Started one.

I can get by enough in Japanese to make my point known but I've decided perhaps I should try and do so in a more comprehensible and elegant manner. I've decided to not put a collection quota on this deck though because it's not something I'm rushing for but if I find a good sentence that fully clicks with me and I want to be able to output that particular pattern/structure then in it goes.

I'm doing it English > Japanese. Long time ago I would have been in the "oooh that's bad" camp but really it's not. Kinda got sick of the few I had starting to cloud up my vocab deck and skew the numbers a little so I just separated them really.

I also figure if I'm wondering how to use a particular word or pattern then I'll find good examples and put them in so I won't have to wonder any more. Conversation night is starting up again (tonight! (水)) and I want to make good use of it instead of always sounding like I'm slow or drunk, or a mentally impaired 2 year old.

*insert montage here*

I think the biggest possible problem with output decks isn't that it'll "hurt your Japanese", or anything else like that I see on these forums. I think the bigger problem is true "output" is being able to say things on the fly and they'll almost never be the same thing you're trying to say.

I think it'd be like using SRS sentences to learn to read. There's really a lot more than 10,000 sentences in Japanese. Tell us how it goes, but make sure to do "real" output too!

I agree with you about real output being spontaneous. An output deck for me is about aqcuisition of patterns/structures/certain grammar to at least give you a reference and some building blocks to work with.

An important thing I've noticed is activation of vocab and grammar through output. What I'm talking about is ever been having a convo and you can't think of a word or how to use it correctly or whatever and then a native finishes your sentence for you and boom all of a sudden it makes sense and from that point on it sticks with you? Definitely don't want to forget any of that stuff! Anyways I can also see how drills drills drills work to ingrain patterns.

It sounds like you're past the level for this, but I think making conjugation cards would be good. Fill in the blank output decks might work too? You could have a fill in the blank, with a rough English translation too.

I'm really not sure what would work for output training, however I also don't think "input leads to output", like the AJATT guy says. Being able to read/listen obviously helps output, but they're both different skills.

Keep us updated!

@ginkers
I think output does improve as input does. But the skill needs to be trained. Just like writing japanese needs to be trained. By using kana to kanji production cards and practise writing journals,etc,etc. Input via reading+understanding is probably the easier skills to train to a high level then writing+speaking. Those take the longest, but it can all improve in time i suppose.

I don't even see how one makes an output deck. English on side side, Japanese on the other? How does that even work? Say it's "barely" on one side, what should you say? 辛うじて? 危うく? 漸く? ほんのり?

It's just not effective since an English word 90% of the time has a lot of different equivalent Japanese words, depending on context. It's not even about synonyms, it's about the same English word meaning various things in various situations.

ta12121 Wrote:@ginkers
I think output does improve as input does. But the skill needs to be trained. Just like writing japanese needs to be trained. By using kana to kanji production cards and practise writing journals,etc,etc. Input via reading+understanding is probably the easier skills to train to a high level then writing+speaking. Those take the longest, but it can all improve in time i suppose.

I should probably define what I mean by output. I really mean freely using the words. Of course kana to kanji will help writing words, but the actual use of the words used in a creative way can only be trained by using it. Knowing how to say/write a word, knowing how to use/construct sentences, etc is completely different than actually speaking on the fly.

I'd love to be proved wrong, and find a way to be able to cram it (as speaking is my weakest point now). The problem is there's just not enough time when speaking, and an unlimited combination of words, undertone, and so on.

Tobberoth Wrote:I don't even see how one makes an output deck. English on side side, Japanese on the other? How does that even work? Say it's "barely" on one side, what should you say? 辛うじて? 危うく? 漸く? ほんのり?

It's just not effective since an English word 90% of the time has a lot of different equivalent Japanese words, depending on context. It's not even about synonyms, it's about the same English word meaning various things in various situations.

It works with whole sentences. I don't bother srsing sentences for recognition but for production it's useful to start laying pathways in your brain. I'm also starting half decent speaking ability is needed to decode long, complex sentences spoken at native speed. My theory goes I've you could output it with no problems you could comprehend it even listening to it passively. That and being able to have actual conversations boosts listening and speaking so I want to get to an ok level.

mezbup Wrote:My theory goes I've you could output it with no problems you could comprehend it even listening to it passively.

I find the exact opposite is true. If you can't listen to it, it's basically impossible to say it. There's just so much undertone, context, etc that's all bundled in which is really impossible to use if you can't understand it.

I can speak half decently now (hours of conversation in one go is no problem), but there's never a time when I can say something and not yet understand it in speech.

Grinkers Wrote:

mezbup Wrote:My theory goes I've you could output it with no problems you could comprehend it even listening to it passively.

I find the exact opposite is true. If you can't listen to it, it's basically impossible to say it. There's just so much undertone, context, etc that's all bundled in which is really impossible to use if you can't understand it.

I can speak half decently now (hours of conversation in one go is no problem), but there's never a time when I can say something and not yet understand it in speech.

I wasn't saying the inverse is true. Of course if you couldn't even listen to something you're not ready to speak it yet! Though what I'm getting at is, say there's a sentence you just heard which if you read it you'd understand it but at spoken speed you're brain might fail to catch all the details fast enough to put it together in such a case I think if you could output it no problems (remember you do understand the whole thing) then that would serve to improve you're real time processing speed for comprehension I think. It's complicated but I think people can get what I'm saying. It's not magic, it requires study!

Ugh, Just had the first conversation night of the year and boyyy do I need to level my speaking ability and fast! It's always fun but I realised I switch back and forth between English and Japanese due to too many breakdowns in my ability to find the words to express myself in Japanese and since I'd rather have a conversation that flows rather than one that's completely painful I just use Japanese whenever suits.

Perhaps it's time to start power-leveling?...

Mezup, you just need to speak more, start chatting with Japanese people. In a chat situation you can easily force yourself to use zero English (use a quick dictionary check in situations if needed) and you will create those pathways needed to find the words in no-time.

Tobberoth Wrote:Mezup, you just need to speak more, start chatting with Japanese people. In a chat situation you can easily force yourself to use zero English (use a quick dictionary check in situations if needed) and you will create those pathways needed to find the words in no-time.

You're definitely right about that. Now's the time I'm thinking an hour or two a day speaking practice would be a good idea combined with some solid output focused study.

mezbup Wrote:Ugh, Just had the first conversation night of the year and boyyy do I need to level my speaking ability and fast! It's always fun but I realised I switch back and forth between English and Japanese due to too many breakdowns in my ability to find the words to express myself in Japanese and since I'd rather have a conversation that flows rather than one that's completely painful I just use Japanese whenever suits.

Perhaps it's time to start power-leveling?...

Yeah, I'm at the same level of vocabulary, with the same crappy speaking. ;; I have tickets for Japan booked for March, so I'll have no way of avoiding speaking then, though I imagine I'm going to frustrate anyone who listens to my initial attempts of conversation, haha.

My listening ability is still weak too. It's basically at 5-year old kids cartoons level.

speaking of output decks, is there a quick way in anki to turn a recognition deck into a production deck or do this for individual cards?

nadiatims Wrote:speaking of output decks, is there a quick way in anki to turn a recognition deck into a production deck or do this for individual cards?

There is but it totally depends on how the deck is set up. It would work for a deck where you have Japanese on one side and English on the other cos in the deck properties you could just create a reverse side to the deck where the cards were English to Japanese instead and it would automatically generate them all for you.

Skip the deck and get someone to talk with you for an hour a day. Over the phone is the best. Pay them if you have to.

I agree with Tobberoth.

To one up what he said, what I found very useful was talking with people who don't speak English. No matter how horrible my Japanese was, it was always better than their English. Why that's so important is, there's no temptation to switch into English (on either side).

Depending on where you are (aka not Japan), finding a Japanese who doesn't speak any English could be very hard. Skype could be a substitute, but I think being able to with the person helps a lot, especially at the beginning.