Hey,
My Japanese is getting pretty good recently and I'm thinking about getting a job here after finishing studying. The only thing is, my keigo sucks!
I think, like a lot of people, I've learnt spoken Japanese mainly through friends... so my verb endings are always plain form.

Intellectually I know the proper desu / masu endings but my L1 brain interferes because I have trouble categorising people into higher social status / outside group - in English you only use language that way to put people close to you or push them away, and the difference between is hardly noticeable.

I come off sounding rude when I talk to older people if we talk for any length of time.
Has anyone fixed this problem in themselves? Are there classes in Tokyo for western foreigners who can't speak keigo?!
I need like a Japanese finishing school I think!

You really got to JLPT1 without learning keigo?

I learnt it, I know it, but when I'm speaking it doesn't come out naturally.

Entirely possible. I didn't really learn keigo until I had passed JLPT 1 and had to start teaching in a program that emphasized it. I could understand a lot of keigo, of course, but I had trouble using it. IMO it's by far the most difficult thing in learning Japanese (yes, even more difficult than kanji). I still don't really have a great active command of keigo, although I can use it a lot better than I used to.

Reading the explanations and situations in Japanese: The Spoken Language is helpful because they provide very detailed explanations of keigo and have many different contexts and situations using it, but the books may be kind of expensive just to get them for that purpose. There are probably books you could get in Japanese that explain it for native speakers that might help as well (or websites). Of course you have to practice it too; sometimes I speak keigo with friends just for fun, but it can be good practice as well.

I can recommend 日米会話学院 (also know as the Japanese Language Institute) in Tokyo.

They have a daytime intensive program that focuses on business conversation. They also have night classes and morning classes in business conversation.

I took the daytime program for 6 months and it gave a huge boost to my keigo.

Here's their website: http://www.nichibei.ac.jp/jli/daytime.html

I reckon if you get the job first the keigo will take care of itself being in that environment your speech should eventually alter coz people imitate others
This is what happened to a friend of mine anyway; she knew only casual italian but once she started work formal speech just came naturally. And I think Khatzumoto (if you've ever come across the AJATT site) experienced something similar - said he went into work speaking like a yakuza, (disclaimer: unlikely his exact words but you get the drift!) but week around his co-workers sorted that out

I also passed JLPT1, but my keigo is pretty awful.

I watched a lot of taiga dramas in hopes that it would help me learn keigo, but in the end I'm afraid that the only way to get use to using keigo is to just use it, and use it as much as I can.

Fuamnach Wrote:I reckon if you get the job first the keigo will take care of itself

Highly unlikely. Native Japanese people don't pick up keigo naturally; it's orders of magnitude more complicated than formality in Italian (or any western language). Also, if it's a job where they expect you to use keigo, you're not going to get past the interview if you can't do it.

I haven't seen the particular AJATT message you're referring to, but either you're misunderstanding it or khatz is lying/exaggerating/misinformed -- there's no way someone can pick up keigo in one week.

yudantaiteki Wrote:

Fuamnach Wrote:I reckon if you get the job first the keigo will take care of itself

Highly unlikely. Native Japanese people don't pick up keigo naturally; it's orders of magnitude more complicated than formality in Italian (or any western language). Also, if it's a job where they expect you to use keigo, you're not going to get past the interview if you can't do it.

Yes, Italian would certainly have been easier. But I thought, just like as it may take someone a little longer to learn Japanese itself coz it is "harder" the same would go for its formal language, but it's not impossible to gradually pick up. Just a matter of time.
About not getting past the interview; so how would it work? :S I'm not in Japan so I don't know. Even the natives would have to have prep lessons before going for the interview? I thought if the company is really particular about it, they train you, no problem.

yudantaiteki Wrote:I haven't seen the particular AJATT message you're referring to, but either you're misunderstanding it or khatz is lying/exaggerating/misinformed -- there's no way someone can pick up keigo in one week.

Hence the disclaimer I can't find that post right now, so for the moment i'd rather you take it as me misunderstanding (don't wanna sully someone's name here!)

尊敬語 is very easy to learn and can be picked up in a week no problem.

謙遜語 is quite a bit more difficult for me. Probably because I have a natural dislike of lowering myself in any situation.

yudantaiteki Wrote:

Fuamnach Wrote:I reckon if you get the job first the keigo will take care of itself

Highly unlikely. Native Japanese people don't pick up keigo naturally;

I've heard this too - my Japanese friend who works at a コンビ二 told me that they have to train a lot of the new staff in how to use keigo.

In the end I think the only way to really learn keigo will be to actually use it.

It's very common to not develop keigo skill even if you have otherwise advanced Japanese. Remember that most Japanese natives cannot speak keigo very well despite being native speakers of normal Japanese. JLPT doesn't test production at all and doesn't really give much focus to testing keigo.

Personally I was in the same boat as the OP. I took first year Japanese in university in Canada, self studied a bit, and then tested directly into 4th and 5th year Japanese in Japan. As a result I completely skipped keigo. I've been improving my polite speech on-the-job since my coworkers are Japanese, but I've been planning on going through some keigo books meant for natives when I get a chance. I'm also planning on taking the BJT.

@avparker: Konbini etc workers don't (generally) speak real keigo, they speak baito-go which is like really basic keigo full of mistakes. --> http://www.amazon.co.jp/そのバイト語はやめなさい―プロが...4532311535

@Womacks: No, you cannot learn real keigo in a week. You might be able to cram the fundamentals, but you cannot change the way you speak so easily, especially if you're been speaking exclusively in plain form for years.

You can also try watching Japanese TV drama. A lot of drama includes keigo used at the workplace. Also, you really get to see the whole idea of 尊敬語 and 謙遜語 in action.

Katsumoto basically said he knew two types of Japanese before coming to Japan, super polite (aka keigo), and ultra informal manga/drama style speech, and that it only took about 2 weeks to pick up more normal, conversational style Japanese.

Jarvik7 Wrote:@Womacks: No, you cannot learn real keigo in a week. You might be able to cram the fundamentals, but you cannot change the way you speak so easily, especially if you're been speaking exclusively in plain form for years.

I said you can learn 尊敬語 in a week.

Womacks23 Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:@Womacks: No, you cannot learn real keigo in a week. You might be able to cram the fundamentals, but you cannot change the way you speak so easily, especially if you're been speaking exclusively in plain form for years.

I said you can learn 尊敬語 in a week.

That doesn't change anything. You can learn the basics but you cannot come to use them consistently and naturally in a week.

Speak slower then.

danieldesu Wrote:Katsumoto basically said he knew two types of Japanese before coming to Japan, super polite (aka keigo), and ultra informal manga/drama style speech, and that it only took about 2 weeks to pick up more normal, conversational style Japanese.

Okay, this sounds a little more accurate, glad someone has a better memory than me
Basically my point was to not worry and let exposure sort it out. The main problem is having to change your style of speech when you've been used to a certain style for a while. But since the OP has already studied and understands keigo, if placed in an environment where she hears people speak it more frequently, she in theory should eventually start outputting naturally (unless yudantaiteki is right and she won't get past the interview in the first place :S). And if companies do train people once they get there, even better

Fuamnach Wrote:And if companies do train people once they get there, even better

One of my friends who works (ed?) at a fancy 和食 place had to learn a crazy amount of keigo. She's Japanese, so she's obviously got a leg up on us, but she said that they she basically got a handbook of everything she was supposed to say, and when.
According to her, after a week, it came mind-numbingly brainless.

Handbooks/training like this are probably quite rare, but not unheard of.

danieldesu Wrote:super polite (aka keigo),

I learnt keigo basics in my Japanese class at uni and in another business orientated class. Could someone who actually knows keigo clarify some things for me?

As far as I know Keigo seems to be just changing words depending on who you're talking to... Or ist here much more to it at a more complex level?

Thanks

Wow great responses, thanks everyone.
I have quite a few native English speaker friends who have trouble with keigo, and it looks like we are definitely not alone!
I think practice will help, but in terms of mentality I find it difficult to maintain that polite distance from, say, my professor, after I have gotten to know them.
I talk to my teachers at home on a first-name basis and its very casual... that doesn't mean I don't show respect but English doesn't separate respectfulness through verb endings!
I have real difficulty naturally speaking in a way that shows I am respecting the status / outside group-ness of the person opposite me.
Maybe there is no class that could teach me that and its just going to take time....

Maybe you could get a friend/language partner/paid tutor to roleplay some formal situations where you would use keigo.

Are you sure there aren't any class for that? Japanese natives struggle with keigo too and it's even more important for them to get it right for certain jobs. Wouldn't it be possible that some kind of course on proper business etiquette and keigo exists for such people?

Out of curiosity.
Does this TaeKim page cover it all?
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/honorific

Or is it more complicated?

I've been struggling with that page for a whole week. It's not just new endings, it's a whole new vocabulary.

louiserouse Wrote:Maybe there is no class that could teach me that and its just going to take time....

Yes, there is a class. I mentioned it in my post above.

In the business Japanese classes that I took the teacher puts you on the spot to output spoken keigo. Over and over again. And in a variety of situations, including giving a presentation and phone conversations (using a real phone, the teacher is in another room).

I love learning from books (and SRS), but to actually be able to produce keigo on the spot you need practice interacting with real humans. The books alone will not get you there IMHO.

georgative Wrote:Out of curiosity.
Does this TaeKim page cover it all?

No. There's enough Keigo to fill a whole book with.