it up in dictionary
2) Typing (IME), I've already have an IME setup, and I know to get the 猫 (CAT) character, I have to type in "neko"...
3) I'm sure there's others

nest0r Wrote:@pharaun: re: The scoffers. Definitely ignore those people. ;p I think you'll find most of the people here are open minded and feel like we can pretty much learn anything we want. Do let me know if you look further into yubimoji (指文字)/fingerspelling) as a general tool--to replace the 'audio' with the 'physical'/gestural in the same way that the handwriting of kanji gets converted into the ability to trace the strokes in your mind whenever you want and can help you memorize. That's only if you have trouble with the kana to 'articulate' as you read, though. Plus it's easy for me to suggest it, but I guess it could be a lot of trouble to mix into everything else, hehe.

http://haruru1113.hp.infoseek.co.jp/syuw...imoji.html <-- Drawings. I think there are probably many similar pages. I turned this one up with a search for 'yubimoji'.

http://www.geocities.jp/tenkara2005/yubimoji.html - Pictures.

Edit: To put it another way pharaun, I'm speaking of using yubimoji not as a communication tool but as a memorization tool--it wouldn't even have to be exactly the same gestures. Just something gestural to internalize, replacing the audio-->subvocalization internalization process, and kind of paralleling the similar sensorimotor stuff we use for kanji.

Wow I've sure started a battle here -_-' much apologies everyone!

Like i said, I think I will avoid the JSL/Sign language during my initial time with learning the Japanese language, because I'm concerned with them getting tangled up with SEE/ASL, because I already know a ton of "Signs" with ASL that does not have a *direct* English translation. Thus when I write those signs down, its really hard to "translate" them because they can mean *so* many different word in different context and situation, and hell some of the signs, I don't even know an appropriate English word to associate with them....

I've already started, when I don't have a paper handy, to trace the character on my hand a bit, but... I worry that it won't help my handwriting which is already really bad!

hereticalrants Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:yudan: the major advantage is simply not needing to learn the readings, i think...

That was my point with Chinese. With Japanese, you DO still have to learn the readings.

EDIT: Hence the 指文字 (maybe)

Like I said earlier, I decided on Japanese because I had more access to "fun" materials to start my learning, but I would love to eventually *also* learn Chinese.

Quote:General back n' forth about high/low context, I'm kind of lost here.

I'm wondering if it would be a issue? Its kind of an odd situation, because when you get the more "oral" deaf people, they tend to behavior more like hearing people and provide more "minimal" amount of body language... Then you get the "deaf" deaf people who always have signed their whole life, they *tend* to have more body language, and the body language becomes part of the "story" that they are telling/etc.... But really that is a pretty bad stereotyping...

pharaun Wrote:Yes I was born profoundly deaf, and my first language was "SEE (Sign Exact English)", basically...

Interesting! It seems (from what I've read) that most prelingual deaf people have a much harder time learning to read English than those who developed their deafness even at young ages like 2-3. So it's good you were able to do it, but it sounds like you had very proactive parents who dealt with the situation well.

Quote:On my personal "organization" well, maybe its because I learned "SEE" I think and see things as "English" In other word if a thought/concept can be represented in English language, then I think *that* way, but if its a more abstract concept but still visual, then I can "see an image" of how its put together, etc... I've actually been curious about that topic and have asked a bunch of other deaf people about "how" they see/think, and the answers I get are kind of inconclusive, but they just never seemed interested in the topic so gah.

I don't think that sort of question is one that can be answered just by asking people what their own impressions are; I don't think anyone, deaf or not, can accurately describe how they think or process information, it's just too complex a question and there's so much unconsciousness involved in it.

Quote:Wow I've sure started a battle here -_-' much apologies everyone!

Not your fault...I spent 15 minutes writing my other reply and editing it to try to take controversial statements out but I guess I still failed. nestor and I have some fundamentally opposed views on language that you're not to blame for.

BTW, the Internet is really a great thing, there's no way we could communicate with you this easily otherwise, even if we were there in person.

yudantaiteki Wrote:2. You can't type Japanese on computers (I am not aware of any input systems on computers that don't require knowing how to pronounce the kanji unless you want to "handwrite" everything using a mouse or pad, but that's a hassle.)

Yes, you can if you learn a direct input method (you to produce Japanese without typing out the reading and converting). The simpliest method is to just type the unicode value for each kana/kanji. There are other methods that tries do the same, but with less key strokes. I made a thread about a few different systems when I switched to T-Code. They are not very popular since they require a lot of upfront effort and practice.

Seems to me, to answer the original question: Not much difference than how everyone else is doing.

Learning via kana/readings makes using pre-made material a snap. While most prefer "hear word, write word", originally we were doing "see kana, write kanji" which is likely what you'll use. The difficulty arises if you're later wanting items specifically for deaf persons such as Sign Language and Lip Reading.

What makes it easier for you is you just want Japanese to enjoy Japanese. As you pointed out, the material to enjoy Japanese is immense. Manga, novels, anime, dramas and enormous web presence is yours for the taking.

On top of that, I'm stoked at the idea of you one day posting to 2ch in Japanese. Like others are asking, please keep us updated on your progress. Also don't be afraid to ask for advice just because a 2 page discussion ensue. That just happens in every 5 threads here.

Zarxrax Wrote:To the original poster: Have you watched the drama "Orange Days"? It's about a deaf girl, has lots of sign language, talks about lip-reading and stuff, and I think it might be a generally useful (and very interesting) thing to watch.
You can probably get along pretty well in Japan without needing to speak, even easier than in America maybe. Almost all restaurants have picture menus, and if you go to a McDonald's or something, when they see you are a foreigner, they will probably have it ready for you to point on

Yeah, like I've said, I'm going to probably hold off learning JSL/etc just so I don't risk mixing it up with ASL because ASL already has several signs that I can't quite directly translate into English so I'm a bit concerned there. Heh, that's kind of funny.

Zarxrax Wrote:I think it might be worthwhile trying to learn how to speak Japanese. You mentioned that you learned how to speak some english words. By comparison, Japanese is much simpler and straightforward, as for the most part, the characters don't change sound like they do in English, so once you learn the sound each hiragana character makes, you can read and speak any words that use that character.

Well, here's the problem, have you ever hear a profoundly deaf person speaking? One of the problem is (depends on your level of hearing loss) that we have no real "feedback", so we can't hear ourself speaking so.... It does lead to problems So I I still do "mouth" words and I think sometime its gibbish (sp), but other times some people have said that its decently accurate... I don't know really

Zarxrax Wrote:As for studying, just focus heavily on reading. Learn grammar and some vocab, then hit up some easy manga like よつばと！
If you have a good electronic dictionary, that can help you with signs and stuff when you actually go to Japan.

Yeah I was actually looking at an electronic dictionary, but they are so expensive, so I'll probably hold off until I'm at a level where I *can* actually use a dictionary

liosama Wrote:Yudanteki didn't even say anything negative he just said that he thought a deaf person may not have any particular advantage over a non-deaf person in learning how to read, just because of Kanji. In fact he wasn't even sure of the point he was making.

Honestly, at this point, I don't know if I would have any "advantage" or "disadvantage", I'm still way too much of a newbie to be able to give my experience here But I can say so far that picking up on the Kanji has been pretty easy, up to about ~300 now, I had a hard time picking up the Hiragana and Katakana, because they were just a relatively few stroke and a ton of them were really similar such as われね.... But on the Kanji, I just think, ok "keyword", ok, what component is in it? "CAT" - "wild dogs, seedling (flower, rice field)" then I composite the Kanji from those pieces, my number 1 issue right now with writing down the Kanji is I still have problem remembering the relative size of the composite pieces, such as sometime I make the flower too large, or... I don't quite get the stroke order correct... The RtK1 book has been really good for most part on the stroke, but I'm still not 100% for certain on *some* stroke such as "PORTENT" keyword, it has those 4 drops, and I'm not sure if they go "inbound" or "outbound" on each side....

Zarxrax Wrote:

liosama Wrote:I also recommend Orange Days, It's probably my favourite drama out there. I wanted to learn sign language after watching it even~

Haha, same here. It made sign language seem so cool :p
I wanted to learn it, even if only to be able to do this:

:p

Heh, looks like I'll have to look it up but like I said a couple time, I'm a little nervous about mixing up the JSL with my regular ASL/SEE signs so I might want to hold off on that until I have more solid grasp of Japanese, then I can use the Japanese language to anchor the JSL to.

mentat_kgs Wrote:Man, what an inspiring post. I never looked the question from this angle.
Please share your experiences so we can learn about it too.

I mean, please write a blog, twitter or post here what you are doing/deciding to do.

Heh yeah, I was kind of hoping to post here and get feedback and suggestion on how i do things and maybe open some sort of dialogue with people on figuring out the best approach or something.

yudantaiteki Wrote:

pharaun Wrote:Yes I was born profoundly deaf, and my first language was "SEE (Sign Exact English)", basically...

Interesting! It seems (from what I've read) that most prelingual deaf people have a much harder time learning to read English than those who developed their deafness even at young ages like 2-3. So it's good you were able to do it, but it sounds like you had very proactive parents who dealt with the situation well.

There is several reasons why a ton of prelingual deaf people have a weaker grasp on English:
1) Their parents don't learn how to sign, and they have to depend on lipread (15-20% of spoken English is lip-readable)... Try learning a language when you only can actually read/understand 15-20% of the spoken word via pure "lipreading" without the ability to understand/learn the context...
2) Poor education, because people take sympathy on the deaf thus the education is piss poor
3) They never learn their L1 very good, its a big mis-mash of ASL, PSE, English, Whatever else, thus they have poor L1 development, and without an excellent grasp on L1 it becomes harder to learn L2 (Aka English)
4) Oralism & Audism (sp) - Go look it up on the wiki, but basically people would suppress or ban teaching sign language, thus the students would not and/or have harder time mastering their L1 which leads to problems with L2....

Finally, how my parents did it was that they used "SEE (Signed Exact English)" which is an exact DIRECT signed version of the English language, now if a deaf student learned full mastery of ASL, then learned English, they would have as good or even better grasp of English than I did, but the unfortunate fact, a large majority don't.

But anyway in regards of my parents, they created these "flash cards" that had the following:
1) Sign
2) English word
3) Picture of said item/object

And they would tape/glue it to everything in the house, such as a flashcard for wall would be taped to the actual wall in the house... They would always make sure to correct my English usage... They also strongly encouraged us to read books. I actually *HATED* to read books, why? I could be a shy kid sometime, and the teachers at school would force us to stand up and read outloud from the books, It wasn't as easy for me because I would have to hold the book somehow, then somehow sign with both hands, and I was highly embrassed at how *slow* sign language is compared to the spoken language. Some people can speak up to 500+ words per minute, and there was and is *NO* way that I can sign that fast, thus I would be slower than everyone else and I just really HATED it.

My parents noticed that I was really hating to read books and read out loud, so what they did was go to the school board and basically twisted their arm behind them and force them to let me read books that I picked and read books on my own time. After third grade when they finally allowed me to pick my own books, I then proceed to devour up the *entire* school library. The librarians were actually worried that I wasn't even actually reading the books, and was instead just looking at the pretty pictures, they were also worried that I refused to read fictional books, I would check out Encyclopedias and technical books and devour them.

yudantaiteki Wrote:

Quote:On my personal "organization" well, maybe its because I learned "SEE" I think and see things as "English" In other word if a thought/concept can be represented in English language, then I think *that* way, but if its a more abstract concept but still visual, then I can "see an image" of how its put together, etc... I've actually been curious about that topic and have asked a bunch of other deaf people about "how" they see/think, and the answers I get are kind of inconclusive, but they just never seemed interested in the topic so gah.

I don't think that sort of question is one that can be answered just by asking people what their own impressions are; I don't think anyone, deaf or not, can accurately describe how they think or process information, it's just too complex a question and there's so much unconsciousness involved in it.

I guess, I just like to analysis myself, my own thought process, and maybe its just *how* I think that makes it more easier for me to "Translate" or attempt to explain the thought process that I have...

yudantaiteki Wrote:

Quote:Wow I've sure started a battle here -_-' much apologies everyone!

Not your fault...I spent 15 minutes writing my other reply and editing it to try to take controversial statements out but I guess I still failed. nestor and I have some fundamentally opposed views on language that you're not to blame for.

BTW, the Internet is really a great thing, there's no way we could communicate with you this easily otherwise, even if we were there in person.

Indeed, I've always loved the Internet as the *great* equalizer, because no one on the other end would have to know that I am deaf, It forces everyone to use a common medium; keyboard, monitor. It enables me to be able to communicate with everyone like equals. I used to like to play MMORPG, but lately I've been noticing more and more online games are providing Voice commands and so forth. I've been kicked out of groups and events because I didn't have the ability to ***** use the "team speak" which kind of pissed me off and made me stop playing the large majority of online games.

Pauline Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:2. You can't type Japanese on computers (I am not aware of any input systems on computers that don't require knowing how to pronounce the kanji unless you want to "handwrite" everything using a mouse or pad, but that's a hassle.)

Yes, you can if you learn a direct input method (you to produce Japanese without typing out the reading and converting). The simpliest method is to just type the unicode value for each kana/kanji. There are other methods that tries do the same, but with less key strokes. I made a thread about a few different systems when I switched to T-Code. They are not very popular since they require a lot of upfront effort and practice.

Oh hell no, I don't want to handwrite, I'm awful artist, and I tried it a couple time with the trackball, FORGET IT! I can already type at a decent speed of up to 80 WPM, thus it makes sense that an input method would use typing.

I don't even want to learn how to input the Unicode values, because that would not be useful anywhere else, plus as far as I understand, each platform have their own way of inputting Unicode. I am currently using Anthy via ibus on linux, and the Microsoft IME on windows. Its also probably not usable by electronic dictionary, plus how do you look up words in the traditional paper Japanese dictionary?

Readings?

I wouldn't mind trying some other input system, but at the same time, I would think I would have problems translating it to other system, and it would impair my ability to walk up to say any computer and turning on the OS's IME system and starting to use it?

[Edit:] Edited to add a reply to a post above mine

Nukemarine Wrote:Seems to me, to answer the original question: Not much difference than how everyone else is doing.

Learning via kana/readings makes using pre-made material a snap. While most prefer "hear word, write word", originally we were doing "see kana, write kanji" which is likely what you'll use. The difficulty arises if you're later wanting items specifically for deaf persons such as Sign Language and Lip Reading.

What makes it easier for you is you just want Japanese to enjoy Japanese. As you pointed out, the material to enjoy Japanese is immense. Manga, novels, anime, dramas and enormous web presence is yours for the taking.

On top of that, I'm stoked at the idea of you one day posting to 2ch in Japanese. Like others are asking, please keep us updated on your progress. Also don't be afraid to ask for advice just because a 2 page discussion ensue. That just happens in every 5 threads here.

Yeah, that's another concern of mine about learning the JSL, I think its important to get more solid grasp of the actual Japanese language so I can then use *that* ability to get access to JSL materials which are probably primarily Japanese, or hell even get in touch with some deaf students in Japan to get access to JSL materials.

That was my thought on going with Japanese over Chinese to start with, though honestly I wouldn't mind learning Chinese, because I'm also interested in history. I personally LOVE history

@pharaun: As usual Nukemarine offers level-headed advice, take everything else with a grain of salt. ;p The high/low context thing, though I think it's obviously true as a general rule of thumb (individuals vary, as the wiki article notes), was just something extra to think about that I threw in as part of some attempts to shed light on possible angles to look at even with video. Mostly I think you can get a feel of the language yourself as you progress, I think taking this self-study approach, you can see how to break it up according to your own strengths and preferences, and shape the methods and materials you use accordingly.

@liosama: I was responding to yudantaiteki's first draft of the post, and then later after the thread carried on I added some comments in light of the thread as a whole and a bit of yudantaiteki's comment I'd missed.

Edit: Removed stuff to keep thread on track. Then I rambled:

My own study method uses listening as more of a supplementary tool, that's why I was focusing on finding replacements for that supplementation. Not because I think it's a priority, but because I think it's doable/actionable. Listening as a specific area of focus aside, the bulk of my own studies is and has been on analysing sentence structure, attaching kana to kanji, memorizing meanings in context, focusing mostly on the text, but also using sensorimotor movements (both physical and 'mental'/abstract), images, and sound to create a multimodal/multisensory environment. If for example, I didn't have access to either Japanese video or audio, I would simply put more emphasis on everything else.

One other thing that is interesting about Japanese is the amount of onomatopoeia, and the prevalence and particular usage of the visual-textual representation of sound in manga. Even silence has its own 'sound' (tangent - similar appreciation of silence: 音響系). I had some links to interesting essays examining the differences in Japanese with regards to this, but I'm sure they're on Google someplace, along with dictionaries of the aforementioned onomatopoeia.

pharaun Wrote:Funny enough, when I started learning, it was kind of a toss up on either Chinese or Japanese... Then in the end I realized that I had more access to Japanese language "resources"

Yup, that's why my Japanese is improving more quickly than my Spanish...
I did just pick up some books by Allende, though..

Quote:Now on the organize my concept,

I'm curious about that... when you read English, do you sign stuff out in your head, or what?
I really can't read without at least partially hearing the words in my mind(in English, anyway. I can do it in Japanese, since many kanji compounds are just logical ideograms), so conceptualising the way you do it interests me.

Quote:but if its a more abstract concept but still visual, then I can "see an image" of how its put together, etc...

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. I think the Heisig method and all of his crazy "imaginitive memory" sssshhhtuff is to blame.

Quote:I've already started, when I don't have a paper handy, to trace the character on my hand a bit, but... I worry that it won't help my handwriting which is already really bad!

You definitely want to get some graph paper. I just failed a kanji I thought I knew well because I was crossing some of the strokes when I wrote it on my hand and was not able to visually correct the mistake

Quote:Like I said earlier, I decided on Japanese because I had more access to "fun" materials to start my learning, but I would love to eventually *also* learn Chinese.

Yeah... Over the course of the day I've stubbornly convinced myself that Chinese would be the easiest written language for a deaf person, but like I first said, I cannot deny that Japanese is fun. Technically Spanish would be easier for me, but I only come accross one or two books in it/month that actually interest me, soooooo....

Quote:have you ever hear a profoundly deaf person speaking?

Yes. One of my schoolmates was profoundly deaf... she always sat next to me, since apparantly I was easier to lip-read than other people.

Quote:something about speaking at 500wpm

I don't think I could understand that. Í´m sure I can read faster than that, but spoken it would sound like

Quote:gibbish (sp?)

gibberish

I couldn't post a reply before but I hope it works now.

Yes I get you now nest0r^^ that's cool

and Pharaun, feel free to check out our irc chan
#rtk irc.rizon.net

nest0r Wrote:@pharaun: As usual Nukemarine offers level-headed advice, take everything else with a grain of salt. ;p The high/low context thing, though I think it's obviously true as a general rule of thumb (individuals vary, as the wiki article notes), was just something extra to think about that I threw in as part of some attempts to shed light on possible angles to look at even with video. Mostly I think you can get a feel of the language yourself as you progress, I think taking this self-study approach, you can see how to break it up according to your own strengths and preferences, and shape the methods and materials you use accordingly.

Ah, I've always liked self-study, but at the same time, one of the nice thing sometime about classroom study was that it would force me to get off my arse.

nest0r Wrote:My own study method uses listening as more of a supplementary tool, that's why I was focusing on finding replacements for that supplementation. Not because I think it's a priority, but because I think it's doable/actionable. Listening as a specific area of focus aside, the bulk of my own studies is and has been on analysing sentence structure, attaching kana to kanji, memorizing meanings in context, focusing mostly on the text, but also using sensorimotor movements (both physical and 'mental'/abstract), images, and sound to create a multimodal/multisensory environment. If for example, I didn't have access to either Japanese video or audio, I would simply put more emphasis on everything else.

One other thing that is interesting about Japanese is the amount of onomatopoeia, and the prevalence and particular usage of the visual-textual representation of sound in manga. Even silence has its own 'sound' (tangent - similar appreciation of silence: 音響系). I had some links to interesting essays examining the differences in Japanese with regards to this, but I'm sure they're on Google someplace, along with dictionaries of the aforementioned onomatopoeia.

I guess I do have a little bit of advantage and/or disadvantage there, I don't really need to pay any attention to the whole process of learning how to speak or listen to the language itself, but same time it does close off that "venture" of learning...

I noticed that (onomatopoeia). When I first picked up a manga I was rather confused by the fact that it had an impressively large dictionary in front of the manga for every single "sound" type in the manga!

hereticalrants Wrote:I'm curious about that... when you read English, do you sign stuff out in your head, or what?
I really can't read without at least partially hearing the words in my mind(in English, anyway. I can do it in Japanese, since many kanji compounds are just logical ideograms), so conceptualising the way you do it interests me.

Quote:but if its a more abstract concept but still visual, then I can "see an image" of how its put together, etc...

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. I think the Heisig method and all of his crazy "imaginitive memory" sssshhhtuff is to blame.

Haha, I quite like the Heisig method with the imaginative memory stuff, it seems to be pretty helpful so far honestly, but I'm just now at the 300 Kanji mark so eh..

Anyway on the topic of "reading English". I'm not quite for sure exactly 100% how I do it, but it seems to mainly vary between:
1) Concept/visual action/picture/etc just pops up in my mind, such as when an author is describing the detonation of a bomb for example, I most often tend to visually see it detonate...
2) For more abstract concept or "English" structure/grammar that can't quite directly be visualized the words kind of tend to just "pop" into mind, I don't "speak or sign" the words at all, they just "pop" into my mind. Often I won't even know how to spell a word at all if you asked me to spell it. Yet if I was able to get a piece of paper or a keyboard and type it out I would be able to visually confirm that it is spelled correctly or not. Its like the word just *appears*, but its not composited of its component parts such as "t, h, e", I just feel/see the word "the". I'm not sure if I am being quite clear enough on my description.

hereticalrants Wrote:

Quote:I've already started, when I don't have a paper handy, to trace the character on my hand a bit, but... I worry that it won't help my handwriting which is already really bad!

You definitely want to get some graph paper. I just failed a kanji I thought I knew well because I was crossing some of the strokes when I wrote it on my hand and was not able to visually correct the mistake

I've started to get into the habit of carrying around a clipboard, a pen, and my Heisig RTK1 book with me everywhere I go. I'll do writing lessons during my lunch break, etc... I've been using 4-2 grid paper for my Hiragana & Katakana, but I've been experimenting with a slightly larger grid paper more like 3.2-1.6 for the Kanji so I can have more room to ensure that my strokes are done properly. (4-2 = 4 minor lines each inch, 2 = 2 major line each inch, aprox 15 box cross on an US Letter paper)

hereticalrants Wrote:

Quote:Like I said earlier, I decided on Japanese because I had more access to "fun" materials to start my learning, but I would love to eventually *also* learn Chinese.

Yeah... Over the course of the day I've stubbornly convinced myself that Chinese would be the easiest written language for a deaf person, but like I first said, I cannot deny that Japanese is fun. Technically Spanish would be easier for me, but I only come accross one or two books in it/month that actually interest me, soooooo....

Perhaps you are right, I did some looking up on the topic of Chinese grammar and etc, and apparently its easier than Japanese, and that the "hard" part was in the tones part of the language which I wouldn't have to learn But like I said, I have more access to fun resources which would motivate me more! And considering its my first foray into Asian language, I figured one of the more important element would be keeping the whole process fun! Because it won't be a quick or easy couple month slog, it will probably end up be a multiple year slog to get up to the point where I can read the material well enough.

liosama Wrote:and Pharaun, feel free to check out our irc chan
#rtk irc.rizon.net

That's pretty sweet! I have irssi and an IRC bouncer so I outta to stop by sometime and see how it goes How busy is it in general?

Speaking of self-study vs. otherwise, perhaps you have access to teachers or otherwise who specialize in teaching foreign languages to deaf learners? Even if they're oriented towards other languages (Romance languages or whatnot), they might have some tips, at least, on other ways to approach materials and exercises. Though you might have to 'steal' the advice from their words if they're stuck in a conventional mindset.

I am now thinking of getting this book, because it looks interesting (my interest was piqued by that Wikipedia article that discussed the politics of classroom lecture methods): http://www.amazon.com/Deaf-Japan-Signing...080147356X

Anyway, I keep wanting to ramble about alternative modalities for articulatory rehearsal in the working memory, but... Like I said before, I've been kind of interested in this topic awhile, but in a more abstract, selfish kind of way, so here's what I gathered in the past:

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=4612 - Of particular interest to you I think might be #105, 102, and 3. Also just the general links about how kanji is processed, the role of literacy, 'multisensory integration', etc... By the time I made that thread and posted this comment, a bunch of us were already in the middle of a lengthy debate from another thread, so.

Edit: Also: this and this ... There were some more but I can't find them now, hehe. /ramble

nest0r Wrote:Speaking of self-study vs. otherwise, perhaps you have access to teachers or otherwise who specialize in teaching foreign languages to deaf learners? Even if they're oriented towards other languages (Romance languages or whatnot), they might have some tips, at least, on other ways to approach materials and exercises. Though you might have to 'steal' the advice from their words if they're stuck in a conventional mindset.

Well... Not really, when I was at RIT (Rochester Institution of Technology) the interpreter office specifically banned any interpreter from offering their service for almost *all* foreign language classes, there was a few exceptions such as German or Spanish. Yes a few deaf students did manage to get through a couple of those classes but they would be unsupported by the accessibility/service department.

nest0r Wrote:I am now thinking of getting this book, because it looks interesting (my interest was piqued by that Wikipedia article that discussed the politics of classroom lecture methods): http://www.amazon.com/Deaf-Japan-Signing...080147356X

Anyway, I keep wanting to ramble about alternative modalities for articulatory rehearsal in the working memory, but... Like I said before, I've been kind of interested in this topic awhile, but in a more abstract, selfish kind of way, so here's what I gathered in the past:

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=4612 - Of particular interest to you I think might be #105, 102, and 3. Also just the general links about how kanji is processed, the role of literacy, 'multisensory integration', etc... By the time I made that thread and posted this comment, a bunch of us were already in the middle of a lengthy debate from another thread, so.

Edit: Also: this and this ... There were some more but I can't find them now, hehe. /ramble

Heh, there's quite a few articles in those list that seemed interesting to me so I went ahead and bookmarked that thread along with a couple other to review on my own time on the weekend or so.

"Learning" Updates

I don't know if this is radically different from anyone else approach to learning, or if I am indeed barking up the wrong tree here considering I'm only now on 323 kanji, and hopefully tonight I'll be picking up another 30+ more.

But anyway, here's some things that I've been noticing so far....
1) I noticed that it seems like I have better chance of retaining(<- god I hate this word) the Kanji if I firstly review the Kanji and write them out once, maybe twice for the tougher one out of the Heisig book.
2) Wait for maybe 5 minute to say a hour doing other tasks such as watching an ep of a show for example.
3) Review the new Kanji and fail about 67% (worst day) to 80%ish on both reading the Kanji and recalling the English keyword, and reading the Keyword and recalling how to write down the Kanji on a piece of paper.
4) Go do something for the remaining hour or so before bed, then head to bed.
5) In the morning before lunch time I'll then re-review all of the new Kanji + all of the expired Kanji from the previous lessons, here I notice I'm usually able to maintain up to 80% or greater retainion (<- not sure of the right spelling of this one) of the new Kanji's
6) Usually after a couple of days the large majority of the stories starts to fade away and my mind almost automatically pops up the Kanji or the component parts when I see the Keyword. The Keywords that I still have trouble, I'll fight to retain the story and use the series of keywords in the story to help summon forth the final Kanji form.

So at this point considering the low amount of Kanji that I've covered so far I don't know if this is normal or if I am barking up the wrong tree or something. It seems like I've been mainly using the story to help remember the form and construction of the tougher Kanji while the large majority of the story fades within a couple day or a week and the Kanji just pops up.

As far as retention of kanji/stories go, that's pretty normal. The stories are just temporary bridges meant to fade away after you've got the kanji down. For me, they were still 'around' in my head (the keywords as well), so that when I started learning vocabulary (readings), I could work the keywords and stories into definitions when I felt it necessary.

I always tried to write the kanji a few times when first learning it, and again when doing reps if I felt fuzzy on them. Edit: I'm a big fan of muscle memory. This was before I realized it was a focus of study in much neurolinguistic research (see How the Brain Processes Kanji #78, and also: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...2#pid81142 ;p) My review schedule was generally: study/come up with stories (or use ones on the site), writing the kanji out and sort of piecing the story together as I formed the radicals. Then pass the freshly studied card as 'difficult' so that it comes up the next day for the first review. I think waiting a full day between first studying and first review is a good schedule.

The forum's filled with plenty of tips with regards to RTK. Example: I often felt it helped if I made sure to use the bold/italics in the story formatting, it seemed to give me extra visual 'hooks' to focus on. I also tried to phrase stories (or even rephrase the shared stories I used) so that the keyword was the first word in the story, followed by the other primitive words in the order they were written. I didn't always do this, but I did when it seemed easy enough.

Edit: See also: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...9#pid90249

And: The effects of practice and delay on motor skill learning and retention