I wonder if the OP was just trolling. If not I would be interested in hearing from them what they think is the best approach to language learning.

I think there is some good advice on this website, but there is some "group think" as well. Based on my research there is relatively little in the way of well thought out designed experiments that compare language learning approaches. So although there are lots of academics pontificating about language learning, they don't necessarily have the experiments to back up their theories.

I don't claim to be an expert on language learning and I have no doubt that a lot of my beliefs are wrong, as are the beliefs of academics and I suspect those of other people on this forum.

Since it is apparent that people often study foreign languages for years in colleges around the world and don't achieve fluency either, it seems that A) nobody really knows for sure the best approaches and B) learning a language takes a long time.

I basically agree with where the OP is coming from. Empirical studies have shown that many things shunned by AJATT people work very well, and AJATT is basically based on anecdotal evidence, which we all know is pretty useless. I'm not saying that AJATT doesn't work (and many things on this website has indeed helped me), but the things people shun here work well for a lot of people.

English teaching in Japan isn't so good, but I have quite a few students (high schoolers) whose English blows away my Japanese, and I'VE LIVED IN JAPAN FOR TWO YEARS (and studied it for three even before that).

activeaero Wrote:With all due respect I've found that dedicated self learners, in almost any field, are usually the most skilled individuals in that field. Whether it be languages, business, computer programming, etc.

True, I'm not trying to denigrate self-study, as god knows how many hours I've put into it myself.

But think about it: language is basically a means of communication. Self-study, by definition, is working alone. How insane is it to say 'I've mastered a form of communication by not communicating with anyone?'

When I teach, I hammer into all of my students the notion that they are responsible for their language learning - if they do no studying outside of class, they shouldn't really expect to learn anything. If that's not self study, then I don't know what is. So no, I believe self-study is absolutely essential to language learning.

But doing nothing but self-study is going to produce disappointing results when it comes to picking up a language, and I do believe there are people out there who haven't yet realized that. If I have to whip out my teaching credentials to get people to take my message seriously, so be it.

To answer nest0r's question, I have a Cambridge Certificate in English Language Teaching to Adults (CELTA), and although there's tremendous variation in how individual CELTA-qualified instructors teach, all teachers are trained to use the 'communicative method', something I'll explain more fully below.

Although I can't objectively rate myself as a teacher, I've had enough positive feedback from ex-students to convince me that I probably know what I'm doing.

Erubey Wrote:To be honest I don't hold the position of professional language teacher in high regards.

kazelee Wrote:Being a teacher for umpteen years doesn't mean you are a good one.

I think it is incredibly unfair to tar all language teachers with the same brush. Like many other posters here, I have had my share of bad language teachers; but to insist that all language teachers are incompetent - just because some are - is incredibly simplistic. You've discerned from one post that someone you've never met is a bad teacher? Well, then maybe I should summon some of my ex-students to prove otherwise.

Zarxrax Wrote:I took classes for many years. I experienced many different teachers and teaching styles. Most of them didn't get me very far.
Using the advice of people on this forum, I think I've gotten pretty far.

Again, I don't know who your teachers were, but I can reasonably sure they weren't using the 'communicative method,' as it hasn't really spread to the teaching of other languages (think about it - aside from the worth of speaking English in the present age, don't you think the reason English is spoken by as many people as it is today may have something to do with the methods that are being used to teach it?)

As I mentioned above, I was taught the most efficient way to learn any language was the 'communicative method' - ie, you learn by actively using a language.

Zarxrax Wrote:I think it's pretty easy to quantify how effective a certain study method is. You either know something or you don't. How many new items do you learn each day? This is what it all comes down to, isn't it?
I can definitely tell you that I learn more things each day now, than I ever did in a class.

Zarxrax, I would ask you, instead of quantifying what you've learned, how about 'qualifying' it? It's great that you've learned, let's say, 300 items last week with SRS; but I would then ask: how many of these items could you use spontaneously in a conversation/e-mail/SMS/etc...? A language is a means of communication, and what's the point of saying you have 'mastered' 300 items when you're unable to produce a single one them?

Zarxrax Wrote:Doing self study, I usually pick up about 10 new words a day, with context. With the help of my SRS, I also make sure that I don't forget them.
So for that case, for me, my self-study is the clear winner in terms of vocabulary acquisition.

Perhaps I dismissed you too early, Zarxrax, as you mentioned something I would advise everyone here to take to heart: CONTEXT. Never learn anything outside of context! In the past few weeks I've been downloading heaps of SRS materials, and most decks ended up in the Recycle Bin the second I opened them, as the vast majority were just simple J-E vocabulary decks. (Practically) worthless. If I could give one piece of advice to anyone who's about to create an SRS deck, I would say toss the simple J-E translations and start exercises that show vocabulary in context. If you haven't learned something in context, you're basically just translating everything in your head. And if you have to translate everything in your head, forget about becoming fluent anytime soon.

kazelee Wrote:The tried and true, endlessly credentialed approach is losing. I make the mark, but I don't really learn much.

You don't really learn much?! Thanks for being so frank. Then I definitely won't take any self-study tips from you in the future.

bodhisamaya Wrote:Meeting with a private bilingual tutor once a month one on one would be beneficial I think. Other than that, I can't believe people waste time and money trying to learn a language in a classroom environment.

Again, I think this is excellent advice that most people fail to heed. SPEAK! Production aids acquisition. Writing actually helps you develop as a reader. People who can speak language X generally have better listening skills than people who can't speak. SRS is a good tool (one that I do use everyday as well); but if you're never ultimately using the language - fuggedaboudit. You'll forget everything just as quickly as you acquired it.

If you have Skype, use it. There are heaps and heaps of Japanese people who are dying for the chance to practice English with someone. If you're not using it, you haven't mastered it and you won't be remembering it. Don't think you can become fluent in a language just because you've cut and paste a list of JLPT vocab from MLC into an Anki deck. If you're not actively using the language, you're just losing it.

magamo Wrote:How many students have you taught and how many of them reached fluency to the extent that they might pass for native speakers?

How many students? Probably over a thousand. But the vast majority were long-term students for an hour/week or intensive students who I taught for maybe a week or two. I don't think I've taught any one student for more than 100 hours, which is well below the threshold for native speaker fluency. And besides, once students have reached a certain level there's little need for a teacher, as English lessons are definitely not cheap and who needs a teacher when someone can get practice speaking with natives 24/7?

magamo Wrote:Is your native language Japanese?

Why? Is my English that bad?

I haven't been on this forum long, but I would be surprised if there were many native Japanese speakers here.

magamo Wrote:If not, could you translate what you have said into Japanese and answer my questions in Japanese?

I might be able to translate your questions and answer them - but not spontaneously. Like almost everyone here, I'm still learning Japanese and have a ways to go before I could say I've mastered the language. To do that I need more speaking practice.

magamo Wrote:Oh, and if you're just a troll, well, you did a good job. I fell for it.

Well, I don't have horns nor do I live under a bridge (makes it tough to find work); but I am also a language learner who is about to commit many, many hours to language study, as I'm trying to balance studying with the JLPT 1 with working full-time and raising a family (and I may throw some translation classes in as well). Before I make such a huge investment in study time (hey, I've got stuff I'd rather be doing as well), I want to make sure my investment in method X will pay dividends - ie, will the hours spent SRSing this set help me become more fluent?

At the very least, I wanted to raise awareness of this issue (looks like I raised some other things as well ). SRS is great, but using nothing but SRS is like building castles in the sand. From the brief time I've spent reading this forum, I've come to feel there are (a few) learners who are applying methods that work well for acquiring other forms of knowledge; but not so well for a living language.

I reckon there are people here who are on their third, fourth, or even fifth language. Those are not the people I'm trying to reach. I'm trying to get people who are working on learning their so-to-say 'first' second language to consider what they're doing before they commit so much time to rote memorization.

Actually, I think quite a lot of people recommends communication, pretty much everyone. A few posters go too far and claim output is the devil and we should never ever speak Japanese, but those are extreme exceptions. Personally I speak Japanese several times a month with natives and pretty much every day with my girlfriend and I would never have gotten this far without it, and I make sure to mention that when I advice people in how to learn the language.

Since you seem to place such an emphasis on the opinions of academics, you should read more of Stephen Krashen's work, as much of what he says forms the basis of study methods like AJATT.

As for the "communicative method", self-study doesn't mean not communicating with others, it means cutting out the teacher from the equation. Quite a few people here use lang8, Skype, chat to penpals, etc. Frankly, apart from a requisite number of contact hours with a native speaker, there is little need for a teacher when learning a language. And I say that as someone who has been teaching English for the last 6 years.

I think most people on this forum, while not yet at a high level, are speaking from their own personal experience self-studying Japanese. This isn't a forum aimed at helping people learn from teachers, or for helping teachers make lesson plans.

In other words, anyone on here with experience learning Japanese to an intermediate or higher level has more worthwhile advice to give than someone who is a teacher, regardless of how many years that person has taught. That goes double for someone who is not even teaching the same language. Also,a number of people on this forum do have high level Japanese (me, yudantaiteki, at least 3 natives).

Also, while I do believe a class taught by a good teacher is invaluable, the vast majority of language teachers are awful at what they do. Having a teaching certification means absolutely nothing. My ex-gf got an ESL cert. and she can't even give a self introduction in English.

That said, I don't pay much attention to the method posts (I have my own method), other than to stir up trouble related to AJATT. The method posts should be used for ideas, not to adopt stuff wholesale (that is one of my beefs with AJATT true-believers).

mc2mc Wrote:But think about it: language is basically a means of communication. Self-study, by definition, is working alone. How insane is it to say 'I've mastered a form of communication by not communicating with anyone?'

The "self-study" that people are referring to here is studying without formal classes or a teacher. Not sure why you assumed that equated to not practicing with humans at all.

Quote:Again, I don't know who your teachers were, but I can reasonably sure they weren't using the 'communicative method,' as it hasn't really spread to the teaching of other languages

Pretty sure my professor used the communicative method during my one year stint taking formal Japanese classes in college. There are surely worse teaching methods, but there are also great arguments against it, such as this:
http://www.lingua.org.uk/communicatcompet.html
Unless you and I are talking about two different "communicative methods."

Ironically, many people's opinion about the communicative method (including mine) is that it is a systematization of the blind leading the blind.

Quote:If I could give one piece of advice to anyone who's about to create an SRS deck, I would say toss the simple J-E translations and start exercises that show vocabulary in context. If you haven't learned something in context, you're basically just translating everything in your head. And if you have to translate everything in your head, forget about becoming fluent anytime soon.

Full agreement on this point. I wish more people here would realize this.

Quote:Again, I think this is excellent advice that most people fail to heed. SPEAK! Production aids acquisition. Writing actually helps you develop as a reader. People who can speak language X generally have better listening skills than people who can't speak.

Strongly agree on this point too, but again there are strong arguments against moving on to production too quickly. http://antimoon.com has several articles on this, I believe. I tend to agree with them.

Maybe it would help this discussion if you concisely stated the learning strategies that you've seen here and find so distasetful, using a short list of bullets, instead of a four page analysis?

resolve Wrote:Since you seem to place such an emphasis on the opinions of academics....

Where?

resolve Wrote:you should read more of Stephen Krashen's work, as much of what he says forms the basis of study methods like AJATT.

I haven't read any of Stephen Krashen's work, and until someone gives me a more convincing testimonial, I won't be either. From what I can tell on AJATT, Krashen advocates language learners remain silent until they've reached a certain comfort level in a language - and then they will just start magically outputting. (Hey, it worked for Einstein) I guess it's AJATT's ex post facto justification of his 'input only' method.

But I would retort with two points: 1) they have studied 'input only' with hearing children of deaf parents. Since hearing children can't pick up language from parents who can't speak, specialists advocated that the children be put in front of the TV, where it was assumed that children would pick up the language from input alone. Didn't work. The children didn't say a peep until they started kindergarten, where they could interact with other children and thus output. The study has been replicated in Holland, where educators wanted to teach German to Dutch children by making them watch German TV shows. Ditto. Both cases were highlighted in Steven Pinker's 'The Language Instinct'. Yes, Pinker is a Harvard professor, and therefore an academic, but his books are very accessible and he's been on 'The Colbert Report.' No more name dropping for me.

2) I can't entirely discern Krashen's method from his web page, but I think AJATT is misquoting him for his own purposes, for if Krashen is discouraging language learners from actively using L2, he would be part of a very tiny minority of linguists who do.

Jarvik7 Wrote:This isn't a forum aimed at helping people learn from teachers, or for helping teachers make lesson plans.

I've never claimed to be a Japanese teacher, nor am I one. I came across this site while looking for materials for self-study, as I'm too cheap too afford a good Japanese teacher. BTW, they do exist: it seems most people here have nothing but negative experiences with Japanese classrooms; but if you have a good teacher and if you're in a class where there are students who speak diverse native languages - ie, you have to speak Japanese to communicate with your classmates - you can really learn a lot.

Again, I don't want to clog this thread with replies from people who feel they have to defend their personal choice in study methods. If you're method works - Bob's your uncle; if it doesn't - no skin off of my back. Go ahead and waste your youth pursuing methods that don't work.

I started this thread for personal reasons - most of the shared resources I came across on the web were sh'te. Did I find them in this forum? No. So why am I harassing you fine netizens? I posted my OP here simply because this forum appears to be a popular one and I wanted to reach a lot of people quickly. Is all of the advice here bad? No - some is quite good. But then again, some is absolute gobsh'te, and instead of going around to each thread (many of them, alas, long dead) I decided to start a new one.

What am I saying? Well, I'm trying to find JLPT1 materials and I use a lot of websites featuring shared materials (Quizlet, Smart.fm, Flashcards DB...). Most of the materials are, how should we say... dreck? You want examples? OK. Go to smart.fm, look up JLPT1, and you find heaps of vocab flashcards that are basically simply J-E translations. Japanese on one side and the EDICT translation on the other. To make matters worse, all the sets are arranged alphabetically (eg., all the 'A' words are in one set) C'mon? This is how you learn vocabulary? I tell you there are better ways and you feel the need to get defensive?

What do I suggest? Learn words in context. Go to EDICT, grab a sample sentence (along with a translation, if necessary), and make a flashcard that uses your word in context. For example

[front] あいつは_____相手だ。 He is a tough customer to deal with.
[back] 手強い(てごわい）

Yes, it's not as quick as just cutting and pasting something, but you'll learn that much faster this way. Yes, EDICT is not perfect - but brushing up bad translations is just that much more practice for you.

I know I've just reinvented the wheel, as this is what a lot of people do already anyways. But in my experience of looking for materials, this type of card sets is the minority.

And this is just one way to improve the quality of cards - I would love to see exercises that group words by theme or function; an exercise that tests homophones in Japanese. As much as I would like to make them, I just don't have the skillz.

So instead of asking for help in constructing specific card sets, I'm asking everyone who makes materials to consider how people really learn languages. If nudging people to think more about linguistics in general helps to improve the quality of shared materials available on-line, then I'm all for it.

mc2mc Wrote:I haven't been on this forum long, but I would be surprised if there were many native Japanese speakers here.

In case you haven't realised, Magamo is a native Japanese who has successfully used the SRS/AJATT approach to learn English.

I guess this is why he's being slightly defensive; he's living proof the methodology works.

You need to expand your way of thinking about that a bit...

I don't preach my method on the forum much, but one thing I do encourage is not putting much time into making your study materials. In other words, quantity over quality. The crapiness of J-E edict flashcards is more than overcome by being able to do much more of them in the same amount of time and thus letting you get into reading native material faster. I leave context up to whenever I encounter it in real life. In any case, no matter how awesome your flashcards are, it's not going to help you output any faster. Good output comes with output practice.

This is not a predictive method like what some people have posted only to later recant, it has taken me well past JLPT1. Thanks to simple flashcards I can get through 600+ per day no problem and add 200+ new ones where many people only do ~10.

Also, if you'd lurked a bit more you'd know that I'm one of the most pro-academic linguistically minded people here. I agree with much of what you said but for different reasons.

@mc2mc

I think you might want to lurk a bit more before making a harsh comment. A lot of members of this forum are emphasizing the importance of context. I'm guessing many serious learners here would agree with a large part of your opinion about language learning. Not everyone would agree with you, and I don't agree with everything you said. But I don't think part of what you're saying isn't very different from what serious learners are saying here.

One thing I really don't like about your post is this:

mc2mc Wrote:

magamo Wrote:Is your native language Japanese?

Why? Is my English that bad?

I don't think a good English teacher should say this. I asked you that because I believe your fluency in English doesn't tell anything about your native language if you know very efficient learning techniques. Since I guessed you were a Japanese teacher from your comment and many Japanese teachers in English speaking countries are native Japanese speakers, I thought it was a legitimate question. I don't want to learn English from a person who replies to a "What's your mother tongue?" kind of question with such a line. It's an insult to non-native speakers who put a huge amount of effort.

I am a native Japanese speaker who learned English as an adult learner. May I ask why "being a native Japanese speaker" is associated with "bad English" in your mind? If you're the kind of English teacher who thinks Japanese people can't learn English, I hate you.

mc2mc Wrote:

magamo Wrote:How many students have you taught and how many of them reached fluency to the extent that they might pass for native speakers?

How many students? Probably over a thousand. But the vast majority were long-term students for an hour/week or intensive students who I taught for maybe a week or two. I don't think I've taught any one student for more than 100 hours, which is well below the threshold for native speaker fluency. And besides, once students have reached a certain level there's little need for a teacher, as English lessons are definitely not cheap and who needs a teacher when someone can get practice speaking with natives 24/7?

If you don't conduct a follow-up survey of your students' progress after they leave your class, what do you say you learned about language learning from your teaching experience? Since you sounded very confident and said you were basing your theory partly on what learned from your experience, I thought you have kept track to back it up.

What you can learn from a teacher is very little when compared with the huge amount of grammar/vocabulary/whatever you have to learn to be fluent in a foreign language. If what you learned from your teaching experience is only about what you can learn in 100 hours of formal study, I don't think it matters much. It's as unreliable as your average blog post. It's mere anecdotal evidence about insignificant part of language acquisition.

I couldn't care less about your anecdotal evidence if it's about only 100 hours of study.

mc2mc Wrote:I haven't been on this forum long, but I would be surprised if there were many native Japanese speakers here.

There are three native Japanese speakers including me.

mc2mc Wrote:

magamo Wrote:Oh, and if you're just a troll, well, you did a good job. I fell for it.

Well, I don't have horns nor do I live under a bridge (makes it tough to find work); but I am also a language learner who is about to commit many, many hours to language study, as I'm trying to balance studying with the JLPT 1 with working full-time and raising a family (and I may throw some translation classes in as well). Before I make such a huge investment in study time (hey, I've got stuff I'd rather be doing as well), I want to make sure my investment in method X will pay dividends - ie, will the hours spent SRSing this set help me become more fluent?

Different methods work for different people. Different strokes for different folks. To each his own. There is no such thing as THE method. No one knows what will work for you.

I recommend some things because they seem to be working well for me. At least I believe so. But I don't know if they would also work for your Japanese study.

Do you really think you can tell if a learning method works for you before you try it?

I'm sorry if I sounded rude to you in this post. But I'm offended by the reply to my question "Are you a native Japanese speaker?" What kind of English teacher would reply, "Why? Is my English that bad?" That sounded terribly rude to me.

Quote:If you haven't learned something in context, you're basically just translating everything in your head. And if you have to translate everything in your head, forget about becoming fluent anytime soon.

That's not how it works in the long run though. It's a myth that using English when learning words lead to a form of "translation-sickness", just look at all the people who used word lists to learn languages? For example, look at my English? We always learned new words by going between Swedish and English over and over, and I can assure you, I'm hardly translating in my head as I'm writing this. You only translate to learn the word and remember it, it doesn't stop you from picking up context as you're exposed to it, and it doesn't stop you from speaking fluently if you have had enough practice. Maybe the first time you use a word in a conversation there might be a slight translation step, but then it disappears and you start using that word fluidly.

Context is important, but there's no reason to disregard English because of fear or something which won't happen. English is a shortcut so you can get into exposure and real contexts instead of sitting with half-assed contexts in your SRS deck.

There's nothing that I hate more than the 'appeal to authority' argument. Just because people have been teaching something for years means nothing. Yes, their students eventually learn... But we can learn -anything- by brute force if need be. Just being successful at teaching doesn't mean you're efficiently teaching it, especially since the school's grading system gets in the way of learning. (You study to past tests, instead of studying to learn.)

Second, communication requires 2 sides, that's true... But what you've forgotten is that books and movies are communication. Learning from them is a perfectly valid way to learn a language.

And finally, most classes aren't any more 2-directional than studying word lists on your own. Some self study and a decent tutor are way better than most classes, and far cheaper and quicker.

[ファブリス]

kazelee Wrote:It is very possible to give a detailed explanation of ha vs ga, without reaching some arbitrary level of proficiency. What's important is giving accurate info.

What's more we often understand something better when trying to explain it, I think everybody has experienced those "ha!" moments before. So a forum primarily is not a teaching center, otherwise one would have to be recognised as a "teacher" (accreditations or not). Instead a forum is a place to exchange knowledge, encouragements, and simply discuss. And by doing so everybody can gain a little something.

mc2mc Wrote:Does anyone here actually know what they're doing?

I think the question arises from a lot of doubt, and possibly if you return it towards yourself maybe the issue isn't whether people know what they are doing but whether you want to trust your guts or try different things?

But my first reaction was surprise, because we know there are a few people here who clearly have a passion for language learning, and who have learned two, three or even more languages. They tend to not post a lot but they are here.

Indeed.

Word lists are my primary study resource and most of my flashcards are simple Japanese word to English word(s). Yet I never think in English when I speak Japanese and usually my thoughts are in Japanese even when I'm alone. I often have to think for awhile when trying to explain a Japanese word to someone in English or offer one of my students an English equivalent. I consider direct study like this to be support/prep for when you encounter the word/grammar in actual use. I don't see the point in merging this two pronged approach into one mediocre "context flashcard" system. It's not a replacement for actually putting the language into use, and it takes MUCH longer to prepare the material and to review it. I can generate 200 flashcards in the time it takes someone to make one "perfect" card with pictures and sounds and sentences and highlighting.

What you (@OP) are afraid of is a myth perpetuated by people who only have a passing interest in learning a language (the majority).

[ファブリス]

mc2mc Wrote:What do I suggest? Learn words in context. Go to EDICT, grab a sample sentence (along with a translation, if necessary), and make a flashcard that uses your word in context. For example

Yeah that's what a lot of people have been doing here. You haven't been around long enough to see some of the more interesting discussions. That's ok, and having doubts is normal too... stick around and browse the various sub forums, you're welcome to post specific questions in those threads (don't be afraid to "rescussitate" an old thread so long as the comment is on topic).

Otherwise you need to post something with a more precise subject as that one is too generic and a little offensive to actually produce useful answers. PPS: to be more precise, you also need to understand that internet discussions boards all have this characteristic: people from all age groups, backgrounds, and knowledge and education levels discuss together. That's why discussion boards are a bit challenging for everyone to learn to tolerate all sorts of opinions. There is "authority" on message boards, it comes out of recognition from peers, but on forums it doesn't come from credentials, it comes from the quality of involvement, participation or simply sociability.

I think unless you see a word in a proper context and not just in an example sentence, you have a better chance of understanding it. I don't learn vocab from lists, I read plenty every day and look up what I don't know and put those items into my SRS.

You've gotta remember that peoples circumstances also vary. I don't live in japan so conversation practice doesn't exactly abound. That doesn't mean there us none to be had, it just means that if I wanna practice my Japanese I can't just pop down to the conbini and have a little chat with the guy who works there. What I'm trying to say is I don't have an environment where I can make small talk and realistically someone who is just starting out can only manage small talk.

I understand enough Japanese now that when having a conversation and nit just making small talk, I can at least understand the reply and when corrections are given to me I usually nderstand those too. It's really conducive to me actually learning. I used to go to the regular conversation nights twice a month but since I now feel I've reached a real crossroads in my learning, I've made the leap into having conversations every single day.

Tbh one thing I think is really terrible and that's when newbs in a class talk to other newbs in a class and inadvertantly teach eachother an error filled version of the language. Actually to be fair I've noticed this among English learners with different mother tongues that live together and speak with eachother all the time. I've seen it cause some major linguistic damage at times. So it probably happens in classrooms of such a nature from time to time at least. Personally I prefer to practice only with natives.

mezbup Wrote:Tbh one thing I think is really terrible and that's when newbs in a class talk to other newbs in a class and inadvertantly teach eachother an error filled version of the language. Actually to be fair I've noticed this among English learners with different mother tongues that live together and speak with eachother all the time. I've seen it cause some major linguistic damage at times.

This is actually a really important point. The OP says that learning in a classroom is better as you get to use the language, but you only get to really use it with other language learners.

When I took Japanese classes, I always found it odd that pronunciation was never corrected by our teacher, despite some peoples making terrible mistakes constantly (AR-REEE-GART-TOE!"). Now I have a native Japanese friend who is also a private language teacher, and I realise why; she says at teaching college they were told not to correct students or single people out, as it makes them feel bad and will discourage them from coming back.

magamo Wrote:@mc2mc

I think you might want to lurk a bit more before making a harsh comment. A lot of members of this forum are emphasizing the importance of context. I'm guessing many serious learners here would agree with a large part of your opinion about language learning. Not everyone would agree with you, and I don't agree with everything you said. But I don't think part of what you're saying isn't very different from what serious learners are saying here.

One thing I really don't like about your post is this:

mc2mc Wrote:

magamo Wrote:Is your native language Japanese?

Why? Is my English that bad?

I don't think a good English teacher should say this. I asked you that because I believe your fluency in English doesn't tell anything about your native language if you know very efficient learning techniques.

Magamo, I have no intentions of flaming people or offernding anyone. If you speak anything like you write, then your English is very good (albeit a bit wooden), and you understand English better than 99.99% of the Japanese I've met. Chapeau.

However, your comprehension of English sarcasm stinks. I do like SRS when it's used appropriately, but I'm afraid it won't help you appreciate English humor. If you don't like my reply, then let me warn you against going into forums with less sympathetic English speakers, as if you think I'm too cynical...

magamo Wrote:May I ask why "being a native Japanese speaker" is associated with "bad English" in your mind? If you're the kind of English teacher who thinks Japanese people can't learn English, I hate you.

'I hate you?' Most inappropriate. Yes, I'm the type of teacher who has come to teach in Japan - not for the culture, the history, the landscape - but to reinforce a belief that Japanese people are incapable of learning my tongue, especially when I happen to be teaching it. Explain to me the logic in that. Or better yet, don't. There's enough hate in the world, and I can do without yours. I will commend you for your command of English. However, even a qualified 'I hate you' is very uncalled for. Do me a favor and stop reading this thread.

Tobberoth Wrote:We always learned new words by going between Swedish and English over and over, and I can assure you, I'm hardly translating in my head as I'm writing this.

Yes, you translated in the beginning; but correct me if I'm wrong, as I've never been to Sweden, - I'm under the impression that Swedes are exposed to lots of authentic English since there's a lot of 'undubbed' (ie, only subtitled) TV from the US and UK, and I'd imagine that an English learner in Sweden would have no shortage of English in context. Plus, Swedish is a Germanic language, and it's no secret that learning a language from the same family as yours is much easier than learning a language isolate like Japanese. I would ask if you would recommend a learner of Japanese who has little access to authentic context to do nothing but remember list upon list of translations.

Jarvik7 Wrote:The crapiness of J-E edict flashcards is more than overcome by being able to do much more of them in the same amount of time and thus letting you get into reading native material faster.

Let's agree to disagree. I would posit that the extra time I take to do something (ie., looking up suitable sentences to exemplify word X) actually helps me in the long run, as that extra work helps me retain the word. And I want to make sure I understand something - when you learn words, are you just going through a list of unrelated words; or are you using words you've culled from an authentic text? Because words from a text would most definitely qualify as context.

Jarvik7 Wrote:What you (@OP) are afraid of is a myth perpetuated by people who only have a passing interest in learning a language (the majority).

Yes, SRS keeps me up at night.

How many times do I have to tell you I'm also an avid SRS learner? I use it now to supplement my studies, as I have used it in the past with other languages. However the languages where I used nothing but L1-L2 flashcards happen to be the languages that I forgot the fastest. So, if you'd like some testimony from someone's who forgotten a language, there you are.

BTW, my passing interest in what's probably my third language has lasted several years. I really don't like p'ssing contests. If you want to claim you're more interested in learning Japanese than me, the crown is yours for the taking.

ファブリス Wrote:[Yeah that's what a lot of people have been doing here. You haven't been around long enough to see some of the more interesting discussions. That's ok, and having doubts is normal too... stick around and browse the various sub forums, you're welcome to post specific questions in those threads (don't be afraid to "rescussitate" an old thread so long as the comment is on topic).

Thank you. If you could help direct me in the right direction, I would be much obliged, as it was the reason I posted the OP in the first place.

As some other posters have remarked, I need to work on my lurking skills. I've just waded through too many irrelevant threads in the last few weeks, so I've sort of given up on my goal of finding decent shared JLPT1 materials.

Again, I'm not a regular poster here, so sorry if I've upset the table. Although I'm no fan of Heisig (gasp!), I like this forum as it's very popular and I felt it was a good medium to get in touch with a lot of people quickly.

To all the stepped on toes out there - apologies. I didn't mean to question anyone's qualifications in particular; but I had read enough of this forum's threads from people who were aspiring to sit the 一級 after just nine months of study to wonder if there really were people here who, well, weren't insane. It appears there are, so thank you for your replies. If I used vinegar instead of honey to attract flies, apologies again.

I've read two or three of Stephen Krashen's books, and I think it's fair to say that he is totally in favor of classroom instruction and probably wouldn't endorse something like AJATT -- at least not until you'd had two or three years of classroom instruction.

He does advocate input above all else. But he advocates COMPREHENSIBLE input above all else, and when you're just beginning to learn Japanese, not much input is comprehensible!

For beginning students, what he primarily advocates is a method called Total Physical Response, where students start off being shown how to respond to commands: "Stand up," "Sit down," "Give me the cup," "Give Alex the cup," "Take three green candies out of the cup." That is, it's very limited input, and you show your understanding -- you internalize your understanding -- by actually doing what you hear.

I'm a big fan of TPR. You can actually do a surprising amount of grammar that way, and it takes off the pressure to speak until you're somewhat comfortable with the language, and I'm inclined to think that it's listening more than speaking that helps you develop a better accent.

Input is great but you can't just turn on the TV and expect to learn by immersion.

@mc2mc: perhaps your English IS that bad. At no point did I refer to you as someone with a passing interest in learning a language nor did I attempt a pissing contest with you (I'm at 5 languages if it matters though).

"What you're afraid of" has meanings other than "trembling with fear", such as "worrying about something" or "expecting a negative outcome".

Also, I never talked about SRS vs no SRS. I talked about SRS with extremely detailed cards vs SRS with basic cards. You were replying to me with that right?

As for the sentence cards, yes let's agree to disagree. I find actually using the language to be more useful than digging through highly suspect sentence collections or wooden dictionary examples. Quantity over quality gives one more time to do the former. SRS should be primarily for retention, not acquisition. Using a word list is, like I said, prep for the acquisition that truly occurs when a word encountered in real life. It's a dirty hack and adds a step, but is really increases acquisition speed when you've been primed.

I can see the benefit of sentence method at lower levels where consuming native media (non-laboriously) is still a distant hope, but if you are studying for JLPT1 like you said I think it's not required anymore.

mc2mc Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:We always learned new words by going between Swedish and English over and over, and I can assure you, I'm hardly translating in my head as I'm writing this.

Yes, you translated in the beginning; but correct me if I'm wrong, as I've never been to Sweden, - I'm under the impression that Swedes are exposed to lots of authentic English since there's a lot of 'undubbed' (ie, only subtitled) TV from the US and UK, and I'd imagine that an English learner in Sweden would have no shortage of English in context. Plus, Swedish is a Germanic language, and it's no secret that learning a language from the same family as yours is much easier than learning a language isolate like Japanese. I would ask if you would recommend a learner of Japanese who has little access to authentic context to do nothing but remember list upon list of translations.

The whole point of how we self-study here, the advice we give and AJATT as well, is that exposure to authentic Japanese is key. Fact is, this is key no matter what, regardless of how you learn. Learn your way or using English, if there's no authentic exposure, you're screwed. Therefore, such an argument doesn't have any impact on the discussion whether or not English should be used on cards.

I can promise you that the authentic English I was exposed to is nothing compared to what the serious learners here expose themselves to in Japanese. News, websites, drama, anime, movies, books, manga, academic papers, you name it. There is no person who has little access to authentic context when it comes to Japanese, unless said person lacks a computer and internet.

@OP: is the jlpt such a big deal? Passing a test does not indicate language ability. Granted, knowledge of the language is required to pass a test but it by no means indicates fluency or even conversational skills In the case of JLPT. I'd say if you don't actually need the JLPT invest more study time in actually learning the language and not just in order to pass the test.

mc2mc Wrote:I didn't mean to question anyone's qualifications in particular; but I had read enough of this forum's threads from people who were aspiring to sit the 一級 after just nine months of study to wonder if there really were people here who, well, weren't insane.

A shame you didn't sift around a bit more. You would have found that the "一級 in nine months" people are the target of much ridicule around here.

[OFF TOPIC ALERT]

If you're looking for good JLPT 1 materials, here are some good JLPT 1 resources:

ねじまき鳥クロニクル - 村上春樹
博士の愛した数式 - 小川洋子
世界の中心で、愛をさけぶ - 片山恭一
リング - 鈴木光司

All you need to do to prepare for most of the JLPT is read, read, and read some more. Then if you're not living in Japan, get some audio input, for which I'd suggest finding some TV shows/movies/cartoons that strike your fancy.

The only part of the JLPT that's artificial enough to merit studying in its own merit is the grammar section, for which I would suggest the following book:

日本語能力試験に出る文法１級 - 松岡龍美・辻　信代

JimmySeal Wrote:A shame you didn't sift around a bit more. You would have found that the "一級 in nine months people" are the target of much ridicule around here.

Ridiculed for being so slow! It only takes 3 months!

har har

(I have a feeling mc2mc is going to take that seriously. Lurk more before criticizing. This forum is not a monoculture.)