Even though I experienced different spiritual practices, I really enjoyed reading Fabrice's post on his Vipassana retreat, and am happy to read about possible venues in Japan.

Thanks for the heads up, I hadn't noticed his post until I came across this thread.

To be honest, the more I read about Vipassana courses, the more seriously I consider taking one. Looks like there's a center relatively close to my location, even! I really appreciate the information and reflection, Fabrice.

I suggest looking into philosophy if you're into this kind of stuff. Be warned, most philosophy appeals to mere intellectual curiosity and has nothing to do with personal transformation, but there is definitely philosophy out there that has everything to do with personal transformation. Philosophizing changes how we experience the world as well as how the world experiences us. Note the subtle difference between philosophizing and studying philosophy, which are very much unlike each other. One is a way of life, the other is simply academics. Plato's early dialogues are an excellent starting point.

I've also done three 10 day retreats in the Goekna/Sayagyi U Ba Khin tradition and I found the third one to be the most "productive" and the one in which I was able to go most fully into the technique as it is taught. However, the most recent retreat was several years ago and I haven't maintained a daily practice as is suggested (in fact stated as necessary if you want to really continue developing). There's always a dozen excuses why not but taking 2 hr. a day just seems impossible to me given my work schedule and commitments (and, of course, my own desired free time pursuits). I typically start out with good intentions but after a couple of weeks have dwindled into an hour here and an hour there and eventually nothing. That's why I'm still so unenlightened ;-)

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@vileru: If you can practice philosophy, take it into your daily life.. then you may experience changes from that. Practice is the key.

The intellect can be both a very useful tool in meditation and a great barrier. You will experience both at a Vipassana course.

* As a barrier: intellect creates doubt. You start doubting the technique, the teachers (assistant teachers actually, which creates more confusion). You may get stuck in endless debates about the use of some non english words and their significance. You may question a lot of things, all the time the mind is restless and you're sitting on a cushion and no work is done. Eventually this calms down. The trick here is to learn to trust, and to tell yourself that you're doing this for 10 days. You're smart enough to know if someone tries to "convert" you to something right? This brings to the next point:

* As a formidable tool: intellect helps you repeat the instructions while you meditate, when your mind wanders, you can "hear" in your mind again the instructions. Or, you can foster motivation and intention through self dialogue. "I am here for 10 days, I don't want to waste my time or that of the teachers/servers. I am here to learn something, if after 10 days I find it didn't do anything for me thant that's it I will never come back, but for these 10 days I will give it all I've got, otherwise how can I judge whether it works or not?" And so on... Intellect also helps to understand the technique, which is key. No valuable work will be done if one just mechanically repeats the same steps without understanding what one is doing. And the intellect again picks up on the information from the evening discourses and makes connection to the personal experience from the day, and like this from day to day the practice becomes more meaningful and gives better results.

So yeah, the intellect is a wonderful thing. But perhaps one of the best things you can take out of such a course is to recognise every tool for what it's worth, what is its function, when is it most helpful to use. During meditation the intellect is not the main tool, but it is a very necessary tool.

There is spiritual literature such as "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle, which I mentioned a couple times here before. After a Vipassana course many of the things he talks about become clearer, especially what it means to be "in the present moment".

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@markal: I didn't either. Although I did 2hours a day for 5 months after the 1st course. But then I was such a wreck, "suffering and pain is the greatest motivator" as they say Have you read some spiritual books since? For example when Eckhart Tolle talks about being "in the now" and going into the body, you can relate it almost directly to the practical Vipassana experience. I think you can incorporate that into a daily active life, without daily sitting. On my 2nd course I understood much better the value of equanimity. Goenka only barely mentions it in one of the discourses. It's dead simple, just like the "natural law". It's not about good or evil, or doing something good for society. When you loose the balance of the mind, it's like you throw dirt in your eyes, it's that simple. And so, practicing staying more balanced throughout the day, you may start feeling sensations again in the body, and the attention goes there. So as I understood it, equanimity even in meditation is not so much to release the "complexes", but to allow the mind to get sharper and sharper, so that you can bring more into the conscious mind.

I feel like starting again, if only because I'd like to do a 20 day retreat some day, the requirements are much higher (2 years of daily practice). Monday I was feeling a bit strange, I almost felt like changing everything upside down in my life. Then I realized as you release some pain that has been there for a long time; there was the identification with it that has to go to, and there is a sense of being unsure about who you are or where you are going. So I think I understand now why 20 day courses have higher requirements, you have to be ready for it. I think those can seriously shake you up when you come out. For the better, but change does not come easy

I'm taking the smooth road for now, one little step at a time..

Hi, sorry for being such a newbie, but this is the first I have ever heard of Vipassana. It sounds very intriguing however. I checked out the website and it seemed very interesting, esp. as I am in Shiga which is not an hour away from Kyoto where they appear to have a "Church/Temple/Retreat?" (Sorry I am not even sure how to refer to it).

I wanted to get a little clarification however if its okay. So the 10 day retreat consists of literally 9 days with no talking? What so ever? I read that if you have medical conditions, or emergencies, etc of course you can get help, but other than that no talking?

Man that sounds like a dream to me!

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Hehe

Yes there are nine days without talking. This is for the students mainly, and anybody who is in contact with them. So technically, the assistant teachers and servers talk, but not in the meditation hall, and the servers dont talk with students when they come in from the kitchen to serve food and so on. The reason for that is to allow the mind to settle down, to improve concentration and the effects of Vipassana.

Although there is "Noble silence" for 9 days, the mind keeps on with its internal dialogues. Self reflections, thoughts about other people, about the course, and so on. This silence is "Noble" in the sense that it has a purpose. It's not self mortification or self punishment, as that would be pointless. When we talk we usually perpetuate a character that we play, "I like this", "I think that..." and so on. Much of that is our own construction. So Noble silence not only prevents you from lying, but it also helps you clear your mind from the clutter of self-made persona.

The course never takes place in a church, and is not a cult or religion. The course can take place in something that looks like a temple, for traditional reasons, one of the courses in India takes place in a "pagoda". It's beautiful, but the inside is the same: kitchens, accomodations, meditation hall and so on. The centers all around the world have remarkably the same setup. There is a lot of organization behind the doors that most students are not aware of, which you hear from people there. It is a collaboratibe effort, but one that does not allow for ego. All centres follow exactly the same discipline and schedule. Only the food and accomodations can differ (I hear the food's pretty nice in France ). The reason for that is that Goenka didn't want for other teachers to make their own style. You see that in Yoga, eventually the ego takes over and then so and so comes with their own style of Yoga. Vipassana is no stranger to this problem, and Goenka has set strict guidelines to avoid that the original teaching be lost and watered down due to countless variations, all of which are not in the interest of the students.

So yes, if you have any health problems, or any needs really, eg. you forgot toothpaste, or you need an extra blanket, or your back really hurts and you want to sit in a chair instead of cushion, anything you need you can talk to the "male manager" (or female manager). Those are old students who have come back to serve. Anybody who serves in a dhamma centre has already sat countless hours themselves to work on themselves.

These courses are designed for everyone, not for meditators. The trick is to catch up your sleep. Try to do the early morning meditation (4h30), and catch some sleep right after breakfast (7-8am) and a little more after the group meditation between 10-11am. I liked to take a shower at noon to lift my mood and feel energized for the rest of the day, whereas in the morning the boiler may take a while to startup the water is not so warm, or you have roommates busy in the bathroom.. Anyway you'll find your schedule after experimenting a few days. Try to sit as many of the meditations as possible but catch up sleep enough outside of the group meditations so that you sit with a fresh mind. The efforts will pay.

Thank you Fabrice for sharing your experience. I really enjoyed your "post" about Vipassana.

For me it's also a first time to hear about Vipassana.
Just wondering: How is it paid for? I googled that you can chose if you want to pay or not in form of a donation? Is that true, is there not some kind of expectation or guideline?

HerrPetersen Wrote:For me it's also a first time to hear about Vipassana.
Just wondering: How is it paid for? I googled that you can chose if you want to pay or not in form of a donation? Is that true, is there not some kind of expectation or guideline?

The retreats given in the tradition maintained by S.N. Goenka, for which Fabrice has given a link in an earlier post, are funded completely by donations almost all of which come from practitioners.

At the retreats, on the last day after silence has been ended, donations are accepted from people who have completed the course. In my experience (3 retreats), there isn't any pressure at all and no one is checking who donates and who doesn't. I do recall there being some kind of leaflet that showed typical expenses for that particular Dhamma center to host their retreats but that was it.

Usually people donate because they appreciate the value of the retreat and want to give something back but not everyone can afford a donation and that is understood.

There are many courses given by other organizations or groups that require you to pay something upfront or use the well-worn "suggested donation" which really means "required payment". However, you will not find this at all in the S.N. Goenka retreats. "Donation" means "donation" and that's all.

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Expectations? I don't think so, only Goenkaji himself during one of the last discourses talks about helping the centers with time (serving) or money (donations). He in fact jokingly mentions the way the centers were initially funded. He learned this particular Vipassana technique in Burma from Sayagi U Ba Kin. He taught it to his parents, and then some relatives. More and more people asked and so he started teaching full time. Then they started building centers in India and he said free food, and people said "You're crazy there are so many poor people here there will be a deluge of people".. and as he jokingly explained "they can come, but they must sit and meditate and respect the schedule, discipline and so on". And as it turned out, despite free food and accomodation in India they were not overwhelmed. When they came to the US, he explained how people were dubious whether it was free or paying. People expect that you pay for something good right? So either way some people will always be suspicious

PS : to be exhaustive, in India they actually use mostly paid work but that's probably because the costs are a lot smaller, and those centers are much bigger too! (ie. 300+ students instead of ~90 in Belgium)

The reason why the courses are free btw is not a question of doing "good". Goenkaji explains in the discourses that it is part of developing foundations for the practice. If people paid they would be demanding, they would want specific types of food or lodging, they would complain or they would compare with others, and just generally keep on fueling their egos "I like this" "I dont want that". Since the courses are free, you accept what is given and you can enjoy a little freedom from ego for a little while.. (of course people with allergies or health conditions can have special requirements).

They are totally transparent about the use of donations, their budget, spendings and so on. They don't bother anyone with it but if you ask you can get all the info you want, and if you want to participate, you can join the course organization "meetings".

At the end of the courses I joined there was a little tour for those interested. They showed their current and future projects, and answered any questions about costs. For example in Belgium, when I went 4 years ago there was a project to build a new meditation hall, to be able to receive more students. Fast forward last September I went and was delighted to meditate in a much larger and comfortable hall. They explained how some of these projects took time, some would take years (such as a new building for male accomodations, new teacher accomodations and so on, expanding the center..). Some projects are slow because they use a little paid work but to reduce costs they accept as much voluntary work as they can.

I reflected on this last time and realised that they function very much like "open source". What is really different between those courses and other "spiritual" retreats is that it's practice first and foremost. What they teach they apply: every person who participates in the management of the centers, every person who comes to serve, anybody who's got a say in anything there really, is a person who have sat themselves to do Vipassana. Not only that but contrary to volunteer organizations, people who serve at these centers follow the same discipline and schedule as the students! Only they sit 3-4 group meditations (those where the teachers are always present), and in between they build, cook, clean or whatever else. That's really a key concept about how they run it.

In Germany I heard they have very strict rules for classifying sects. They have a big official listing and Vipassana centers are not among them.

Another interesting point about the organisation is that Goenkaji is very old now. I was told when he passes away there will be no successor. There can't be. Teachers have always been called "assistant teachers", and the teaching will continue to be shown via DVD or audio (for non english), in order to preserve the teaching unmodified.

I could beat Goenkaji in a fight.

Great post, Fabrice. I did what I think was a Vipassana course when I was backpacking in Thailand. Fabrice's experience was very similar to mine, but there are some differences. Mine was for 29 days. Talking was technically allowed but highly discouraged. Men and women were allowed to eat and chat together, but were not allowed in each other's dorm room areas. Everyone had to wear the same clothing. There were daily interviews and individual lessons with the teacher, but no lectures. Our meditation schedule was completely our own. We could do it in our rooms, in the main hall with everyone else, or in the garden (sounds nice, but you see what happens to your ass after an hour on a marble bench). We were told to meditate for a certain number of hours each day that gradually increased to 14 hours, IIRC. There was both walking and sitting meditation (did you do walking meditation, Fabrice?). It was definitely religious. It was held in a working Buddhist temple and we were required to participate in some ceremonies and rituals. Though I never felt uncomfortable with this, there could be some who would not want to bow before a statue of Buddha. That's like the one commandment that supposed to me a gimme. The last five days was called ominously The Determination. During that period you are not allowed any contact at all with another human being except the teacher, not allowed to leave the room during the day, and not allowed to sleep. You're supposed to meditate like 24 hours a day (someone brings food to your room). I did my best, but kept nodding off. Though I did notice in general that I could get by on less sleep throughout the course.

Funny story: So I'm sitting in my room at night and I feel bugs crawling on me. You're not supposed to do anything if this happens. After my hour I opened my eyes and saw they were flying ants. I had a screen door but it was covered with ants and they were able to work their way through the screen. To discourage them I turned the light off. But after an hour of meditation the complete darkness was making me drowsy, so I lit a single candle. The next hour was complete bug-free. Success! After my hour I went to check on the candle and found that it was surrounded by dead ants who were drawn to the flame. The teachers had been pretty clear on the don't-kill-anything rule. Whoops. Well, *I* didn't kill them,　did I. I can't help it if they all killed themselves...

Another weird quirk: There was breakfast and lunch, but no dinner. The rule is no solid food after noon, but you could drink liquids. I assume at the time the rule was made, water and tea were the only non-alcoholic liquids available. But since ice cream has been introduced, and even though it's a solid, it's only solid because it's kept in the freezer. If you kept tea in the freezer it would be solid, too. So ice cream was in. The temple even sold it. So we all had these nutritious, vegetarian meals for breakfast and lunch, and then met for an ice cream dinner every day.

I don't keep up with the practice, but I found the experience very rewarding. I highly recommend it.

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Thanks for sharing your experience Wakela!

Quote:did you do walking meditation, Fabrice?

Not really, well I often walked during breaks as there isn't much else to do And Goenka encouraged to maintain awareness of sensations at all times in and out of meditations, while eating etc; for the last 3 days in order to get the most out of the remaining time.. but otherwise during group meditations (when the teachers are there) you're supposed to stay in the meditation hall for the whole 1 hour. But other periods you can take a walk outside if you need to change pace or feel drowsy.

Quote:The last five days was called ominously The Determination.

Haha, sounds like it starts less strict than a Goenka course and then ends totally hardcore. You are whetting my appetite But seriously.. I don't think you can skip the sleep.. maybe after years of daily practice.. PS: indeed that sounds very similar to Goenka's course, in the Dhamma centers, they call it in the Pali name I think "Addittana" which also means "strong determination". It's not so hard though, it's to encourage students to not move, and not open their eyes for the hour. And then you have the chance to have the insight.. when you're so totally sick of a pain or some sensation, that you don't want to worry about it anymore, and *poof* it goes away at that moment.

Quote:Though I did notice in general that I could get by on less sleep throughout the course.

Yeah I haven't experienced that yet. One guy told me he had more energy when he ate less. and he could sit all the meditations each day (most of us would sleep after the 630AM breakfast and 11AM lunch, but then you feel drowsy on the next meditation). Goenka does encourage to always "keep one third of the stomach empty" as it is good for meditation but doesn't say more about it.

As an anecdote the old students at 5pm are not supposed to eat fruits or milk, we get "lemon juice mixed with lukewarm water and honey".. I quite liked it, but still puzzled about the intended effects. I'm guessing it calms down hunger as I didn't fell hungry at all despite eating only twice per day and no hard foods at all after noon.

That sounds very similar to a Goenka Vipassana course. Do you remember the place and name where you went?

So you were taught the technique with individual lessons? That sounds quite impractical if they have many students. You didn't any written instructions with it?

Could you read or listen to audio or take notes?

I wish the Goenka courses were less scheduled sometimes.. but I guess they are enforcing a minimum discipline for the good of students.. it's really hard to know at times.. sometimes I felt so drowsy I was mumbling all sorts of negativities to myself and well actually I think on the 3rd course I even considered leaving at one time because I was pissed off that I had to sit in there when I *thought* that meditating while being sleepy was pointless (I mean when you feel the discipline has no purpose, it's discouraging). But then other times you can find out that the drowsiness is in fact part of the resistance of the mind, and if you fight it out with determination, it lifts over and soon enough you're highly focused and no drowsiness at all. It's so hard at times to trust even your own senses.

We had those ants crawling too But not as scary. I don't know ants in Thailand sounds scary to me In Belgium we had mosquitoes and flies mostly. There used to be a lot of mosquitoes in the main building but they added nets to the windows so now no more stories shared at the end of the course about who managed to not kill a single mosquito

Thank you Fabrice for sharing your experience of Vipassana. It was something I had never heard of before. Now I've read a little about it, it sounds like a powerful tool. If more people become aware of it and actually tried it, perhaps the world would be a better place. On YouTube, I watched a documentary in 5 parts called "Doing Time, Doing Vipassana" about the introduction of Vipassana courses in an Indian jail. It was a wonderfully uplifting film.

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Yeah, that movie is very moving.

Thank you for bringing it up,; here it is for those interested:

Doing time, doing Vipassana (5 parts)

Quote:Winner of the Golden Spire Award at the 1998 San Francisco International Film Festival, this extraordinary documentary takes viewers into India's largest prison - known as one of the toughest in the world - and shows the dramatic change brought about by the introduction of Vipassana meditation.

PS: interesting comments on YouTube on the third part:

Quote:Actually they did it in a prison in Alabama (of all places). They made a movie about it called Dhamma Brothers coming out soon. It was succesful but the program was shut down because some intolerant christian fanatic in a postition of power didn't approve.

Here's the site about the movie:

The Dhamma Brothers

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nest0r Wrote:I could beat Goenkaji in a fight.

Perhaps, but Goenka taught Vipassana to one thousand residents of a high security prison in India, all at once (source Doing time, Doing Vipassana - part 3 at 8:25). Who's your daddy? ;-)

It was Wat Rampoeng in Chiang Mai, Thailand. Chiang Mai is a major city in the north, so if you ever go to Thailand (and you should) you would probably go there anyway. This guy's experience was a lot like mine, though I remember better food:
http://www.travelblog.org/Asia/Thailand/...95373.html

Google has some nice pictures, too.

There was no reading or taking of notes. We were expressly forbidden from reading or writing anything. I found out when I was finished that they had been confiscating increasingly angry letters from my girlfriend. Calling her was my first objective after getting out...then Burger King and a movie.

That reminds me. When I was going into this retreat what I should do about this girl was one of the things that was really preying on my mind. We were getting very close, but I wasn't sure if I was ready to get married. At some point during the course it became completely clear to me that we should. One of the Buddhist metaphors is to imagine the surface of a lake. When the wind blows the surface ripples and the reflection of the mountains on its surface becomes chaos. Meditation stills the wind in your mind and you can see the reflection of the mountains clearly. But you can also see the fish and rocks in the water. It was totally like that. We are still married and have two kids. So if that's all I get out of the experience it was worth it. AND she's Japanese, which is of course why I am on this site telling you about it.

There were only a dozen or so foreign students. We would meet with the teacher every day and talk through a translator, either a Thai nun or a German nun. No offense to any Germans out there, but getting your mediation instruction with a thick German accent is pretty good for discipline. Maybe because of the language barrier, the lessons were pretty short and sweet and no group lectures. Each day he would had more time to each meditation session and more sessions to the day. By the end of the month sitting for an hour at a time was a cakewalk. I could do it with with my eyes closed! The instruction was really pretty simple and the key points were so often repeated that I didn't feel a need to take notes. I don't think you want to be too scholarly about it. While sitting we had to focus on these energy points or something along our bodies. Ankles, backs of the knees, groin, shoulders, etc. Every day he added a new point until we had the whole cycle. I got to where one cycle around the body points took almost exactly 30 minutes, so I didn't need a timer. I've since forgotten what all the points are.

Regarding the bugs: I think it was my last day there I saw a crushed scorpion on the ground outside the dorms. Holy Crap! I've been sitting on the floor letting bugs crawl on me for four weeks, I didn't know scorpions were part of the mix! Probably a good thing.

Another weird thing I just though of. There were freaking animals everywhere -- remember this temple is several buildings and gardens. Thais bring stray or sick animals to temples because they know the monks will take care of them, but it means the place becomes a zoo, with mangy dogs fighting each other and roosters going off all day.

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Found a much better quality trailer of The Dhamma Brothers.

"A documentary film released in 2007 about a prison meditation program at Donaldson Correctional Facility in Bessemer, Alabama." (Wikipedia).

The Dhamma Brothers movie discussion on YouTube, also talks about the Vipassana meditation technique.

Wakela Wrote:Another weird thing I just though of. There were freaking animals everywhere

Your're lucky. I've read entertaining stories about Thai monks meeting tigers and serpents in the forest.

After finishing RTK1 I went to Japan to practice Japanese and did a 10 days course in Dhamma Bhanu near Kyoto and also later on, I worked/volunteered there for two weeks cooking and cleaning so I was very surprised (but happy) to read Fabrice article about Vipassana. I never had the occasion to say that but this website rocks! In my trip in Japan last year I had occasion to meet other people that used the website regularly.. that was interesting. Like ..: ah you were the one posting those stories about the wolf (?) ...etc

keep up the good work Fabrice!

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The 10 day courses are mentionned on a reddit topic about meditation

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Here are interesting resources about practical dharma... also called "hardcore" dharma.

Pragmatic Dharma: List Of Links
http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2...-rise.html

Daniel Ingram talking about the hardcore (pragmatic) dharma movement on video:
http://vimeo.com/23539030

Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha (PDF) and Insight Practice Instructions (PDF)
http://www.interactivebuddha.com/mctb.shtml

It sounds like the guy is trying to become the Tony Robins of Dharma. I think he is missing the point. I only watched one video, but my impression was that he achieved some low level insight and misunderstands the experience he had. I am low level as well, but even I can see his ego is dangerously off the charts and that should not happen if he had an appropriate wisdom practice.