IceCream Wrote:shirokuro: please don't hate me, you know i like you and respect you, right? Seriously!!

but: nobody is making you feel like shit. If you associate the word as its used in a totally different context with yourself, you should definately stop doing that!!! There is absolutely nothing wrong with whoever you are, and nobody using a word, especially one in a context totally removed from gay hate, should be able to make you feel bad.

Even if they were using it homophobically, you still should not feel like shit. You should just know at that point that they're an idiot.

Of course I don't hate you.

Still, I am really hurt when I see "gay" being used in this way. I feel like my dignity as a person is being attacked, and for that reason, I consider this usage to be hate language. The meanings of "homosexual" and "bad," "stupid," "annoying," and so on are not divorced in my mind; what you are telling me is that something that one calls "gay" as in "bad" is bad precisely because it is homosexual.

I don't know everyone's views and backgrounds on here. How am I supposed to know that someone who uses "gay" the way mezbup did isn't a homophobe? I can't unless they've said so themselves. And even if they have, if they say something like they "don't give a shit" after being criticized for their choice of words and hearing that people do take offense, I think that's being extremely callous.

I don't view the use of "gay" to mean "bad" to be particularly offensive or meanspirited, but rather incredibly juvenile, like entering 7734 into a calculator. I honestly didn't think people older than about 13 still use it that way, and maybe that's why I don't take too much offense (they're just kids, right). But it was definitely commonly used when I was in middle school, always as an insult against someone and always meant to mean "homosexual and therefore bad" (it was usually accompanied with specific descriptions of how the target was attracted to other males). Maybe you guys went to more civilized schools, but in my experience "gay" used to mean "bad" always implicitly got to that definition by meaning "homosexual", and that's why it can be offensive. This other use, where it apparently has no connection to that meaning, is foreign to me. What a coincidence! Two words that are spelled the same, pronounced the same, and mean the same thing, but only one has roots in homophobia. I hope people are careful to use the right one.

So to sum up, it seems there are 4 uses of the word.

1. "Gay" meaning "happy" - nobody uses this.
2. "Gay" meaning "homosexual" - common use.
3. "Gay" meaning "homosexual and therefore bad" - used by middle schoolers and the bassist from the Black Lips.
4. "Gay" meaning just plain "bad" - used by fine upstanding citizens, gay people themselves (definition 2), and Canadians.

IceCream Wrote:if people are seriously offended by the term "gay", then don't use it to refer to themselves.

I shouldn't have to stop being able to use "gay" as a neutral adjective to mean "homosexual" because I take issue with it being used as a generically negative modifier. I'd like to see the latter fall out of use, but am fine with the former. I'm not implying contempt for myself when I refer to myself as "gay."

Language is a contentious issue in the queer community. It's hard to make everyone happy. For example, some people find the word "homosexual" to be too clinical. Others dislike that "queer" is used to refer to people who fall outside of the sexual mainstream through assocation with being "weird" or "atypical." Personally, I'm fine with all of these words when they are being used as adjectives to simply mean "homosexual." What I take issue with is when "gay" is being used in an insulting or negative way. I view it as a homophobic practice, and that tolerance of such language is tolerance of prejudice and homophobia.

mirina Wrote:I am sorry that you must feel this way, and I am sorry that there are people in this world who are so bothered and intimidated by another person's sexuality that they feel to the need to oppress that person. But I also hope that you can understand that the vast majority of people who use the word "gay" to refer to something bad in no way are simultaneously thinking of that particular object or situation as similar to homosexuality.

If you oppose homophobia and prejudice based on sexual orientation, then why would you excuse and defend language that condones and encourages it? You can't know most of the time what is going on in other people's minds when they use words like "gay" this way, so you shouldn't be making claims that this use of the adjective "gay" as a negative modifier is divorced from its use to mean "homosexual" for the "vast majority of people."

Quote:[...] So, my use of the word "gimp" does not mean that I have anything against people who limp or have a lame leg; it's just a way of expressing myself in a way that I feel, at the time, is the most effective.

"Effectiveness" is not a justification. You are also effectively offending me and others.

Jesus, I go to sleep and wake up and there's 3 pages of pure 火炎. Which is exactly the reason for a very callous reaction of "I don't give a shit" because I simply can't be bothered arguing for 3 pages on my word choice that I used completely unconsciously without thinking. In the same way I used "Jesus" as an interjection, In a casual setting I speak in a very slangy manner (just the way I was linguistically raised) and because it's just a wall of text I see it in a casual manner.

@shirokuro: I'm sorry. Now it's been brought to my attention that there is someone gay who does take offense to the usage among our readership I'll refrain from its use just like I would in a physical conversation. Far be it from me to know someone is gay before I use the word. "I don't give a shit" refers not to your feelings but to everyone else's who isn't gay (they can't take offense to it the way you can so why do they feel a need to flame??).

@mezbup

Hey, now. There's some valid information mixed in with that flame.

mezbup Wrote:@shirokuro: I'm sorry. Now it's been brought to my attention that there is someone gay who does take offense to the usage among our readership I'll refrain from its use just like I would in a physical conversation. Far be it from me to know someone is gay before I use the word. "I don't give a shit" refers not to your feelings but to everyone else's who isn't gay (they can't take offense to it the way you can so why do they feel a need to flame??).

Thanks. Apology accepted. And I appreciate that you won't write it anymore.

The thing is, though, mezbup, that it shouldn't matter that I'm gay. You still shouldn't be writing this way on the forum. It can bother or offend people who don't belong to the queer community, too; nest0r/ruiner, aphasiac, Aijin, iAurora, and others all voiced that they have problems with this usage, too. I think it can upset them just as much. I'm not developmentally-disabled, but I'm really annoyed and offended by the use of the word "retarded" in a similar way, like I said in a different thread.

I'm saddened to see people who say things like, "Oh well, now that I know you're gay, I won't say things like that." It doesn't make an apology sound very sincere to me. Even if there weren't any queer people on here, I still don't think it would be OK to write. Just like I don't think it's OK to be writing "retarded" on here, whether there are developmentally-disabled members on here or not. I think that using "gay" to mean something like "bad" or "annoying" is always unacceptable, whether it's said or written with an audience that includes queer people or not.

@various people in this thread

If you claim that words are just words, and that the fault for any offense from them lies with the person taking offense, then you are a douchebag.

Now by definition, nobody targeted by that statement should have any problem with it, right? After all, if it offends you, then it's your fault for taking the word for a useful device and attaching a negative connotation to it.

Ah ha, just noticed Jarvik mentioned South Park. I already linked to a discussion of that in the first page of this thread, but it is interesting once you introduce 'fag' to the topic, where 'no no, fag just means you know, a jerk or something, nothing to do with gay--i mean the other gay, not the one that means bad and has nothing to do with homosexuality and exists in a totally different mental space for everyone but middle schoolers and oversensitive PC types, as research I did via spinning someone's forum comment shows.'

IceCream

You do realize that the usage of the word 'gay' in negative meaning was started by aggressively homophobic people, don't you? It's obvious. You also probably see that it's not just one over-sensitive person that takes the offense of this usage, it's half of the posters in this thread, meaning the offensive side of it is far from non-existent or forgotten as you claim it to be.

So what you are basically defending here is your right to continue homophobic tradition. And you use ignorance as a good enough excuse for that, like the fact that some people don't think much about the words they use and the effect they can have on other people's feelings, somehow makes it ok for them to use insulting terms because they don't really mean it. Because this is how the word lost its connection with homosexuality for some people - they just kept repeating cool trendy words after others without thinking much about it. It doesn't really change original insult being present in this usage. It's obviously still there, hurting people, including ones you claim to have sympathy and respect for.

The question is.. is what you are trying to protect here really worth it?

I'm not writing this as any kind of insult to you, I just genuinely feel it's a pity that a young and an obviously bright girl like you thinks and says some of the things you wrote here. I believe there are better things to feel protective about.

Jarvik7 Wrote:If someone isn't using it with the intent to offend homosexuals, then just calm down already. Just because one person posted on the board saying that they were offended means nothing, since offence wasn't the intention.

As kazelee said, it was more than just "one person." It wasn't just me. Even if it was, though, it shouldn't be dismissed and said to "mean nothing," no matter the intention. If you know that something that you wrote offended other people and could easily have been avoided, it shouldn't matter how few or how many people were offended. You know that you are needlessly offending at least one person, so I think that, out of consideration, you should stop writing in that way. This is not a question of "being PC"; this is about being considerate.

Also, I'm debating this civilly, so I shouldn't be told to "calm down." Neither should anyone else who criticizes people for using this kind of language on here. Furthermore, I think that this use of "gay" is unacceptable whether offense is intended or not.

Quote:Except that being offended by people using perfectly acceptable words is your own problem, and is in no way similar to having your foot stepped on. It's more like I'm standing next to you and you are insisting that I stepped on your foot, even though I haven't. Your foot may hurt, but the pain wasn't caused by me.

It's not just "your own problem"; it's actually much more problematic than that. For example, it can reflect a problem with a society or culture as a whole. Saying that it's fine to use "gay" in this way can mean to some people that prejudice against queer people is also fine. I think that this usage does contribute to prejudice against and general intolerance of the queer community, whether that is the intention or not.

Quote:The euphemism treadmill is caused by people with inferiority complexes. Janitors may not be proud that their job involves cleaning toilets, so we have gone through a number of different PC terms for the occupation. Some people will look down on janitors no matter what their job title is, most people don't really have any thoughts about janitors.

If, for example, I referred to a black person as black and they got angry at me, I'd tell them to grow up, not apologize.

This isn't about euphemisms. The usage that is being discussed here isn't euphemistic. I also don't have an inferiority complex because of my sexual orientation, and I'm not asking anyone here to write only in completely PC language. I'm asking people to be considerate. The argument here is against the use of the word "gay" in a way which I and others perceive as contributing to a homophobic atmosphere, and which needlessly offends many people.

Quote:Like it or not, gay is a perfectly acceptable adjective, unrelated to people, in modern English.

No, it is not perfectly acceptable in modern English in the way that it was used. I, like many other people, consider it totally unacceptable. What it really is is hate speech, and that should never be seen as acceptable.

As nest0r said, using the word "gay" in this way is insidious. It really does do a lot of damage, regardless of whether that was the intention or not. It is needlessly offensive. It reinforces homophobia. It reinforces negative views of homosexuality and homosexual people. It makes it harder for people to "come out." It's demoralizing. It promotes an "us vs. them" mentality. The list goes on. I really don't see how you can view its use as defensible or "acceptable."

Quote:Even if the usages had some connection before, it is gone now.

No, the connection is still very present for many people. It certainly is for me. I've heard "gay" used this way by many homophobic people. The association is still very much there in modern English, and to argue that it isn't is to be willfully ignorant. Even if it's not there for you, doesn't mean it's not for many other people.

JimmySeal Wrote:@various people in this thread

If you claim that words are just words, and that the fault for any offense from them lies with the person taking offense, then you are a douchebag.

Now by definition, nobody targeted by that statement should have any problem with it, right? After all, if it offends you, then it's your fault for taking the word for a useful device and attaching a negative connotation to it.

While I understand the point you are trying to make I must ask that you refrain from using such insults. This is directed at Nest0r and IceCream as well.

kazelee Wrote:

JimmySeal Wrote:@various people in this thread

If you claim that words are just words, and that the fault for any offense from them lies with the person taking offense, then you are a douchebag.

Now by definition, nobody targeted by that statement should have any problem with it, right? After all, if it offends you, then it's your fault for taking the word for a useful device and attaching a negative connotation to it.

While I understand the point you are trying to make I must ask that you refrain from using such insults. This is directed at Nest0r and IceCream as well.

That's so straight, dude.

nest0r Wrote:That's so straight, dude.

So's your mom.

IceCream Wrote:

shirokuro Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:if people are seriously offended by the term "gay", then don't use it to refer to themselves.

I shouldn't have to stop being able to use "gay" as a neutral adjective to mean "homosexual" because I take issue with it being used a generically negative modifier. I'd like to see the latter fall out of use, but am fine with the former. I'm not implying contempt for myself when I refer to myself as "gay."

and yet, you beleive people are implying contempt for you, as a homosexual person, when they use the word "gay" to refer to something totally other than homosexuality?

There's something in that equation that doesn't add up. Either the connotations are connected, or they aren't.

To me, this use of "gay" is personification/anthropomorphism. If you describe a situation as being "gay," it sounds to me like you are transforming it into a homosexual person, and that that is why you find something negative about it. The connotations are there to me, and I'm pretty certain they are there for the many homophobic people who I've heard use the word in this way.

Quote:

shirokuro Wrote:Language is a contentious issue in the queer community. It's hard to make everyone happy. For example, some people find the word "homosexual" to be too clinical. Others dislike that "queer" is used to refer to people who fall outside of the sexual mainstream through assocation with being "weird" or "atypical." Personally, I'm fine with all of these words when they are being used as adjectives to simply mean "homosexual."

you're perfectly right. Its contentious everywhere. For instance, i have have a stronger reaction to the use of the word "queer" than i do to someone referring to some random situation or object being "gay". But im not gonna ask you to stop using the term, or tell you that you are increasing prejudice towards gay people by using "queer".

I draw a distinction between "gay" and "queer." My use of "queer" is actually informed by the language that I see being used in gender studies literature. I only started using it, actually, after reading Douglas Janoff's Pink Blood: Homophobic Violence in Canada, in which he explains that he uses "queer" instead of abbreviations like "GLBTTQQ," which he finds cumbersome. I have to agree, and I always use it in this sense, never as a word that is only synonymous with "gay" or "homosexual." I identify as both gay and queer, though, and sometimes people are OK with a word being used if it's being used by a member of the in-group, while its use by "outsiders" is not seen as acceptable. Personally, I'm fine with anyone using it as an adjective as long as it is not being applied in a homophobic, insulting, or negative way.

Quote:

shirokuro Wrote:What I take issue with is when "gay" is being used in an insulting or negative way. I view it as a homophobic practice, and that tolerance of such language is tolerance of prejudice and homophobia.

and yet, nobody, No-one at all on this forum, has actually come forward and expressed any kind of homophobic views in the slightest. In fact, even the people who have expressesed that they have a different opinion on how it's ok to use the word "gay" have openly stated their absolute distaste and disgust at homophobia.

As I have said before, I take issue with this use of "gay" largely because I see it as contributing to and perpetuating prejudice against the queer community. This can even be done unintentionally or unwittingly by people who have nothing against queer people and who might even oppose such prejudice.

I do not believe that one's intentions always justify one's actions. No harm intended doesn't mean no harm is being done. I've already said that this usage hurts me personally, whether that was the intention or not.

Quote:

mirina Wrote:If you oppose homophobia and prejudice based on sexual orientation, then why would you excuse and defend language that condones and encourages it? You can't know most of the time what is going on in other people's minds when they use words like "gay" this way

this wasn't directed at me, but... because 1.) we simply do not see that the use of the term gay, meaning bad, joyous, or whatever other meaning it has apart from homosexual, has any effect on peoples actual views about homosexuals, or bears any relation to their opinions about it.

It actually does have exactly these kinds of really serious effects, though. What I think you're really doing here and arguing for is turning a blind eye to homophobia.

Quote:and because 2.) the meaning related to homosexuality is used in a very particular type of way, by middle schoolers, when they mean gay-and-therefore-bad. Its not really used about situations or objects, but to put down men who aren't really tough, and things like that. When a word is used in such a different context that it bears little, or in most cases, any literal relation to something that could actually be homosexual, i'd guess its fair to say that the connotation is not felt often, by most people.

I don't draw the same distinctions here that you do. It's all one and the same to me. Someone or something is "gay" as in "homosexual," and therefore, by extension, whatever negative quality is being implied. This use is used by a lot more than students in middle school.

You don't know what most people feel or think about when they hear "gay" being used this way. There are definitely a lot more people than just me who have serious problems with it and who believe it's really injurious, or you wouldn't have campaigns like Think Before You Speak.

Quote:

Quote:You are also effectively offending me and others.

I honestly do hope that nothing that has been said in this discussion has actually offended you or hurt you in any way. But, i also beleive you have absolutely no reason to be offended too!!

You have no right to tell me what I should or shouldn't get offended by, or to say that my offense was groundless. This does offend me.

I like turtles

nest0r Wrote:I like turtles

Damn. Making it your own and thus taking away my power. Blast you!

*notices shrunken page count*

IceCream... I think you should have a warm glass of milk and cookies.

Edit: A cigarette works too.

Can't believe this debate is up to 4 pages...

I'm only gonna say one thing and I'm not posting in here again but honestly, nowadays, there's alot of offensive stuff out there in terms of words. I get made fun of in similar ways on a daily basis for another issue which I do not wish to disclose on a public forum.

As others have said, words have different uses in English. I hope anyone who is offended by the word "gay" meaning something negative or dumb, never uses words like moron, idiot, etc as others have brought up. I know that homosexuals have alot of bad history in terms of killings, beatings and such, but ya know I see news stories in my local area (county, state-wise) of people being beaten and killed, etc. for being mentally/physically disabled. Sure, it may not be as widespread as the homosexual issue but that doesn't mean using those words is any more acceptable than using gay is.

I can't stand seeing words like nigger and other racial terms being compared to using gay and idiotic, etc. I'm sorry to say, but racial slurs are far above pretty much anything else and have far more negative connotations to them. While I agree that the word gay can be offensive to many homosexuals, I think there are just as many who honestly don't care (I personally know a few). But if you were to walk up to a black person and ask them what that nigger across the street is doing, I don't think ANY black person is gonna be ok with that. Or walking up to a Jewish person and telling them that "wow Hitler really did a number on those Jews didn't he?" I'm sorry but those scenarios (as vulgar as they are, I apologize) can not be compared to "oh yeah, I agree, that class was so gay"

Ultimately, I'm not trying to offend anyone, I'm sorry if I did. I'm just stating my point-of-view, as everyone on this thread has the right to do. This a is a debate and I'm sure those who are for using "gay" as a word are not gonna change anyone's opinions, and vice versa. My final word: If people using the word bothers you so much, learn to just take it and move on, and don't associate with said people.

This is even easier on the internet... I don't know anyone, and nobody knows me. If you don't like what I say, then either ignore my posts or go to a different forum? I guess the mod has the right to stop the usage of "offensive" speech but not every mod on the web is gonna do so. This is the Internet people, learn to either suck it up and move on, like most people do, or cry about it and make yourself feel worse. You more than likely aren't gonna change anyone's opinions or ways of speaking, and we aren't going to change yours. So just leave it and move on.

Anyways, I'm done with this thread. さよなら and flame away folks!

Ah, the Gay 90's! It was a period in American history when New Englanders began exploiting the resources of South America to build the US into an economic super power and the expansionism spirit led to the annexations of Hawaii and the Philippines.

To change a bit from where this thread has been going...

I'm pretty offended that the word ***** (the f word, since it'll get censored) gets censored on this website, to be completely honest. The f word is a word that people over the age of 14 use when they're angry or want to talk in a rough manner. Nothing is offensive about it whatsoever.

People need to get their priorities straight. It reminds me of something I read recently. Just a little before he died, Bill Hicks did a performance on Letterman that was cut completely. What he said was deemed to be too offensive by the producers of the show, so it was removed in full. Hicks later wrote a very long letter to John Lahr where he talks about how offended and hurt he was by what happened.

I can't get to the letter right now to quote it exactly, since the website it's on seems to be down. But at one point he talks about how everyone in America talks about whether or not theere is too much violence on TV, or too much sex, or too much dirty language. But, as he says, the problem with TV is that it's too STUPID.

Violence, sex, and bad language on TV are much much much less dangerous than the assumption that the viewers should be treated like morons. Things that are said on TV by people like Pat Robertson or Sean Hannity do far more damage to the country and the people of the world than violence and sex depictions on TV. Yet violence gets edited out, and boobs get covered up. Somehow free speech applies to Pat Robertson, History Channel programs that treat Nostradamus seriously, and news programs that cover science advances which assume the audience doesn't know what an elementary particle is--but it doesn't apply to boobs and saying '*****.'

I could talk shit and say racist things about Chinese people on this forum, and if I phrased it right the worst I would get is a reply post disagreeing with me, but if I say ***** it needs to be edited out. ***** that.

IceCream Wrote:well, i had 2. guess id better finish the pack now, eh...

argghhh 1 month of being a 非喫煙者　T_T

I have images of an ice cream cone puffing on a cancer stick now :O

Err......I mean a Lactose American suffering from a nicotine addiction >_<

IceCream Wrote:wtf is a lactose american?!?

What do you cream colored people of Lactose descent prefer to be called?

A bloody Britt???

This topic of political correctness came up because someone claimed Youtube was gay, I think. What would be the PC way of insulting Youtube?

For some IceCream reason YouTube is NOT working right for me. Bunch of Mirinas running the joint I guess. ;p

(Disclaimer: To me, IceCream and Mirina just means 'bad' or 'bad person', in no way do I think of IceCream or Mirina when I use these words.)

IceCream Wrote:lololol
actually, my nickname comes from an insult.

anyway, i think you should report youtube for nest0rphobia, because it's working for me...

No! Phobia would mean they're afraid of me. You clearly mean that they're anti-nest0r or nest0rnegative. Please don't tarnish the good name of folks who are merely fearful of nest0r.

IceCream Wrote:goddamn youtube

If God existed, She would be really offended right now!