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IceCream Wrote:＊　3. 範囲・範囲の終わり
What makes something a range or scope? What's the difference between the meanings of the で and に sentences here? The definition says that one is a range / range end, and one is a point, but i don't really get it, i think. How do you decide if something is a range to begin with?!
で：　③範囲・範囲の終わり * ３時間でできる　　 ３時で締め切る
に：　⑥時点　時間の一点（長くても） * ２時に会う　　　　　　縄文時代に発達した

OK, so ３時間 is pretty clearly a range of time, right? Similarly ２時 is a point in time. So the first example in each case is a nice clear-cut one. The second example in each case is showing examples that come closer to the boundary: in ３時で締め切る the で indicates that you have up to 3 o'clock to meet the deadline : another range. And the に発達した is treating the Joumon period as a (rather long) point in time. (kind of feels like maybe the difference between "in the J. period" and "by the Joumon period".)

The Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar points out that sometimes there is a choice between で and に, eg

DBJG Wrote:春学期は五月十日(で|に)終わる。
Where de is used, the nuance is that the spring term lasts up to May 10. When ni is used, however, the sentence merely indicates the time when the spring term ends.

(Incidentally, the DBJG analysis puts the で of ３時間でできる in the 道具・手段 category, leaving only sentences like３時で締め切る in their range-of-time class.)
ETA: that is, the DBJG basically says that this kind of で is defining a range of time by saying "up to this finishing time", whereas に is just saying "at this time". Dunno if you find that a helpful way to think about it.

Wait, it's grammar week? This week? But nobody told me!

IceCream Wrote:it's interesting that it's "by the end".

...where'd that come from? I don't think I meant to imply it :-)

Some of these で's are not the particle but the -te form of だ, and so they indicate completed or realized/actualized states.

The で with a time expression usually means that when that time period is complete, or when a future time is actually here, the next thing will be true. So 明日で六週間になる means that when tomorrow is actually here it will be 6 weeks (since the start of something, or whatever). ３時間でできる means that when three hours have passed, it will be done (or perhaps able to be done).

The で that marks a subject is the same thing - it always indicates some sort of actual, real condition rather than just a hypothetical. So if you say あの店でいい you're saying that if you actually go to the store, it will be good. In other words, this indicates that a specific (usually upcoming) visit to the store, whereas あの店がいい is just a general statement that the store is good.

Other examples:
皆で行く - we will get together as a group and go
友だちと２人で行く - My friend and I will go as two people (this sounds strange in English but is common in Japanese)
私のほうでやっておきます - this is another common usage, saying that you will do something (actually do a specific thing).

て forms can nearly always be analyzed as completed actions, started actions, or realized/actualized states. Sometimes it takes a little mental work to get from there to the actual meaning but I think that a good understanding of the て form can clarify a lot of things in Japanese grammar.

(Many books do not differentiate between the particle and the -te form of da, since they both derive from the same source they can be hard to distinguish and in some cases they're not completely distinct.)

IceCream Wrote:oh, it was this bit... plus the 範囲の終わり from Niwasaburou. i thought it meant that it was a finishing time if anything

Ah. I did mean 'always by a finishing time', but when the finishing time is vague that doesn't mean 'up to the latest possible point you could still call the finishing time', it just means you're being vague ;-). That's true of the English "by the Victorian age": that is talking about a range of time ending at the rather fuzzily defined point of the Victorian age.

NB: we are here moving into the region where I may be applying my English-language preconceptions to things. So for instance in 私のパスポートは六月できれる I am assuming that the speaker is being about as precise as the English "my passport expires in June" and is not implicitly saying either "beginning of June" or "end of June". But I might be wrong.

Yes. でも　is で + も. It is "With that state too~"
You can see this is just like て form as in 「怖くても守りたいものがある」

Even something as simple as 書いてください can be analyzed like this; if you think of 書いて as the finished action of writing, and ください as "give to me", it's easy to see why the resulting meaning is "(please) write this for me". 書いておく is the finished act of writing + おく ("put" or "place"), so it's "write and put aside for future use". 読んでいます is the finished act of reading + existence ("I have read"), or the started act of reading + existence ("I am reading"). etc.

As for に:
＊　に　　⑦原因　　生理的・心理的な原因が多い
　 　　　　物音に驚く　　　酒に酔う　　　雨に濡れる

If I understand your question, you're asking why it's 酒に酔う but ペンで書く, or 雨に濡れる but 車で行く. I think the difference is that the で is used with "operational" verbs (ones that the subject has control over) whereas the に is used with "affective" verbs (ones that the subject does not have control over). But I could be wrong about this.

IceCream Wrote:＊　に　　⑦原因　　生理的・心理的な原因が多い
　 　　　　物音に驚く　　　酒に酔う　　　雨に濡れる

Ice Cream, pardon me if I'm hijacking your thread, but this is what I'm curious about:

I understood に in ⑦ to indicate "the cause of a physical or psychological state". But the nearest thing I can find in my go-to grammar point clarifier, the DBJG says:

"に (3) A particle which indicates an agent or a source in passive, causative...and other receiving constructions."

This would seem to include the Niwasaburou meaning, but also a whole lot more, and no other DBJG entry is as narrowly specific as the Niwasaburou's.

So I'm wondering if you'd mind posting the entire Niwasaburou's 'に' entry. (You did offer in the 'だけ' thread...heh.) I'm interested in seeing how these grammar points are framed in Japanese vs. how the're framed (in DBJG) in English.

In the meantime, I'm really enjoying this thread. (signed) Grammar Geek

What grammar guide is that?

I'd recommend using the Dictionary of Basic/Intermediate/Advanced Grammar instead of Niwa Saburous webbook since those are a LOT more comprehensive and definitely teach you more about the grammar. Saburou offers an interesting perspective into Japanese grammar, but it wasn't made to teach you grammar, it was made for you to reflect on grammar you already take for granted. Thus, I would recommend reading it for pleasure, not studying, where there are much better resources available.

yukamina Wrote:What grammar guide is that?

If you're asking me, it's the Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar by Seiichi Makino and Michio Tsutsui. It's really a reference book rather than a textbook, although several people here have mentioned that they've read through it at an early stage of their study.

Ice Cream, thanks for posting that.