magamo Wrote:Different methods work for different people. Different strokes for different folks. To each his own. There is no such thing as THE method. No one knows what will work for you.

I recommend some things because they seem to be working well for me. At least I believe so. But I don't know if they would also work for your Japanese study.

This is also what I wanted to say.
The future is in tailoring education to better suit the individual characteristics of each student.

Pharmaceutical companies are already trying to create medicines that can be tailored to the DNA of each recipient, thus minimizing side effects and maximizing efficiency.

In the same way, it is impossible to recommend the same diet for every single person on this planet. Each body has its own way of dealing with food, and what might be a main component in one person's diet will be completely rejected in another person's body.

Doing RTK was one of the best decisions I ever took in my life. SRS as well (of course, everything hangs on what material you insert in it).

I have been visiting this forum almost every day, for a year and a half, and I read tons of different advices regarding learning methods.

Some of them seemed outrageous, and therefore I did not consider them for testing. Some other methods were not compatible with my personal schedules, or interests. But many others, I did try and see if they worked.

And that is the healthy spirit that I see in this forum. Upon introduction, people will literally debate a method to death. It has happened many times. Others actually made daily postings detailing what is going on with their chosen method, and talk about the plus and minuses of each procedure.

And I agree with the posters who said that there was a strong focus in CONTEXT within these topics. It is one of the things that I see regularly reaffirmed within these pages.

I am a highly motivated student, I flunked 2 attempts at learning Japanese, only to start from scratch, but I never gave up. Having read the various debates occurring in these forums, I was able to make up my own mind, and through some basic trial and experience, quickly create a study plan that works for me.

I try to have the best of all worlds. I go to Japanese classes 3 times a week (which does bring real benefits for fine-tuning some stuff which you already learned on your own, but overall, in each 3 hour-class, a lot of time is wasted with the teacher having to manage between 20 to 30 students at one given moment, while the others have to wait for their turn.)

Since I cannot bear to be locked in the same classroom for extended periods of time, the rest of the time is devoted to self-study. I do 2 or 3 sessions of direct language exchange with Japanese friends in coffees or bars. I also use Skype whenever possible. I maintain a Mixi page with a blog about my country, where I ocasionally write in Japanese. Recently, I moved to Japan (although I had several japanese friends back in my homeland), so I go to clubs and concerts, and I am constantly meeting new people. I also sometimes meet people on the street, which usually leads to invitations to meet even more people.

I started practising Koto, and I have been playing concerts regularly, in an environment practically devoid of non-japanese people. And I am not afraid to embarass myself with mistakes in Japanese, since I try to be a light-hearted person, and Japanese people have been consistently supportive of my efforts.

Besides that, there is SRS study with good context sentences taken from authoritative grammar sources, a good Denshi Jisho, a Sony Vaio with Japanese OS, and a Japanese Keitai.

There are millions of ways to do self-study, none of which I would ever equate to being locked in a room without ever communicating with anyone.

And the beauty of it is that against all odds, people are tailoring learning methods to their own needs. Sometimes, you will inevitably fail, but that is how life is. Quick, lightening success often leads to bitter regrets later on. If a person is not being successful in their efforts, then it is probably because they have not failed enough times yet.

Following your inner voice and personal experience, learning from other's successes and mistakes, having an open mind for trying new approaches and being passionate and determined are the best advices I could ever give. And finally, never be too preachy about your personal methods. This is not a race, it is an open experiment.

Jarvik7 Wrote:I find actually using the language to be more useful than digging through highly suspect sentence collections or wooden dictionary examples.

Well, yes, but there are other ways to get sentences. 流れを掻き分ける櫂を追いかけるように、川面に小さな渦巻きが生まれては、踊る泡を抱き込み消えていく様を、男は船のへりからじっと見下ろしていたが、ドンと響く次の太鼓に合わせるように、濁った色合いの大河に向け、おもむろに小便を放ち始めた　is hardly a wooden dictionary example. I think sentences can be awfully useful if you get them from the real world.

Fillanzea Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:I find actually using the language to be more useful than digging through highly suspect sentence collections or wooden dictionary examples.

Well, yes, but there are other ways to get sentences. 流れを掻き分ける櫂を追いかけるように、川面に小さな渦巻きが生まれては、踊る泡を抱き込み消えていく様を、男は船のへりからじっと見下ろしていたが、ドンと響く次の太鼓に合わせるように、濁った色合いの大河に向け、おもむろに小便を放ち始めた　is hardly a wooden dictionary example. I think sentences can be awfully useful if you get them from the real world.

Yeah, but then again, you're spending a lot more time on it, which was Jarviks point (I think).

In general I support a method of "X and Y and Z" rather than "X, and not Y or Z" -- you don't have to make a choice between textbooks and authentic material, between dictionaries and sentences, between classes and self-study etc. You can use them all and take what's useful from each source.

Jarvik7 Wrote:What you (@OP) are afraid of is a myth perpetuated by people who only have a passing interest in learning a language (the majority).

Uhhh, in addition to being somewhat oblique (what myth are you referring to) you are insinuating I know nothing and am not serious about language learning - why else would I listen to people who only have a passing interest.

Jarvik7 Wrote:I'm at 5 languages if it matters though.

Good for you. I met a bartender in Prague who speaks six. I suppose we should both be envious.

Jarvik7 Wrote:"What you're afraid of" has meanings other than "trembling with fear", such as "worrying about something" or "expecting a negative outcome".

Thank you for the English lesson. I'll be sure to pass this on to my students in due course. Might you be so kind as to teach me 'sarcasm' with your next submission?

To Fillanzea - thank you about the info on Krashen. TPR is actually quite famous and well-respected in EFL circles; I wasn't aware he created it, as it's not mentioned in Krashen's Wikipedia entry.

To Tobberoth - I think we agree on things in general but are just splitting hairs. Of course Input is absolutely fundamental - the more real Japanese the better - but I would advocate a more gradual approach, using graded materials until the students are ready for the real things.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the progenitor of AJATT spent something like 3,000 hours of intense study in learning Japanese. Study anything for 3,000 hours intensely and you're bound to be good at it. That doesn't really sound very efficient to me, so I need something for people who have full time jobs and can't dedicate such an immense chunk of their life to language learning. So if you're trying to convince me of the merits of AJATT - don't. If I think the blind are leading the blind, guess who I consider to be Stevie Wonder. Let's both save ourselves time and never mention AJATT again.

To Mezbup - couldn't agree more. I hate the JLPT; but some things I'm looking at in the future may require it, so I am trying to prepare for it, just in case. However, studying for the JLPT is forcing me to learn things I probably wouldn't bother to learn otherwise. Despite the fact that living in Japan has helped me pick up a working vocabulary, there's not really any outside motivation to increase it, as I now know enough to get by. Therefore the JLPT motivates me to do a little more than just the normal reading/listening I would otherwise do.

To JimmySeal - thanks for the tips. However, I've got a huge stack of 村上春樹 books that I've yet to get round to reading, so at the moment I'm looking for stuff I can download on my iPod touch and use on the go. I have used some of 松岡龍美's book when I studied for JLPT2, and they kicked my ass. However, they helped me pass, so I'll probably be checking out some of her books again.

So if anyone else can recommend some good online study sets, by all means let me know.

mc2mc Wrote:To JimmySeal - thanks for the tips. However, I've got a huge stack of 村上春樹 books that I've yet to get round to reading, so at the moment I'm looking for stuff I can download on my iPod touch and use on the go.

Not sure what's not "on the go" about 村上春樹. 文庫本 are pretty dern portable if you ask me. But if you're dead set on going through hundreds of artificial flashcards instead of genuine input, who am I to tell you otherwise?

mc2mc - Krashen is not the creator of TPR as far as I know, but he is a huge advocate for it, and I didn't want it to seem like he's advocating an AJATT-like thing when that's not the case.

Tobberoth - Yeah, it does take more time. Personally I don't mind taking the time to have some context for words, but it is a trade-off.

Ahhh that makes sense. Actually I sat JLPT2 last year (still no results yet) and the main reason I signed up for it was because at the time it was way above my level and anything remotely close to a pass would have been like pulling a rabbit out of a hat. It too turns out I learned a hell of a lot of useful stuff that I wouldn't have otherwise set out to study. So it did have it's merits for me but now that I've kinda got the buzz out of my system I'd only study for it again if I needed it for something. Though seeing as you might, go for it.

The shared resources that are available for things like JLPT aren't exactly gonna be great. Though, they probably do include most of the necessary vocab you need, there's also the grammar and the listening section too... You can always make your own deck or customise a pre-made made to include more detailed information.

Sorry, my 建て前 isn't very good. As portable as paperback 村上 is, it still takes me ages to get through a chapter, and I think it's most effective to read texts at your level, and then move on to more and more difficult texts. 村上 is still at least a few months away. I believe if you understand less than 95% of text you should opt for something easier, and right now I grasp maybe 70%. In the meantime I'm reading something else, but as I don't want to dedicate all my time to any one skill, I'm trying to practice other stuff as well. Thus the search for Japanese apps.

As somebody who uses this website everyday for advice and help, I recommend it.

And maybe when you refer to "the blind leading the blind" perhaps we're just a bunch of blind people with seeing dogs? I dunno. We might be blind in some regard, but we have a helping hand to direct us to our goal no matter the complexities. Everybody is different, and maybe not every method works but most of the users here are experienced enough to know what to recommend. A classroom forces everybody in the room to mold to the teacher's learning method, whereas self-study allows people to develop their own.

Just to end my rambling about blind guys with dogs, let me say that I would be in a much worse-off place had I not found these forums. Also, I've never been on a forum with people as helpful as they are here, and as little bickering as is present. It's amazing how people can come together to achieve a common goal.

mc2mc Wrote:I think it's most effective to read texts at your level, and then move on to more and more difficult texts. 村上 is still at least a few months away. I believe if you understand less than 95% of text you should opt for something easier

Over the last month I've really come to see the importance of this. I can read plenty but always tripping over unknown, rare, less useful vocab and having to look it up just breaks the flow. Really the difference is in "decoding .vs reading" isn't it? Level appropriate texts help you develop a kind of fluency in reading speed (even if it's not real world) it encourages real reading as opposed to just decoding. My mum used to teach for a long time and I believe I remember her telling me that they teach reading in schools with the same philosophy.

I think in terms of materials though it's not always practical. I guess for me that is the big drive behind the vocab deck, to bring virtually all texts into that range within the next 12 months. I can see things really starting to happen at that point.

mezbup Wrote:Over the last month I've really come to see the importance of this. I can read plenty but always tripping over unknown, rare, less useful vocab and having to look it up just breaks the flow. Really the difference is in "decoding .vs reading" isn't it? Level appropriate texts help you develop a kind of fluency in reading speed (even if it's not real world) it encourages real reading as opposed to just decoding. My mum used to teach for a long time and I believe I remember her telling me that they teach reading in schools with the same philosophy.

Yes, thank you for introducing 'decoding.' I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, but I can help but feeling that some posters are confusing 'decoding' with 'reading.' I haven't really seen it here, but I think the problem is rife at http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/ My Mandarin is only basic, but give me a dictionary, a grammar handbook and enough time as well and I'll be able to offer you a decent translation of a Mandarin text. Am I reading the book? No, just decoding; give me another Chinese text and I'll probably have just as much difficulty understanding it. But my Mandarin has improved, right? Well, only just marginally - and surely I could have spent my time more wisely.

Sorry to derail what is becoming a great discussion, but I was getting annoyed as i ate my breakfast...

mc2mc Wrote:... I have a Cambridge Certificate in English Language Teaching to Adults (CELTA), and although there's tremendous variation in how individual CELTA-qualified instructors teach, all teachers are trained to use the 'communicative method', something I'll explain more fully below.

Although I can't objectively rate myself as a teacher, I've had enough positive feedback from ex-students to convince me that I probably know what I'm doing.

If you're going to come on a forum, criticize the posters, and then trot out your CELTA as proof of competence, maybe everyone should know what a CELTA is.

It's a one-month course offered around the world, created / administered by Cambridge University English Language Teaching Syndicate, and franchised to various training facilities around the world. It's an INTRODUCTORY course in teaching ESL.

I know. I've got one (Pass A!). It's an excellent course, really useful, really practical, with a good dose of theory to it, and I agree with the methodologies it espouses, but it is still just a foundations course.

Don't criticize other people's credentials when your own are paper-thin.

There is huge value in these forums if you spend the time to sift through them and mine them. A lot of that value comes from folks without credentials.

So...all of that to say...lurk more, post less, and watch the tone of your posts. This is the most helpful Japanese language-learning forum that I've found, and the key reason for that is the level of respect the posters show each other here, regardless of credentials.

LaLoche Wrote:It's an INTRODUCTORY course in teaching ESL.

And I found it to be a good introduction - ten years ago when I did it.

LaLoche Wrote:Don't criticize other people's credentials when your own are paper-thin.

That's a bit pointed and personal, n'est-ce pas? Are you holding my CV in your hands as you breakfast? If you're warning me about my tone, may I introduce you to the kettle, Mr. Pot? Perhaps you could also work on your respect language.

Was the OP offensive? I hope not, but I have apologised already to anyone who may have been offended. Yes, perhaps we should all lurk more.

However, when people have personally said daff things about me, I've responded in kind.

Again, all I tried to do is to get people thinking about their shared exercises. Enough diversions already.

mc2mc Wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but the progenitor of AJATT spent something like 3,000 hours of intense study in learning Japanese. Study anything for 3,000 hours intensely and you're bound to be good at it. That doesn't really sound very efficient to me, so I need something for people who have full time jobs and can't dedicate such an immense chunk of their life to language learning.

If I remember correctly, the AJATT guy said 10,000 hours of listening is required to develop decent listening skills. I think he's underestimating the amount of time a learner needs or he's just trying not to intimidate readers. [Edited out a line because that's sooooo not true!] I don't know how fluent you want to be in Japanese, but if 3000 hours of study is too much for you, I don't think you will get very far in the first place.

mc2mc Wrote:However, your comprehension of English sarcasm stinks. I do like SRS when it's used appropriately, but I'm afraid it won't help you appreciate English humor. If you don't like my reply, then let me warn you against going into forums with less sympathetic English speakers, as if you think I'm too cynical...

Huh? I know my English sucks. But I'm kind of guessing your sarcasm sucks harder.

mc2mc Wrote:'I hate you?' Most inappropriate. Yes, I'm the type of teacher who has come to teach in Japan - not for the culture, the history, the landscape - but to reinforce a belief that Japanese people are incapable of learning my tongue, especially when I happen to be teaching it. Explain to me the logic in that. Or better yet, don't. There's enough hate in the world, and I can do without yours. I will commend you for your command of English. However, even a qualified 'I hate you' is very uncalled for. Do me a favor and stop reading this thread.

Is that supposed to be a good example of sarcasm? It sounds like a pretty lame argument to me. I don't think an English teacher should say to a Japanese person, "Is my English that bad?" as a reply to "Is your native language Japanese?" regardless of context/tone. You're speaking the language you're teaching as a professional teacher. I'm using the language as a foreign language. Don't forget that.

Anyway, I'll read your posts in Louise's voice (voiced by milkycabbage) so any kind of comment shows your affections to me. The harsher, the better. If you don't understand what I'm talking about, just ignore that. It's a magic spell I use when I don't want to take things personally. Sadly, Shana doesn't work well for me in English. Well, it doesn't matter because Geneon pulled out of the US market so probably there will be no season 2 for R1... Ugh!

Ah, but I digress. I think you're misunderstanding the recommended use of SRS. Only a few would strongly recommend premade decks and such if your Japanese is already better than certain level. If I were you, I'd wean myself off contrived phrases/sentences/whatever as soon as possible and start using native material exclusively. Of course, if passing a standardized test is important to your study, it might not be bad to use contrived learning materials. If anything, it could be the fastest method to SRS example sentences/explanations in well-designed textbooks for the test you want to pass. But it's not what people here would often recommend to serious learners who already have a good command of Japanese. Besides, some people think SRS becomes less and less useful as your Japanese improves.

Also, different people use SRS in different ways. You sound like you think the majority of learners here is blindly following some kind of bad advice. I do recommend you lurk more. People are learning foreign languages on their own ways. If you look at my SRS cards, you'd have serious doubts about my sanity. Well, maybe you already have. Whatever.

Anyhow, I know I'm not very good at taking advantage of SRS. I have been using SRS only for 20 odd months anyway. Besides, I'm pretty much slacking off lately. So if some of my posts in other threads made you think we were doing stupid things, please read posts by more experienced SRS users. Some people are using useful materials very wisely, and some people don't like frequently recommended approaches. If you think most of us ignore context when studying vocabulary and stuff, read threads, say, about subs2srs.

Oh, I almost forgot. If you're studying for JLPT1 and can easily translate what I asked in an earlier post, I'm sure your Japanese is much better than my English two years ago. I kind of think it'd be better for you to learn Japanese using native material rather than some kind of online resource, though I'm sure there are many useful learning materials out there.

I don't quite understand why you started this thread. Why do you have to preach your precious method here? They're rhetorical questions to get us thinking about our shared exercises, huh? Your sarcasm sucks.

You asked if we know what we're doing here. I'd say it's you that don't know what we're doing here.

mc2mc:

Based on your long posts on page 2, you seem to have *no idea* what most people on this forum are advocating or doing.

mc2mc Wrote:But think about it: language is basically a means of communication. Self-study, by definition, is working alone. How insane is it to say 'I've mastered a form of communication by not communicating with anyone?'
...
If you have Skype, use it. There are heaps and heaps of Japanese people who are dying for the chance to practice English with someone. If you're not using it, you haven't mastered it and you won't be remembering it. Don't think you can become fluent in a language just because you've cut and paste a list of JLPT vocab from MLC into an Anki deck. If you're not actively using the language, you're just losing it.

I have frequently heard this advice right here on this forum. Use skype to chat with others. Use lang8 to write to others. I personally have a penpal who I write to every single day for half a year now. Reading and listening are also forms of communication. The very heart of the AJATT method which most people claim to be using is *massive amounts* of reading and listening.

mc2mc Wrote:A language is a means of communication, and what's the point of saying you have 'mastered' 300 items when you're unable to produce a single one them?

A person's active vocabulary is a very small subset of their full vocabulary. English is my native language, but there are A LOT of English words that I probably can't use properly in a sentence. It's obvious that using an SRS isn't going to increase your active vocabulary. But, when I am in a situation when I need to use a word, I can think about it for a minute. Maybe I will remember the word from my SRS reviews, maybe I wont. But if it's an important word for me to have to use, I will eventually be able to output it, because the need to use it will come up again and again.
Clearly one can not say they have "mastered" something if they can't produce it. But where have you ever heard anyone claim such a thing?

mc2mc Wrote:Perhaps I dismissed you too early, Zarxrax, as you mentioned something I would advise everyone here to take to heart: CONTEXT. Never learn anything outside of context!

And this is the point where I wonder what the heck you have managed to read here at this forum? From the very first day that I visited this place, I have heard people advocating learning in context! I mean, in almost every thread, all the time, people are talking about how important context is...

mc2mc Wrote:What am I saying? Well, I'm trying to find JLPT1 materials and I use a lot of websites featuring shared materials (Quizlet, Smart.fm, Flashcards DB...). Most of the materials are, how should we say... dreck? You want examples? OK. Go to smart.fm, look up JLPT1, and you find heaps of vocab flashcards that are basically simply J-E translations. Japanese on one side and the EDICT translation on the other. To make matters worse, all the sets are arranged alphabetically (eg., all the 'A' words are in one set) C'mon? This is how you learn vocabulary? I tell you there are better ways and you feel the need to get defensive?

I think I can honestly say I haven't seen those things advocated much here... with the exception of smart.fm, where I have really only seen people advocating using the Core Japanese lessons, which are professionally produced.

In other words, your entire rant about the things that are advocated on this forum appears, to me, to be completely misinformed.

mc2mc Wrote:Does anyone here actually know what they're doing?

I know that he said a bunch of other stuff, but that single line is a bit of a red flag. It was his first post. This website has been around for 4, 5 years, and he just comes here telling us that none of us know what we're talking about? That because he's been teaching languages "professionally" for 10 years, that he knows more about the process than any of us?

I think this guy is full of shit, and just trying to troll us. The amount of posts this thread garnered in the amount of time it's been up is a pretty good sign that it's working, too. We should just ignore him, and go about our business.

If you still think he's legitimately trying to figure us out or whatever, then please, try to keep from actually getting frustrated by anything he says. If you can't help but get frustrated, try not to show it in your posts. Also, don't waste too much time responding to him, or he will win.

Also, m2mc, what you're saying is "The way I do things and the things I believe are correct, and anything else is wrong." What we usually say is "This is the way I do things because it works for me. How do you guys do it? You watch movies? Wow! Awesome!"

Is it really a surprise to mc2mc that generalizing and judging people was a bad idea? Especially with an obvious lack of knowledge about what is actually discussed here.

mc2mc Wrote:

mezbup Wrote:Over the last month I've really come to see the importance of this. I can read plenty but always tripping over unknown, rare, less useful vocab and having to look it up just breaks the flow. Really the difference is in "decoding .vs reading" isn't it? Level appropriate texts help you develop a kind of fluency in reading speed (even if it's not real world) it encourages real reading as opposed to just decoding. My mum used to teach for a long time and I believe I remember her telling me that they teach reading in schools with the same philosophy.

Yes, thank you for introducing 'decoding.' I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, but I can help but feeling that some posters are confusing 'decoding' with 'reading.' I haven't really seen it here, but I think the problem is rife at http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/ My Mandarin is only basic, but give me a dictionary, a grammar handbook and enough time as well and I'll be able to offer you a decent translation of a Mandarin text. Am I reading the book? No, just decoding; give me another Chinese text and I'll probably have just as much difficulty understanding it. But my Mandarin has improved, right? Well, only just marginally - and surely I could have spent my time more wisely.

Very true.

I recently played through a video game that was for the most part based around reading and that was very much so at my level which was great. I still learned close to 400 new words from it and I think there's definite value in an endeavor like that.

Most of us here generally try and use fast track methods accompanied by resources like KO2001 or Smart.FM to get to the point where doing things like that is possible so we can get into the real acquisition of the language. Really vocab is the main killer, there's just so much of it.

http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/for...15869&PN=2

tbh if people posted shit like the poster in the above link here it would be seen as the troll post ever. I hope you've come to see that the posters here talk amongst themselves a little more soundly than this. Whats worse is "2 people voted this useful". hahaha.

For those who don't want to read it. This guy say's "I learned Spanish in 4 months by speaking English 95% of the time and Spanish 5%". Riiiiight. And I drove South by driving so far north I went right round the globe. Haha.

mc2mc Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:Being a teacher for umpteen years doesn't mean you are a good one.

I think it is incredibly unfair to tar all language teachers with the same brush. Like many other posters here, I have had my share of bad language teachers; but to insist that all language teachers are incompetent - just because some are - is incredibly simplistic. You've discerned from one post that someone you've never met is a bad teacher? Well, then maybe I should summon some of my ex-students to prove otherwise.

Taking a general statement quite personally aren't you? It was general, not directed at 'you.' How you gathered that all language teachers are incompetent from that is way beyond me.

I must ask, why, though. Why are you so focused on proof?

Quote:

kazelee Wrote:The tried and true, endlessly credentialed approach is losing. I make the mark, but I don't really learn much.

You don't really learn much?! Thanks for being so frank.

I'm speaking in terms of the amount of useful content.

There is criticism in the area of production in standard language learning on the Anti-Moon website. The majority of things I seem to be producing in class are phrases I've previously written down or memorized. Seems not too different from shadowing, which people agree is not really a form of production.

On top of that, there are less than 2000 words in the book being pumped out slowly over 2-3 semesters, so SRS isn't really necessary to remember them all.

That's Spanish.

With Japanese I learned 2000 characters in 2.5 months. And then 3000 words and up to JLPT 3 grammar in the 6 months after.

Big difference. Roughly the same amount of time.

I typical rebuttal to this would be, "well that's just a bad/slow/blah program." To which I say, "well that just the majority of programs."

Most language learning is self study, anyway.

Quote:Then I definitely won't take any self-study tips from you in the future.

That's your choice. The majority of information I give out is just a restatement of information by other polyglots. Maybe it's better you hear it from the horses mouth.

In the future, I'd like to politely ask that you monitor the tone of your posts. By politely ask what I really mean is, "tone it down, dude." The combination of abrasiveness and lack of noninflammatory posts can kill any credibility you have before you have chance to wear it on your chest.

Take a step back, observe and keep quiet for a bit.

Magamo Wrote:Anyway, JLPT1 is pretty easy if you ask me. I don't think you need an efficient learning method for that.

Duuuude. Sooooo not true. Unless you have the right tools that is. Then it's just a matter of time .

vgambit Wrote:I think this guy is full of shit, and just trying to troll us. The amount of posts this thread garnered in the amount of time it's been up is a pretty good sign that it's working, too. We should just ignore him, and go about our business.

That'd be a shame. Though it seems more and more likely.

Anyone who takes any advice posted on an internet forum at face value is an idiot. The internet is full of idiots. It's called the background noise of a forum. You want to talk about study methods, start a thread about study methods. You want to start an immature "my method is great, your method is for fags" discussion, try somewhere else.

We use what we choose to use, what works best for us.

And that is why this forum has amongst the most successful language learners, it's full of over-achievers. All is well.

Also, I'd like to know anybody who has became fluent by just attending classes alone, especially a language like Japanese.

Edit: I also have to agree with other posters that the tone of your post was very arrogant. Like "I'm certified and you're not, so listen to me, I know what I'm talking about, you don't". I don't know how long you've been learning languages, but I personally feel and I'm sure others do as well, that I've been studying long enough to make my own decisions. Thanks.

Magamo - I'd have to say you're written English is better than many native speakers! It either inspires me tremendously ... or makes me painfully aware of my limitations. And I don't find you particularly "wooden" - you're probably one of more ... emotionally volatile characters I've come across. Definitely Post Pinocchio

bebio - enjoyed your post. We should assemble some of these as testimonials for Fabrice's Forum.

YDTT's XYZ Method: gimme summa that Cool Aid. :-)

LaLoche Wrote:It's an INTRODUCTORY course in teaching ESL.

mc2mc Wrote:And I found it to be a good introduction - ten years ago when I did it.

Me, too, ten years ago when I did it. We agree on something. But I'm not the one waving it around.

LaLoche Wrote:Don't criticize other people's credentials when your own are paper-thin.

mc2mc Wrote:That's a bit pointed and personal, n'est-ce pas? Are you holding my CV in your hands as you breakfast?

I'm holding the part that you brought to the discussion.

mc2mc Wrote:If you're warning me about my tone, may I introduce you to the kettle, Mr. Pot? Perhaps you could also work on your respect language.

I'm as respectful as the OP.

mc2mc Wrote:Was the OP offensive? I hope not, but I have apologised already to anyone who may have been offended. Yes, perhaps we should all lurk more.

However, when people have personally said daff things about me, I've responded in kind.

As have we.

mc2mc Wrote:Again, all I tried to do is to get people thinking about their shared exercises.

Something troll-like about that.

mc2mc Wrote:Enough diversions already.

Agreed.

Zarxrax Wrote:mc2mc:

Based on your long posts on page 2, you seem to have *no idea* what most people on this forum are advocating or doing.

Duh... I haven't read the thousand threads here. I've stated repeatedly that I'm new here, and instead of pointing me towards some threads to show me how I'm barking up the wrong tree, you'd prefer to flame me. Perhaps I won't be recommending this forum to my friends, after all.

Nor apparently have you read my previous entry where I stated I chose this forum because it's read by lots of people and if you want a quick reply it's probably the best place to go. Was my original critique aimed at any particular posters from this forum? Well, not really. In general, I have come across some naff things in this and that Japanese language forum, and I thought if I were to choose one place to ask if people really have any experience to back up what they're talking about, I would choose here, as it would guarantee a prompt response. If anything, the posters here should be flattered - I'm implying you've got a popular site.

Am I arguing my method is inherently different from yours and - not to mention - superior? I don't think so. Again, I'm new here. I haven't gone through all the posts with a fine tooth comb. Are you advocating the same thing as me? Quite possibly. Is it necessary to flame a newbie to tell him/her that? I don't think so, but some people appear to disagree.

Are all the posts here terrible? I certainly hope not, for then I'd really be wasting my time here. But, I have come across a few naff posts here and there on the RTK forum. Therefore, I felt I could justifiably ask the question of how much experience posters here have. Was I a bit abrasive? I didn't mean to be, but it seems many people felt so.

So: do you personally feel responsible for some of the naff posts I've come across here? No? So why do you feel you have to defend your method? I say I've come across some terrible advice and you assume I talking about you personally?

Zarxrax Wrote:From the very first day that I visited this place, I have heard people advocating learning in context! I mean, in almost every thread, all the time, people are talking about how important context is...

Well, I haven't come across these posts. If I had, I wouldn't waste my time trying to re-invent the wheel. Although I don't need people to tell me the importance of context, if you actually read my posts and helped steer a newbie towards some links for shared JLPT1 links, my, wouldn't we all be happier.

vgambit Wrote:I think this guy is full of shit, and just trying to troll us.

Yes, and my feet stink, my nose is too big, and my ears are hairy. Anything else constructive to say?

vgambit Wrote:Also, m2mc, what you're saying is "The way I do things and the things I believe are correct, and anything else is wrong." What we usually say is "This is the way I do things because it works for me. How do you guys do it? You watch movies? Wow! Awesome!"

I never said the way you're doing things is wrong. I asked one simple question - have any of the guides here been to the top of the mountain? Because if you haven't, maybe I should look somewhere else to find somewhere to guide me to the top.

Apparently, quite a few people have been to the top, and I've also found out their philosophy is actually quite close to mine. Some people have different philosophies to mine; but most don't.

Why do I mention I'm a teacher? Because I've guided many a person up a mountain - albeit a different mountain. And I feel I know a good path when I see one.

All in all I got what I set our for. And most of them have shared this information without telling me I'm full of sh't. Maybe you could learn some other things from the other posters as well.

magamo Wrote:If I remember correctly, the AJATT guy said 10,000 hours of listening is required to develop decent listening skills. I think he's underestimating the amount of time a learner needs or he's just trying not to intimidate readers.

If you are under the impression that 10,000 hours are the bare minimum for becoming fluent in a language, then yes - you are exactly the type of person who could have really used some professional assistance.

10,000 hours is a lot of time. I know people who have become surgeons in that amount of time. Michelangelo could have painted the Sistine Chapel several times over in that amount of time. If your method consists of: quitting work; dropping out of school; and sponging off your parents for 18 months while you engage on the most inefficient method of language learning I've ever come across, please never become a teacher.

BTW, you really don't understand sarcasm. Watch heaps and heaps of British TV and then tell my sarcasm sucks.

jajaaan Wrote:Anyone who takes any advice posted on an internet forum at face value is an idiot. The internet is full of idiots. OP is an idiot for not realizing this. .

Perhaps I thought some posters here are idiots, but after some - I'll be honest - very useful responses, I've been pleasantly reassured that many posters here are far from idiots. BTW, your response goes in the 'not so useful' box.

You are aware that you're implying that everyone who reads this post - not merely myself - is an idiot, aren't you?