I've been looking around and can't seem to find an answer. With the kanji themselves, the answer seems easy. About 2000, plus more. At least as far as goal-setting is concerned. With the readings--let's just say we're talking about the readings of the jouyou kanji--I don't know the answer. Most kanji seem to have at least 2 readings, some have many more, but only 1-2 are used in compounds, some have 2, but only 1 that's commonly used. Then there are the irregular readings and so forth. So I was wondering if anyone on here had ever taken the time to find out an answer to the question, 'how many readings do you need to know?' Let's assume that a person is interested in reading the newspaper and lighter reading material, rather than literature, wanting to be able to read >95% of the kanji without need for a reference.

I'd guess around 1,500 - 2,000 separate 'readings' to understand 95% of a newspaper. This is within a set of the most frequent 1,000 kanji.

Only my guess though.

Actually probably closer to 2,000-2,500. You'll need at least the major on and kun readings for the most frequent 1,000 kanji to do what you want to do.

jajaaan Wrote:I've been looking around and can't seem to find an answer. With the kanji themselves, the answer seems easy. About 2000, plus more.

I don't think you need to learn 2000 kanji to read Japanese. That's just the kind of thing people say who can't read Japanese.

jajaaan Wrote:At least as far as goal-setting is concerned. With the readings--let's just say we're talking about the readings of the jouyou kanji--I don't know the answer. Most kanji seem to have at least 2 readings, some have many more, but only 1-2 are used in compounds, some have 2, but only 1 that's commonly used. Then there are the irregular readings and so forth. So I was wondering if anyone on here had ever taken the time to find out an answer to the question, 'how many readings do you need to know?' Let's assume that a person is interested in reading the newspaper and lighter reading material, rather than literature, wanting to be able to read >95% of the kanji without need for a reference.

Hmm, that would require some kind of extensive study to verify. Probably you don't need to know all that many readings. I bet that you need to know less than two per kanji on average. But it's not an important point. You have to learn words and you have to learn the spellings of the words so you can read them. There are lots of bullshitters who claim to be able to read Japanese because they can identify the kanji characters in the words, but they don't understand the meaning of anything they say they can read.

Look it up as you go. All stats in this area would simply be estimates (or educated guesses) anyway.

I've got a list of about 70000 (35000x2) compounds. You could go through it. Once you've mastered it you'd be able to read pretty much... anything.

Ben Bullock Wrote:

jajaaan Wrote:I've been looking around and can't seem to find an answer. With the kanji themselves, the answer seems easy. About 2000, plus more.

I don't think you need to learn 2000 kanji to read Japanese. That's just the kind of thing people say who can't read Japanese.

There's a difference between decoding (stopping all the time and using the dictionary), reading with a dictionary (stopping seldom to look something up but other than that reading at good speed uninterrupted for periods) and fluent reading where you don't have to look anything up and can read uninterrupted for long periods at at time.

For the first one, 1000 - 1500 "kanji" is enough.
For the second 2000 - 2500 "kanji" is enough.
For the third 2500 - 3000 "kanji" is enough.
For never ever having to use a dictionary again it's gonna be more like 3000 - 7000 "kanji"

Anyways, the whole point is moot because even if you knew every reading for every kanji but never studied it through vocab, you'll stillllllllllllllllllllllllllll have to reference the dictionary for every new word you come across to check you're reading it right and to know exactly what it means.

hence the "kanji" number isn't important, nor the number of readings but the number of vocab you know is what defines your reading ability at various levels. If you actually want to be able to have real reading ability you need a seriously high amount of knowledge. If you are just talking about the stage of decoding and the early stages of developing real reading skill then that requires far less knowledge in comparison. Having said that it makes it easy to break into actually being able to read Japanese which is nice, mastering it is what takes a long time.

At any rate ~2000 kanji with a minimum of 2 readings 了 being one of the only one's I can think has one, makes for a minimum of 4000 "readings". Quite often there's a couple of on-readings and for kun readings you have to take configurations of okurigana into account.

It's really pointless to think about because learning vocab sorts your problem out. In other words it's not actually something you need to think about at all.

Does anyone actually sit down and think, "よし！ Imma learn 4000 readings for the kanji I know!"?

mezbup Wrote:

Ben Bullock Wrote:I don't think you need to learn 2000 kanji to read Japanese. That's just the kind of thing people say who can't read Japanese.

There's a difference between decoding (stopping all the time and using the dictionary), reading with a dictionary (stopping seldom to look something up but other than that reading at good speed uninterrupted for periods) and fluent reading where you don't have to look anything up and can read uninterrupted for long periods at at time.

For the first one, 1000 - 1500 "kanji" is enough.
For the second 2000 - 2500 "kanji" is enough.
For the third 2500 - 3000 "kanji" is enough.
For never ever having to use a dictionary again it's gonna be more like 3000 - 7000 "kanji"

Where did you get those numbers from? Do you have a reference?

hereticalrants Wrote:Does anyone actually sit down and think, "よし！ Imma learn 4000 readings for the kanji I know!"?

Personally, that was the only way I could get through RTK 1. I set out a clear end goal, divided it up to meet per-week checkpoints, and three months later, I was able to say that I'd met my goal. Without clear goals, I do not get very much done at all.

kazelee, I'm basically looking for educated guesses. I looked at the index for a book I have which lists all the readings for the jouyou kanji and it lists about 3600 on and kun readings, but I'm wondering how many of those are limited to single, uncommon words that can be skipped on the first go-around.

I know vocabulary is the key to learning readings, that many kun readings will come naturally with the vocabulary, and that many on readings will be obvious once I learn more on readings that share a radical, but if I can set a goal and aim to learn a certain number of readings per week, then I'll make much better progress than if I just kind of go until I burn out, or go at half-steam.

Maybe you should just concentrate on learning vocab for each kanji. The Kanji in Context book is great for this because it straight up tells you which words are rare and can be skipped on first learning.

You can use that book to set manageable goals. IE. two chapters a week.

I just can't set goals on the short-term like that. I lose momentum or go too fast and burn myself out. This is why I started this thread.

Then how about setting your goal to finish the book in 6 months or something.

hereticalrants Wrote:Does anyone actually sit down and think, "よし！ Imma learn 4000 readings for the kanji I know!"?

Presumably the same people who think that learning 2000 kanji and a bunch of half-baked and fake/wrong meanings, without readings, is going to be a good idea.

jajaaan Wrote:Personally, that was the only way I could get through RTK 1. I set out a clear end goal, divided it up to meet per-week checkpoints, and three months later, I was able to say that I'd met my goal. Without clear goals, I do not get very much done at all.

Maybe you need to set the goal of trying to read something in Japanese?

jajaaan Wrote:kazelee, I'm basically looking for educated guesses. I looked at the index for a book I have which lists all the readings for the jouyou kanji and it lists about 3600 on and kun readings, but I'm wondering how many of those are limited to single, uncommon words that can be skipped on the first go-around.

Can be skipped for what purpose?

jajaaan Wrote:I know vocabulary is the key to learning readings, that many kun readings will come naturally with the vocabulary, and that many on readings will be obvious once I learn more on readings that share a radical, but if I can set a goal and aim to learn a certain number of readings per week, then I'll make much better progress than if I just kind of go until I burn out, or go at half-steam.

Better progress in what sense? Better numbers? I don't get what you are trying to achieve here. If you want to learn to read Japanese then actually tackling something in the language is certain to be more useful than memorizing thousands of readings of kanji. You've already fallen for the nonsense about 2,000 kanji. Better not make the same mistake again.

Quote:but if I can set a goal and aim to learn a certain number of readings per week, then I'll make much better progress than if I just kind of go until I burn out, or go at half-steam.

Why don't you just learn a certain number of words a week? It's basically the same goal but much more useful.

Ben Bullock Wrote:

mezbup Wrote:

Ben Bullock Wrote:I don't think you need to learn 2000 kanji to read Japanese. That's just the kind of thing people say who can't read Japanese.

There's a difference between decoding (stopping all the time and using the dictionary), reading with a dictionary (stopping seldom to look something up but other than that reading at good speed uninterrupted for periods) and fluent reading where you don't have to look anything up and can read uninterrupted for long periods at at time.

For the first one, 1000 - 1500 "kanji" is enough.
For the second 2000 - 2500 "kanji" is enough.
For the third 2500 - 3000 "kanji" is enough.
For never ever having to use a dictionary again it's gonna be more like 3000 - 7000 "kanji"

Where did you get those numbers from? Do you have a reference?

It's called experience. Stop being a troll and get some. 火炎攻撃！

Ben Bullock Wrote:

hereticalrants Wrote:Does anyone actually sit down and think, "よし！ Imma learn 4000 readings for the kanji I know!"?

Presumably the same people who think that learning 2000 kanji and a bunch of half-baked and fake/wrong meanings, without readings, is going to be a good idea.

jajaaan Wrote:Personally, that was the only way I could get through RTK 1. I set out a clear end goal, divided it up to meet per-week checkpoints, and three months later, I was able to say that I'd met my goal. Without clear goals, I do not get very much done at all.

Maybe you need to set the goal of trying to read something in Japanese?

jajaaan Wrote:kazelee, I'm basically looking for educated guesses. I looked at the index for a book I have which lists all the readings for the jouyou kanji and it lists about 3600 on and kun readings, but I'm wondering how many of those are limited to single, uncommon words that can be skipped on the first go-around.

Can be skipped for what purpose?

jajaaan Wrote:I know vocabulary is the key to learning readings, that many kun readings will come naturally with the vocabulary, and that many on readings will be obvious once I learn more on readings that share a radical, but if I can set a goal and aim to learn a certain number of readings per week, then I'll make much better progress than if I just kind of go until I burn out, or go at half-steam.

Better progress in what sense? Better numbers? I don't get what you are trying to achieve here. If you want to learn to read Japanese then actually tackling something in the language is certain to be more useful than memorizing thousands of readings of kanji. You've already fallen for the nonsense about 2,000 kanji. Better not make the same mistake again.

Hi Ben, I asked about people's opinions on a number that I don't know. I didn't ask about study methods. Thanks anyway, though!

mezbup Wrote:

Ben Bullock Wrote:

mezbup Wrote:There's a difference between decoding (stopping all the time and using the dictionary), reading with a dictionary (stopping seldom to look something up but other than that reading at good speed uninterrupted for periods) and fluent reading where you don't have to look anything up and can read uninterrupted for long periods at at time.

For the first one, 1000 - 1500 "kanji" is enough.
For the second 2000 - 2500 "kanji" is enough.
For the third 2500 - 3000 "kanji" is enough.
For never ever having to use a dictionary again it's gonna be more like 3000 - 7000 "kanji"

Where did you get those numbers from? Do you have a reference?

It's called experience.

No, it's called bullshit.

Ben Bullock Wrote:No, it's called bullshit.

Out of curiosity, how many Kanji do you think are necessary to, let's say, read a good book?

jajaaan Wrote:

Ben Bullock Wrote:

jajaaan Wrote:I know vocabulary is the key to learning readings, that many kun readings will come naturally with the vocabulary, and that many on readings will be obvious once I learn more on readings that share a radical, but if I can set a goal and aim to learn a certain number of readings per week, then I'll make much better progress than if I just kind of go until I burn out, or go at half-steam.

Better progress in what sense? Better numbers? I don't get what you are trying to achieve here. If you want to learn to read Japanese then actually tackling something in the language is certain to be more useful than memorizing thousands of readings of kanji. You've already fallen for the nonsense about 2,000 kanji. Better not make the same mistake again.

Hi Ben, I asked about people's opinions on a number that I don't know. I didn't ask about study methods. Thanks anyway, though!

That's OK, but there is no number which anyone can give you unless you state what kind of reading level you're aiming for, and the number 2,000 kanji you've been given is already misguided.

Evil_Dragon Wrote:Out of curiosity, how many Kanji do you think are necessary to, let's say, read a good book?

I really don't know how many kanji are necessary to read a good book. I'm very, very, very suspicious of anyone who pulls numbers out of a hat. The only actual analysis I've done was a project where I indexed every kanji out of about ten thousand documents in Japanese. The total number of kanji used was 2,400. That's from 10,000 documents. And many of the kanji were only used in one or two of the documents, or for one person's name.

@ben bullock: you totally missed the point. The whole notion of "knowing kanji" is misguiding in the first place. Vocab is a far better indicator of where you're at. What's your level of Japanese anyway since you appear so high and mighty?

mezbup Wrote:@ben bullock: you totally missed the point. The whole notion of "knowing kanji" is misguiding in the first place. Vocab is a far better indicator of where you're at.

I agree with you entirely.

mezbup Wrote:What's your level of Japanese anyway since you appear so high and mighty?

My level is "beginner" but I have actually done some work on counting the numbers of kanji in Japanese documents.

Ben Bullock Wrote:That's OK, but there is no number which anyone can give you unless you state what kind of reading level you're aiming for

jajaaan Wrote:Let's assume that a person is interested in reading the newspaper and lighter reading material, rather than literature, wanting to be able to read >95% of the kanji without need for a reference.

Ben Bullock Wrote:and the number 2,000 kanji you've been given is already misguided.

jajaaan Wrote:About 2000, plus more. At least as far as goal-setting is concerned.

Hi Ben, Please take an extra minute and re-read the OP. I think you will find all the guidelines you are looking for. Oh yeah, and stop trolling my thread please!

jeez guys I already answered this on the third post

Ben Bullock Wrote:

mezbup Wrote:@ben bullock: you totally missed the point. The whole notion of "knowing kanji" is misguiding in the first place. Vocab is a far better indicator of where you're at.

I agree with you entirely.

mezbup Wrote:What's your level of Japanese anyway since you appear so high and mighty?

My level is "beginner" but I have actually done some work on counting the numbers of kanji in Japanese documents.

I thought so. My level is just starting to move beyond decoding and heading into the realms of what i'd dub as "reading with a dictionary" but I still won't be there until I've acquired a few more thousand vocab. Currently my Anki stats say I can read 1830+ kanji... I've noticed a biggg difference in level of comfort when reading a text from when it was at 1100 - 1300 at the beginning of December last year. At the current rate I'm acquiring vocab by the time I've reached my target of 15,000 I'll be able to read well over 2500 kanji. So vocab is a far, far, farrr more accurate picture of how well you can read but "kanji known" has some proportional relationship to that number. I can be sure of the numbers I know personally because Anki keeps a good track for me which I find really helpful.

I appreciate you've done some work with analysing documents. What kind where they? I'd urge you to bear in mind that "documents" represent only documents and not anything else. I say this because the tech blogs I read daily use different kanji than the news paper and the news paper uses different kanji to games that I play and games that I play use different Kanji than the novel on my desk I flip through from time to time. Novels are interesting in that they use lots of kanji outside the jouyou on quite a common basis.

It really differs depending on what you're reading but the Kanji Kentei's 1.5級 is a good example of how many kanji is considered a high level of reading. That figure sits just short of 3000.