i really can't be arsed reading this whole thread but...
what are the faked claims of success associated with Heisig's book? All the book ever claims to do is efficiently teach the writing and recognition of 2000 odd characters and it does this very well. Customize his method just a little and it's easy enough to learn a lot of readings at the same time. If you think the keywords are dodgy, then go waste a bunch of time researching your own. Taking the time to go through RTK in a couple of months makes the whole process of japanese learning a million times easier in the long run because a solid foundational knowlegde of kanji is pretty much required for literacy. I've tried more orthodox approaches and it's so much less efficient. The longer you let the task(of learning kanji) take, the more time you give yourself to continually forget what you're learning, perpetuating the forgetting/relearning cycle. In my experience of traditional methods (classes and textbooks) kanji is taught at a snail's pace and kanji structure is generally ignored. Maybe there are some smart teachers or other great textbooks out there but I'm yet to see any deliver results as quick as RTK. I also know many people with higher levels of spoken Japanese than me and most of them have seriously lacking kanji skills such that it seriously holds them back (prevents them from reading books/passing JLPT1 etc). These are all people who have studied japanese longer than I have and have done so via traditional methods (ie university courses for the most part)

This thread is great.

Oh and @nest0r, I call Godwin's Law

@Ben I thought you had better things to do? Like tending to your antiquated website? I did enjoy your entry on へのへのもへじ though.

mezbup Wrote:lol does anyone else find it funny this guy has no substance and resorts purely to semantic arguments in an attempt to mask the fact that he still sucks at Japanese and doesn't see a way to improve at it?

Yeah, hilarious.

mezbup Wrote:On the other hand we have a bunch of gimmick loving hard working individuals that do nothing but 頑張る and it shows. Keep up the good work guys.

Yes, you've got mad skillz at kanji.

mezbup Wrote:Seriously Ben... no one likes you.

Aw shucks.

blackmacros Wrote:This thread is great.

Oh and @nest0r, I call Godwin's Law

Does that count in this case?

blackmacros Wrote:@Ben I thought you had better things to do? Like tending to your antiquated website? I did enjoy your entry on へのへのもへじ though.

Chatroulette's been down for about seven hours, so I've had some free time.

JimmySeal Wrote:With such an immature and inane response to an earnest discussion

Yeah, this was what I call an earnest discussion before that. Nothing trolly about it at all. Then I come along and bring the level down. Oops! Sorry!

liosama Wrote:I won't explain this any further because you'd be too stupid to recognise what character that is.

OK then, thanks for being so considerate about my intellectual level.

Quote:I usually never wave my troll flag, but in this thread and in the other thread you have gone past my Troll indicator.

I'm sorry to hear that I've gone past your troll indicator. I'll try to be more careful in future.

Ben Bullock Wrote:Yes, you've got mad skillz at kanji.

Using "yes" here and then "skillz" near the end of the sentence seems somewhat incongruent. I'd suggest using the more casual "yeah" to start that sentence.

mezbup Wrote:

Ben Bullock Wrote:Yes, you've got mad skillz at kanji.

Using "yes" here and then "skillz" near the end of the sentence seems somewhat incongruent. I'd suggest using the more casual "yeah" to start that sentence.

Thanks for the tip.

@Ben

nest0r Wrote:Ben, those are the same arguments that Hitler used against the Jews [...] so you're worse than Hitler.

Yup. Definitely Godwin's Law.

Way to bring the conversation down nest0r. Jeez. Us serious adults were trying to have a rational conversation you know.

The Heisig method: So good, it drives people who learn with traditional methods insane, when whitnessing its effectiveness.

[ファブリス]

Another case of the infamous KANJI ? The pattern is the same each time.. >_<

Admin: Ben Bullock, please only add to this discussion from this point on if you have something positive and constructive to add, otherwise your posts may be moderated. Guidelines for participating in the forums.

JimmySeal Wrote:I think we're not giving Ben as much credit as he deserves. I didn't realize it until I read this post.

Ben Bullock Wrote:Just a small correction. Here you should say "horse's mouth" with an apostrophe between the e and the s to indicate the possessive. ...

With such an immature and inane response to an earnest discussion, there's no alternative but to conclude that Ben is a mere 12 years old. When you consider that his RTK review was written in 2006, that places him at about 8 years of age of the time. He is clearly a child prodigy and I think we should carefully listen to everything he says.

Wow, this guy (Ben) is getting bullied bad. I will remember to never criticize the RevTK forums (unfairly)

mezbup Wrote:Oh wow this from the horses mouth:

Also I think a good piece of advice is one I found in the book
"Japanese in Action" by Jack Seward, which repeated the advice that he
was given when he learned Japanese during the second world war (before
kanjis had been standardised into the modern forms). The advice was
that in order to learn Kanji, the best way to do it is to write each
character out 100 times. I think that this method is foolproof, if
you have got the stamina

http://books.sljfaq.org/index.cgi?review_id=215

Get the ***** outta here.

Good find Mezbup.
Ben,
You just lost all credibility. You obviously spent twice as much time writing the review as you did scanning over the book.

Jarvik7 Wrote:I've met very few non-Japanese with a strong command of written Japanese. The majority of those I've met who do used RTK.

Knowing how to handwrite a lot of characters is not necessary for good "written Japanese" given that the majority of Japanese writing today is done on computers.

Don't forget what he said in another recent discussion (http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=5013):

Ben Bullock Wrote:

mezbup Wrote:@ben bullock: you totally missed the point. The whole notion of "knowing kanji" is misguiding in the first place. Vocab is a far better indicator of where you're at.

I agree with you entirely.

mezbup Wrote:What's your level of Japanese anyway since you appear so high and mighty?

My level is "beginner" but I have actually done some work on counting the numbers of kanji in Japanese documents.

Couple it with the fact he's had a website that's been around for 6 years and you begin to work out that he's just all talk.

Guess you could call him the Anti-Khatz

yudantaiteki Wrote:Knowing how to handwrite a lot of characters is not necessary for good "written Japanese" given that the majority of Japanese writing today is done on computers.

I beg to differ. Handwritten Japanese is still rampant, whether it be for post-its, letters, notetaking, filling out forms, teachers writing on blackboards, or dozens of other uses. Heck, it's still the norm for resumes to be handwritten, so that employers can judge prospective employees on the style and quality of their handwriting. Of course some of these are situations where the writer could consult a dictionary or IME, but it would be impractical if they couldn't write most of the characters from memory.

The old story that hardly anyone writes Japanese by hand anymore is a huge myth.

JimmySeal Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:Knowing how to handwrite a lot of characters is not necessary for good "written Japanese" given that the majority of Japanese writing today is done on computers.

I beg to differ. Handwritten Japanese is still rampant, whether it be for post-its, letters, notetaking, filling out forms, teachers writing on blackboards, or dozens of other uses. Heck, it's still the norm for resumes to be handwritten, so that employers can judge prospective employees on the style and quality of their handwriting. Of course some of these are situations where the writer could consult a dictionary or IME, but it would be impractical if they couldn't write most of the characters from memory.

The old story that hardly anyone writes Japanese by hand anymore is a huge myth.

I'd agree. I think no matter what language you're talking about the amount of handwriting that gets done is relatively the same.

The big difference (and reason for concern is) with English it makes no difference because when you type something you still have to spell it so any daily communication done via a typing medium still exercises the same knowledge required to write by hand. Japanese however does not and this is obviously what leads to a decay in written ability which is why you see this come up as an issueと思います (sorry, pure habit)

yudantaiteki Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:I've met very few non-Japanese with a strong command of written Japanese. The majority of those I've met who do used RTK.

Knowing how to handwrite a lot of characters is not necessary for good "written Japanese" given that the majority of Japanese writing today is done on computers.

By "written Japanese" I obviously meant "physically writing Japanese characters", so you are engaging in pointless nitpicking. The fact that writing skill is in decline among natives is irrelevant.

ファブリス Wrote:Another case of the infamous KANJI ? The pattern is the same each time.. >_<

Admin: Ben Bullock, please only add to this discussion from this point on if you have something positive and constructive to add, otherwise your posts may be moderated. Guidelines for participating in the forums.

Oh, come on, with the absurd trolling I've been on the end of here you're going to ask ME to observe some guidelines? I think this marks the end of my participation in this forum.

buh bye

I've had to write more in Japanese the past month than I have in English in the last 5 years I spent in the US. Letters, resumes, etc are all hand written, which I find annoying/ridiculous, but what can you do but go along with it? I find it silly to build up the skill, maintain it, etc just for something that can be easily typed up. Thankfully I want to learn to write by hand well too, as I think it helps my Japanese overall.

As far as Ben Bullock vs koohii, I think we should agree to disagree. It seems pretty obvious that both sides won't be changing their minds anytime soon. Also not all of us have used/use RtK (like myself), so I think it's unfair to say this forum is ONLY about RtK, because there's lots of other great ideas/projects going on here!

Ben Bullock Wrote:Oh, come on, with the absurd trolling I've been on the end of here you're going to ask ME to observe some guidelines? I think this marks the end of my participation in this forum.

That's probably because most of your participation here is trollish in one way or another. Trying to use somewhat "neutral" words (saying something is "dodgy" and "gimmicky" instead of "bullshit" and "sucks" for example) or trying to sound mature even though all you do is looking down on people and their methods and efforts while not giving a single example of what you think are "good" methods (when I asked you to share what you thought was "good" you didn't even paid attention). Add to that lots of short replies instead of a couple of a bit longer ones and it gets annoying. In a few words, you're annoying and provocative but don't seem to have anything positive and constructive to add to the discussion.

Nevertheless, I think that some people are heavily overreacting and being pedant and offensive when it's not necessary nor productive. Please don't play the "I'm cool and all my friends are with me so I can bash the nasty lonely outsider because he sucks" because this community really deserves much more than that.

Why hasn't this topic been closed already? Is there any point to more name calling and gratuitous trolling?

Please take special note of how our rating has gone down to one star. That's what we get for being congenital whiners I guess.

Quote:Wrong answers are often posted on the forum.

Haha, someone is REALLY bitter about still being a beginner at Japanese after 16 years of study.

Going from a plain overly biased review to outright lying in his review really shows his true colors. It's especially interesting since he previously removed the reviews from the faq saying that "reviews don't belong in a faq anyways".

He may be trying to "punish" us, but really he's only hurting the readers of his faq by giving them disinformation.