ta12121 Wrote:

mygbmygb Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:What I do is this. For example:
角番に立つ [Question card]

[Answer card]
[かど][ばん]に[た]つ
to stand at the corner of a board [You can ignore this sentence this is the "literal" translation]
to face a critical phase [This is the real translation]


Also for some sentences I don't include the translation, i just use monolingual look-ups if i can't understand the sentence. But i've gotten to the point where i can "understand" it in japanese. I just did a lot of heavy immersion/reading to understand a lot of it.

I see. So you would never make a card that was like this:

Question :to face a critical phase
Answer: 角番に立つ

?

Pretty much, never do that. Reason why is because, the langauges themselves are so different, translating isn't good. In the beginning it's good b/c you don't understand enough to understand only japanese by itself. But after a while you'll be able to understand it in context.

So never do english to japanese. I only do japanese to english, and japanese to japanese.

Sounds good. Is there a place that can give me explanations of Japanese grammar points IN Japanese or definitions of words or phrases in Japanese that I can add to my Japanese (sentences) to Japanese (explanation) cards?

mygbmygb Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:

mygbmygb Wrote:I see. So you would never make a card that was like this:

Question :to face a critical phase
Answer: 角番に立つ

?

Pretty much, never do that. Reason why is because, the langauges themselves are so different, translating isn't good. In the beginning it's good b/c you don't understand enough to understand only japanese by itself. But after a while you'll be able to understand it in context.

So never do english to japanese. I only do japanese to english, and japanese to japanese.

Sounds good. Is there a place that can give me explanations of Japanese grammar points IN Japanese or definitions of words or phrases in Japanese that I can add to my Japanese (sentences) to Japanese (explanation) cards?

Hmmm, I'd say just use a monolingual dictionary(if you're japanese is at the level where you can understand it by itself, then I recommend you do it.) As for the sources, I don't have any at the moment. I usual just srs from a variety of stuff. I am going to review basic grammar in the summer,etc.

mygbmygb Wrote:Sounds good. Is there a place that can give me explanations of Japanese grammar points IN Japanese or definitions of words or phrases in Japanese that I can add to my Japanese (sentences) to Japanese (explanation) cards?

I saw this link from IceCream. It's all about Japanese grammar in Japanese
http://www.geocities.jp/niwasaburoo/index.html

Plus, most online dictionaries (Yahoo and Goo mainly) have J-J dictionaries. As they're designed for natives, they'll be a bit deep.

However, starting off then using Tae Kim and Core 2k/6k should be more than enough to get you to the level to use the above J-J resources.

Lately, my reading study method has been like this.

I apply them to the following Japanese reading sources:

Japanese TV Drama script (I divide the episode into 5 minutes segments)
FNN news story (1-2 stories per day depending on length)
Hiragana Times Magazine (Japanese-English bilingual magazine)
Cooking
Exercise
Taiko

I have japanese books for the last 3 topics. I'm taking weekly classes (completely in Japanese) for these 3 hobbies. So I actually have an incentive to keep improving every week.

I don't do all 6 topics every day. Basically, I just go with the flow
and choose whatever I'm interested in that day.

Reading method:

1)Type out 1 page of text (while saying the words aloud). I don't make any effort
to understand the sentences. I just recite them aloud (there are no furigana, so
I'm forced to remember everything). This is mostly to test my knowledge
of kanji readings. If I don't know the pronunciation, I use my Mac OSX Japanese
dictionaries to find out.

2)Run a custom java script I wrote to read a page of text and extract all the
unique kanji that appear on that page. Often 30-50 kanji. With 60%-80% success,
that's 10 to 20 failed kanji per reading.

3)Erase my entire RevTK deck and enter all the kanji in step #2. Do a review to find out which kanji I don't know on the page I'm reading. Study all failed kanji.

4)Read the page again, but this time focus on figuring out what the sentences are saying.

Also, I keep my "All About Particles", "How to tell the difference between Particles" and jgram.org handy for grammar reference.

5)Done.

6)If I'm feeling lucky, I try to write out the words (by hand) while dictating the sentences. I rarely do this step, but once in a while I feel like doing it.


I purposely keep readings at 1 page to limit the number of kanji reviews.
Keeping readings small makes them easier for me to digest.

For the last 3 topics, my weekly classes serve as conversation practice.
So I do get some real-world experience.

My way of doing things:

Currently
SRS
One deck with Core2000+Core6000+JLPT4+3+2 vocabulary and recently JLPT grammar sentences, using 4 different card models for vocab[cards added by me], sentences[cards added by me], iknow vocab[lists from smart.fm] and iknow sentences[lists from smart.fm].

I activate cards in groups of 100 and do it when either my daily reviews fall below 300 or I have more time. Over the last 6 months I managed to average almost 30 cards per day this way. During commute I use custom modified experimental build of AnkiDroid to fight off at least a part of my daily load.

Grammar&Production
Individual lessons with a native Japanese speaker. I also began adding JLPT grammar sentences to my main deck.

Immersion
Lots of J-Pop (Utada Hikaru, Stereopony, Rikki & Yui) in the background and occasionally anime.

Previously
Grammar
Reading KM JLPT 3 Grammar during my commute.

I'll update this if something changes.

I should post my "study" method. Although I don't really have one, it's more about a lot of srsing,immersing,etc. But here is the break down:

Reading: First off I try to read what I enjoy, srs a lot and get audio for what I'm listening to. This helps so much. I try to watch japanese stuff with j-subs, this helps me match what they are saying, at native-speeds.

Listening: I keep listening, listening and more listening. I couple this with srsing and reading/vocab deck. Eventually I went from 10% hearing , to now literally almost 100% understanding in almost everything(Basically means I can understand the majority of everything I hear now)

Speaking: At the moment I foreshadow from what I listen to/read. This seriously helps you gain that native-pronunciation/speed. I do plan on scheduling days for which I can speak with native-speakers. But I haven't gotten to that just yet.

Writing- This is heavily dependent on my immersion/reading/listening and my production deck I use. I try to write kanji here and there nowadays. Since I can write it just fine, I don't want it so much anymore. I have a production deck going from kana to kanji. It just helps my visualize kanji/readings asscoiated with them.

Grammar: In the beginning I was really worried about it but, I noticed after reading/immersing a lot. I took a second look at the grammar points and I could understand it easily/how it was used. So this definitely is linked to immersing in the language to better suit yourself with grammar points(which can be confusing if you just look at it without anything else)

Numbers: If your thinking about the numbers, example would be number of reps,cards,etc I do for per day. It is high but I tend to immerse a lot as well. This does add up in a year or so. I believe that it's more important your consistent daily then doing huge amounts daily/weekly. If you can maintain it daily, your going to improve so much in a few months.

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wellcom to VietNam

My new method:

Remove all cards from revtk. (only do this once).

Then,

1) Use a custom program I wrote to extract all rtk kanji in a file (either Japanese drama subtitles or fnn-news articles).

2) Add these kanji to revtk and review.

Basically, the idea is to only review kanji you've seen in
Articles, tv shows, manga, light novels, etc.

When you see a kanji you don't know add it to your revtk deck.

From my experience, an individual drama episode has about 450
Unique kanji. But over the course of the entire series, maybe there are only 700-750 unique kanji total (roughly 1/3 of rtk1).

If you never encountered a certain rtk1 kanji in real life, it won't be in your deck.


Of course, this method is to be used after you've finished rtk1.

Method:
A mixture of AJATT and stuff from here and other websites. (8 months spent studying: 4 months 'really studying' - you need to learn how to learn first, usually.)

How I started out...
I began by learning Japanese through Smart.fm. I managed to cover steps 1,3 and 4 before deciding that the system they use to 'teach' the vocabulary they present was/is too slow and time consuming.

Somewhere in the middle...
During my time studying Japanese I have done quite a few different things to get to where I am (pre-intermediate, to give it a label, Japanese listener/reader/writer and high beginner speaker). Here's a sample:

*RTK1: I used 'the lazy Kanji method' (see AJATT) to cover the first 2000 or so Kanji. It took 1 month to do and 2 months to solidify in my brain. My retention is somewhere in the 1000-1500 Kanji range now (3 months later).

*Sentence decks: I stopped and started a lot with this. I started out doing sentences from the 8000 sentence Anki deck (I moved to Anki after smart.fm as my SRS of choice). This turned out to be too slow for me, as I could only cover 20-30 new sentences a day with a few hundred reviews. Envitably, the stress got to me and I traded up to the 'all about particles' deck with its 1000 odd sentences. This worked well for me and I completed it reasonably quickly as the vocabulary was mostly known to me (say 60% of the vocabulary in the whole deck).

*Writing: In an AJATT post I read sometime ago, Khatz suggests that you should "Never let a day pass without filling out a full A4 sheet of paper with normal size Kanji." This, I feel, is pretty good advice if you have the time and I found for me that combined with RTK reviews and the 'Kanji Stroke Order Font' (found via this forum) that it really improved my writing. That said, I only really managed 3 lines or so within a given day as I am just too busy.

What I do know... (my method)
The following is a breakdown of what works for me and why.

*Mass listening: On any given day I can usually clock up 5-15 hours of listening. At first I did music and now I have moved to podcasts. Following the AJATT method (or part of it), understanding is not as necessary as training hearing; Hence, "You can't understand what you can't hear" is a fairly important phrase to remember. Result: I can repeat back anything, I can hear particles and endings easily, fast speech is no problem. (Note: starting with music really helps to build up your ability to hear at pace, especially if you like Japanese rap.)

*Vocabulary deck: I recently went beserk on doing vocabulary and have seen some fairly good results from it (my grammar understanding was already fairly good due to the grammar decks I did earlier.) Currently I am doing the core 6000 deck and plan to add all of the coreplus 22,000 word deck after completing the last 600 words. At this point I am doing 10 day rotations where I do 1500 words in a 3 day window and then reduce those over the next 7 days. My daily reviews are around 1000 for a few days, but die down to about 300 after the 10 days are up. I plan to stop doing this shortly though as it is too stressful and just do 50 words a day after I hit 6000-10,000 words (please note that I have recently set a review target of only 500 a day as I feel I am losing out on reading time.) - stats: 2.1 months (-5 to 10 days as I started late); around 200 hours put in; 7 hours vocabulary a day.

*TV listen and repeat: One of the things I really like, but don't have time for right now (vocab reviews) is watching TV and repeating out loud what is said (or parts of). I've found that my understanding increases significantly while doing this and my pronouncation is getting A LOT better due to it. I highly recommend this if you have the listening skills and basic pronouncation ability to do this. It's called 'shadowing' - see youtube for a few good videos about it.

*Reading: I bought 'Deathnote' Volumes 1-5 recently for a 150 yen or so (I live in Japan - not as big as advantage as you might think). They have furigana over everything (the editor probably thought it was easier to do the lot than be selective). I've also read 'Air Gear' volume 1 with about 30% understanding (slangy, but has furigana). Also, with 'Deathnote' I am managing about 50% or so. Overall, I don't read much right now, but can sort of understand things that I see. My main problem, a residual effect from RTK, is that I read Kanji in English, something most language learners tend to do, regardless of language, at first. #Please note I don't use a dictionary a lot, I just skip it and come back if I feel like it later - reading is difficult, so, as with everything, I try to make it easy enough that I want to do it.

*Speaking: I don't, to be honest. I work with Japanese people, but can't really manage much beyond the basic low level stuff. I think this is because I, honestly, don't feel like it (or more realistically I haven't practiced enough so I feel afraid - a language learner's main enemy). That said, I understand about 50% of what people are saying to me or around me, so I just nod my head, mix English and Japanese or use a conversation filler (such as 'ehhhhh', そだね, or whatever - thanks to the "fluent in 3 months" website for that tip) and try to keep them talking.

For the future...

*Dictation: To be honest, those vowel sounds mid-word are pretty tough to write down for me. Sometimes I'll ask someone how to say something and want to write it down, but I just can't encode speech to text yet. I plan to use smart.fm dictation to help with this.

*More speaking and a 22,000+ vocabulary. Think about it: the average Japanese dictionary is 75,000 words (see wikipedia). Now if I know 70% of a English dictionary passively and maybe can use 40% actively, I need to know around the 40,000+ mark (passively) in Japanese to be considered to be an adult here.

*Restarting RTK to get those 500 odd Kanji that haven't stuck, firmly stuck. (note: that vocabulary reviews have really helped to fix this and extend my understanding overall of the Kanji I do know.)

*Fix my pronoucation enemy: つ. It has fossilized into either す or つ depending on the word. (Usually words that start with つ are more of a problem. Wierdly, it's ok if it's repeated, but sometimes not from remembered words.)

In a nutshell...

Smart.fm then RTK1+mass listening (music->podcasts) then grammar and writing RTK then vocabulary+reading+listening & repeating+some speaking.

Recommedations:
1) Do RTK if you can. It does help.
2) Do lots of 'hearing'
3) Read sooner if you can (it's hard to look up words in conversation, but books are easy).
4) Get some Skype friends and do Lang-8 (I dabbled with it a bit myself).
5) Shadow as soon as possible.
6) Being in Japan means nothing if you don't use it. Japanese books and TV are available for a price in most countries; Japanese speakers and classes are available in most places (i.e. Skype). Realistically, you don't need Japan, you just need lots of media and friends.
7) When you can: use Anki less and the real world more, but don't be afraid to use it when you need it.
8) Take classes if you want to. They do help with speaking (You are good at what you practice. What you don't practice you suck at. Think about how many hours you have put into your career, whatever it might be, you don't get good without time and practice. Speaking, listening, reading, writing, understanding, etc. don't happen, you practice making them happen - and do them, of course.)

Notes:
The average study day for me is 'reps' on the train, 'reps' at work, 'reps' at home, reading at night, listening throughout. I spend 6-7 hours 'actively studying' and 12 hours 'passively studying' these two numbers OVERLAP each other (i.e. 6-7 of 12 hours.)

I hope that helps. Sorry about the length and any Seplling msitakse.

Oh, and I do most of my study on my Iphone using the Anki Iphone app. It was probably the best investment in my Japanese yet (Manga, reps, books, websites, newspapers, music, podcasts [thank you Itunes], steaming audio, everything available, all the time!)

@Cranks
That's a very impressive study routine you've developed. I envy the amount of time you have free to study every day. How do you have so much free time?

And, yes, an iPhone is a godsend for any language learner. Anki, learning materials, and native media available anywhere I go? Yes, please!

Thanks for sharing the methods.It will help people over here.

@vileru
Actually, I work 7 days a week with most days being 8 to 14 hours (about 63 hours of work a week, not including commute). I, basically, study on the train, at work (there's always somewhere your boss can't see you), at home, while bycling and while walking. I can't remember where, but there was a blog post by a lawyer in Tokyo who basically:

* Woke up and put on his podcasts, which his computer automatically downloaded (news apparently)
* Read a little bit of the newspaper during breakfast.
* SRS repped on his IPOD/IPHONE while listening to podcasts for the 20 minute walk to the station.
* SRSed for a bit on the train then did work while listening to podcasts/music for the duration of the train ride (40 minutes?)
* SRSed while listening to podcasts for the 10 minutes to the station.
* Had podcasts or music running at work through his second computer (head phones probably) and had a special screen saver that he set up to show him vocabulary he was having issues with.
* Reading during lunch and between meetings (novels, I think?).
* SRSed on the way to the train while listening.
* SRSed and then worked on the train while listening.
* SRSed on the way home while listening.
* He also had a Japanese speaking spouse, so I have to assume he spent some time talking to her in the evening.

I pretty much stole his method and built on it.

I use 5 decks.
they are

RTK

Vocab (in sentences/not in sentences - like some of it I have just the word but in hirgana or katakana so i don't cheat off the kanji)

sub2srs - it's nice b.c. there's audio. I find it really helpful to hear words that aren't used that often (at least that's where i am now... i cannot stand the boring dialogue of bad/cliche dramas)

These 2 decks I made/make from youtube/other video-streaming sites, books I enjoyed reading.
YOME deck - I have the word in kanji or the word in the sentence on the front and basically i have to read it/know the meaning. I find it really helpful to learn the readings of kanji that don't show up frequently enough to the point i forget it over and over or i see a lot but i never hear anyone say it and so it's hard to learn the reading.

So like while I watch my japanese show on youtube or other streaming-sites i take a screenshot so I know what show it is and the situation, plus they have the word on the bottom since they have huge text everywhere ( i personally appreciate it)

Some things are over little details like... 脱衣所　だついじょ is jo not sho.. when the readings change like this.

I started this deck like after i learned most of the readings of all the common kanji (the 2000) from immersion/exposure/having fun... i wonder if it would've been good to start this deck earlier...

other ex:
衰える
おとろ

礎
いしずえ

貶す
けなす

天賦の才能
てんぷ：　生まれつき．天性．

Fill in the Blank deck
This is from youtube（take the screenshots.）/books too. Basically I just find grammar structures or words that i can understand but can't say? (like certain grammar structures i have no problem understanding... but i couldn't make that grammar structure myself for sure typestuff)... just use the anki to take advantage of the short term memory (stretching it out to long term memory).

I like it cause it's easy to make since i don't have to type out anything usually... just paint and cut/paste. and the benefits are awesome. i think it's more effective than if i were to put this stuff in my vocab deck with me just trying to remember what the word means (i usually get careless/lazy while doing that deck) . on the other hand this deck forces me to be active but still not that hard of a deck to do..


ex.　(note: these are all actually screenshotsof the shows in my deck.. and i just typed out for the sake of you knows)

Ｆｒｏｎｔ：老け＿見えて
Ｂａｃｋ：　て

虹ちゃんを好き＿は相葉くんですよ
なの

今やバラエティ番組では＿ない存在に
欠かせ

恋愛インタビュー＿マジで答えるな
に

もうかけて＿でください
こない

ネタを次から次＿考えるのは大変だと思うんだ
へと

The most successful study session I had was when there was a big storm in the area and the power went down. I couldn't use my computer or get on the internet. So I just sat in candle light all night and did kanji reviews with the book.

I went through 700 kanji that night and it wasn't difficult at all. Under normal circumstances, 50 feels like a chore. But when the power is down and you can't goof off on the internet (like read a forum, you know) there's just nothing else to do on a dark night but fire up some candles and see your study productivity go up 1000x.

*Updated with 7 day retention results*

I was asked by a few people to post about the current method I'm developing and testing. Seeing as this method is experimental, I make no claims that you'll see results and there's a good chance your mileage will vary from anything I receive. Seeing as the method is a work in progress, this post is also a work in progress. Don't let this stop you from trying it anyway. I would appreciate feed about your results if you do indeed give it a try. (I will be posting research links as I get around to them.)

For now I am calling this the KM Method (working name). I am well aware of the timing similarities to the Pimsleur language learning system/Graduate-Interval Recall method and all similarities are coincidental.

First off, if you plan on drinking, taking sleeping pills/cold-medicine, getting a poor night's sleep the day you try this method, don't bother doing this method then. This method hinges on your REM and SWS type sleep stages and by screwing with these as a lot medicine does, you are almost guaranteed to get extremely lowered results from this method. I have not fully tested the effects of caffeine or other drugs on this method either (or the state of detox of such drugs).

Method info: This method is based off books I've been reading about the Brain and Memory. A lot of it also comes from the book Brain Rules. The idea behind the method is that the brain has evolved to memorize in specific ways. Since it hasn't been that long since we were cavemen, a lot of how our brain worked before, still works now. One thing that our brain was made to do is remember the important and basically forget everything else. This is most likely why our sense of smell can recall memories so well as we would of smelled if food was similar to good or bad food we had ate before. Of course stuff is only important if it's repeated and is sustained, as if you only see something for 10 seconds and never again, it probably wasn't very important. This probably worked for things such as pain, predators and food. If a tiger could only chase you for 15 seconds and you could easily escape, then it probably was never much of a threat and could be forgotten safely. Studies have shown that our brains will forget things in little as a few seconds if unimportant and will forget just about anything if not repeated within 30 seconds. This would be the initial encoding of the memory. Of course since Japanese is not a food or a predator, it's somewhat tough to label it as 'Super Important' to the brain. Theoretically a lot of the problems start right here for learning Japanese. But luckily our brains as adapted to learn through repetition and this where the bulk of my method will focus on.

This method mostly works with declarative memory.

We're gonna need some tools first. The tools can be different but you're probably going to need at least something that substitutes these tools.

I use:

Libre Office for spreadsheets. (3 spreadsheets at once) (Any spread sheet or word processing software will do.)
http://e.ggtimer.com/ for all my timing needs.
A simple clock with a second hand.
Pen/Pencil and Paper <- very important.
An SRS program.


Environment

You'll want a relaxing place and all your tools set up before you do this. For me I'm at my computer with a tray for my paper and pen. I have 3 spread sheets open, one for the list I want to learn, one for the memories that I have that are still living (Words/Kanji I still remember) and one for the memories that have died (Stuff I forgot). You'll want several timers open. You'll need one set for 9 minutes, one for 85 minutes and one for 100 minutes. These exact times are a work in progress and I'm thinking of maybe even lowering the 80 minute one, but we will see how testing goes. I use the e.ggtimer.com timers as I just set them and once I have to reset them I just hit refresh and it does it for me. You'll also want a clock open somewhere pretty much at all times so you can count your seconds, I'd use a timer, but the time is so small it's not worth setting up. You can use the windows desktop clock, but a real clock sitting somewhere on your desk or wall would probably be better. The SRS program is used after a day is done, so don't worry about setting it up now.

I suggest having a list of stuff you want to memorize ahead of time. Trying to find stuff mid-process will probably be slow and tedious.

Here we go.

Step 1: Encoding

First, to remember the word (we're just going to be using word for now as typing word/kanji/reading is excessive) you have to memorize it, which is basically encoding it in to your brain. The typical best type of encoding is Semantic Encoding, which is basically encoding information that has meaning or context. You can use things like chunking, mnemonics or stories in your head to give meaning. RTK uses chunking (putting together similar kanji) and of course the stories to help you remember. Other types of encoding are Visual, Acoustic and Tactile. Visual is as it says, visual whatever you can see with your eyes and you 'mind's eye' goes here. Next we have Acoustic which involves sounds and words, so anything you hear. Next we have Tactile, which is using your sense of touch to encode memories. These are the only important ones we'll be using right now as the memory encoding for taste probably shouldn't be used for your word studies (Wouldn't taste so good ).

What are objective here is to use as many encodings as possible while attempting to learn a word. Studies have shown that the more encodings used, the better the memory. You can use your own encoding strategies including some I mention of forgoing some that I mention. If some/all work for you, great. If they don't, try something different.

Let's start with Semantic from my list. First, in your your list you'll want to sort all words by a certain definition, whether it's reading, or starting kanji or radical or some other means. This will help by 'chunking' the data together. A word of caution though as chunking too many similar items can lead to confusion when it comes to encoding, especially with kanji. Though Heisig tends to pepper learners with kanji that have the same radical in higher numbers, it may better to spread these out if you are having trouble. If possible, you'd throw in whatever story you'd have made up if you had a story for it. A story is not needed, but it certainly helps.

Next we have visual. You'll want to see the word first, get a good look for it, and then try to see it in your 'mind's eye' (in your head) when you stop looking at the kanji. If you know how to do flash bulb/photographic memory, using that will be a big help (I use this, been able to do it since I was very young). 'Photographing' won't keep it in permanent memory, but it will help the encoding process as it repetitious and forces your mind to basically recalculate a picture of said object with your brain.

Next is Acoustic. All I do is say out the reading of the word out loud. So basically you just have to say something whether it's the meaning or reading or whatever about the word.

Next is Tactile. RTK suggest writing down each kanji. What I do for tactile is write down whatever I'm learning. Studies have shown that your brain is activated more if you write or even draw while learning something and will retain that memory better. I like to write out the kanji and kana readings. This helps with muscle memory when it comes to actually writing Japanese, but studies have shown it's a 'use or lose' type of memory and that Japanese people who don't write the kanji lose the ability to write it accurately or at all, yet they can still read the kanji, so I don't suggest just writing the kanji once in your lifetime.And since just the act of scribbling can activate the encoding, it's suggested you scribble or draw simple things while listening to stuff to better remember audio.
While you're writing, you'll want to look at what's coming out of your pen, and not stare at the that which you are coping. If you're writing, eyes to the paper.

The trick is, we want to do all these, at the same time. After initially getting the word into your head via sight, you'll want to do in whichever order (haven't figured out which is the best order) each encoding method and do which you can at the same time, like writing a kanji and saying it's reading at the same time. After you've done everything you wanted to do you'll wait for a certain number of seconds (which I will get to in step 2), then you would recheck the word to make sure you had it absolutely perfect. If you didn't, restart. (It's okay to draw the kanji while looking up to double check it though, just make sure your eyes are looking at your hand while writing.)

(Research sites to be posted later, just take my word for it right now. I'll track them all down in due time.)

Step 2: Timing

This method requires specific times to review your words as a form of SRS (although a lot more overkill in the first day than something like Anki, but less reviews afterwards). You'll be interacting with the word a total of 7 times in a single day. Once to encode it, once at before 30 seconds, once before 10 minutes, 3 times before 90 minutes and once right before you go to bed. This is just for day 1. After that you'll want to review in the morning after day 1(to make sure you remembered the words), again in 3-4 days and after that I don't have really any data but the trend from Pimsleur seems to multiple in factors of a bout 5-6. Using this as a guide, the next review would be 15-24 days, then 2.5-4.8 months and then 1-2.4 years (This is just an educated guess as I don't have enough data to support it either method). After that, if you still haven't seen what you wanted to memorize in the wild, chances are it probably wasn't worth learning ()
Also, Brain Rules suggests that twice a year should be fine (probably until your memories migrate from your hippocampus, which can take a bout a decade.) I would still review after 3/4 of a month though and then on the 1/4 of a year mark first.
Or you could just Anki or Super Memo and choose 3 or 4 earlier on.

The times have listed are the most amount of time you should wait before reviewing. If you wait too long, your memory might die. Basically, what happens is when you encode a memory, neurons are activated in your brain. They will maintain having the status of a memory for a certain length of time. If they re-stimulated at a certain time, they will go longer without needing to be re-stimulated. If the neurons are not re-stimulated, the neurons basically reset themselves, acting as if the memory never even happened in the first place! So we got to keep them re-stimulated. If the neuron is still active, the memory is alive, if the neuron is deactivated, the memory is effectively dead. (This is where I get my Live/Dead memory terms from.

To summarize.

1: Encode the memory and review the original item after encoding perfectly.
2: Do something else for about 20-25 seconds and then review the items again.
3. Review the items again at about 9 minutes.
4. Review the items again at about 85 minutes.
5. Review the items again at about 85 minutes.
6. Review the items again at about 85 minutes.
7. Review the items again right before you go to bed.

After day 1 review in 3-4 days and then review to taste. (Need more data to confirm after that amount)

Step 3: Cycling

Now you're probably thinking, 'Doing one at a time is gonna be really slow...' but I have a solution for that. The brain can handle 7 (plus or minus 2) things at the same time. Unfortunately the more complicated the item, the less we can hold at one time. So what we do is what I call 'groups'. What I do is I grab 3 words from my list to remember and stick them in my 'Live' list. I will then go through each of these 3 using the encoding method. After reviewing them, I would wait 15 seconds and then review all 3 words. You're probably thinking '15 seconds, why not 25?'. The reason for this is the you have to review before 30 seconds for your oldest item. So I have to review all 3 words before 30 seconds is up. So, I wait 15 seconds and then it takes me about 10 seconds to review all 3. If I have remembered them (and I usually will at this stage) then they stay in my 'Live' list. If I remembered them incorrectly, I toss them into the 'Dead' list. If they are Dead I pretty much have to relearn them from scratch so they stay in this pile as to not mix up my original list. When I start a day, In will turn on the 9 minute timer and the 100 minute timer. I will keep doing groups of they until the 9 minute timer goes off. Once it goes off, I immediately drop everything I'm doing and review all the words I have in my 'Live' list in what I call a set (A set being 9 minutes worth of items). Any I forget go into the Dead pile. I will then make the 9 minute set with some colour from the spread sheet software. A 9 minutes set does not need to be reviewed again until 85 minutes is up and this only has to be done 3 times at 85 minutes for each set. After you review the 9 minute set, restart the 9 minute timer and repeat the process until the next timer goes off.
Now here's the kicker.

Here we review ALL the words you've done for the entire day as long as they haven't been reviewed 3 times in 85 minute intervals. This can be a lot of words, like 300+ depending how fast you're working. You'll want to start your next 85 minute timer before you start reviewing. As always, any you forget go in the Dead pile. At this point I mark off where the 90 minute cycle ended. Start the 9 minute timer and repeat that process until the 85 minute timer goes off again. Repeat until you're so sick of learning you puke, or until it's time to go to bed. Before you go to bed though, you should review ALL the words for the entire day. (I know, cruel and unusual punishment) The reason for this one is to keep your memories alive long enough to hit REM and SWS sleep which basically is like a hyper SRS agent, your brain will literally repeat the things it remembers thousands of times rapidly while you sleep. If this process is interrupted or skipped by any means (drugs, sirens, kids jumping on your bed) you could lose tons of what you learned the previous day, especially if you awake mid-cycle. They basically go poof and they are gone. This is why good sleep is SUPER important to have the night after doing this method.

It's crucial to stick to the 30 seconds and less rule, but it starts getting fuzzy after that. There's a lot more leeway the more time in between review there is. It all depends on your environment and physiology for how long or short the best review times are. You might be able to get away with 11 minutes instead of 9, or you may be able to do groups of 5 words effectively instead of 3. The times I gave you are basically landmarks on the time map, try and see what times work best for you based on these land marks. Experiment.

So in summary:

A group is 1-7 items.
A set is 10 minutes of learning items.
A cycle is 90 minutes of learning items.
Group much be re reviewed before 30 seconds after encoding.
Groups must be reviewed before 10 minutes after encoding.
Sets must be reviewed before 90 after encoding.
Cycles must be reviewed 3 times in total, this includes the first time.

Step 4: SRS

Here is where I use Anki. After I wake up in the morning, I would randomize and import my 'Live' list into Anki as a new deck or addition to another deck. From here I set Anki to do the specific days I wanted (3 days for button 2, 25 for button 3 and 3 months for button 4.) Then I just use Anki to review. I haven't had enough time to test the long term benefits of this method but I will keep track of my retention rate and adjust the days to review according to what fits me best. If you try this method, you'll have to see what fits for yourself.

Step 5: Extras

You should be doing this while walking to improve retention as you get exercise plus more oxygen which helps your brain retain more. If anyone thinks of a way to do this with a specially designed treadmill with a computer attached to it, that'd be awesome. What I did for exercise was fidgeted and listen to high energy music to get my heart rate up.
Funny thing is, I had the least amount of words die on me when I was listening to music I REALLY liked and was singing along to the words. I will have to look more into this. Slow music/music I wasn't familiar with gave the worst retention rate though.
Motivation or lack there for of was my biggest hindrance in this method. When you take a look at 240 words and realize you have to review them all, it can kind of suck. I think the ability to learn more words in a day is like a muscle, start off smaller and add more each time your do it to build up your 'learning muscles'. So don't feel bad if you only do 50-100 in one day.
Also, don't lie about your scores, it's not gonna help you one bit if you lie to yourself or others about it. If something is not working for you, try it a different way or move on. This includes this method.
I noticed the longer I worked at it for any given time, the better my retention was. If I took breaks, and still added words, my retention dropped.

Step 6: Concluding

Using this method I studied for about a total of 4 hours and retained 238/240 (99.2%) after 24 hours (March 6th) and 227/238 (95.4%) after 72 hours (March 9th). Note, I was feeling sick and having a REALLY bad day when I took the second test which were things going again me when taking that test, which just shows the staying power effect that the method had for me. (The way I was feeling, I should of just bombed the test out right.) I tested it after 7 days (March 13th) and ended up with 219/227(96.0%) this latest test bringing the total to 219/240 (91.3%). Another bad day too. Tested after 18 days (March 23rd) while pretty much half asleep and really wanting to go to bed and not feeling good. 216/219 (98.6%) and the total being 216/240 (90.0%).

This method might not work for you, it's experimental after all. If you do try it, please let us all know how it went and how you did it. Any questions/ideas/suggestion/criticism are welcome.

(*Warning* This post is a work in progress.)

KMDES

Can you give us another update? Your intriguing me

bbvoncrumb Wrote:KMDES

Can you give us another update? Your intriguing me

I just did my 2 week and some odd review last night (I actually put off the review a few extra days). I have the data at home but if I recall correctly, it was at about 88% total recalled. I'll get the accurate data when I get home.

Update: As of 18months of learning Japanese so far.

Reading: Thanks to the srs, the meaning/usages of many kanji are easy to memorize/learn for the long-term. So in terms of reading/srsing. Anyone can gain a high level of reading ability if you use the srs correctly and read a lot of fun material along the way

Listening: One should srs vocab words that are common in the beginning phases and it will increase your listening skills a lot. Although reading/srsing transcripts is a good way to increase your listening as well. It increase your understanding/connections between what you hear and in it's kanji form. So keep srsing/reading/srs common terms/vocab and your bound to improve and get better.

Writing: If you really want to write better/well, it's quite simple. Keep writing. But how do we keep it for the long-term? Make a production deck for writing kana to kanji. For the common stuff obviously. Although one can say if it's only from kana to kanji/a small translation if needed. Won't I mix up the kanji with other ones? Well what I do is try to recall all the kanji with that kana from memory. I've been having a lot of success because I keep srsing and rating it accordingly. If one needs to, give a hint or give some context in order to write the kanji in the right context(small sentence). So if one keeps doing this, you'll be able to write from memory with ease. And if you keep reading, you will be able to understand what is required for you to write down(i.e. filling out forms in jp,paying bills,writing orders,etc)

Speaking: This one isn't hard but from a lot of other people experiences, one year should see anyone conversationally fluent. Obviously I still suck horrible but thanks to immersing, it's getting better and better. As for native speakers to correct you at any time(preferably in Japanese is possible). Depending on the person, they are willing to correct at any time. So keep immersing,intimidating and you'll get smoother/naturally at speaking.

What are my thoughts of reaching fluency and how long would it take for me?
If it took me this long to get really good(1.5 years). I'd say another 1.5 years to get fluent and I would be able to confidently say that and back it up fully. That's how I see it at least.

So the range of 3-5 years sound realistic to me for that "fluency" range.

ta12121 Wrote:Update: As of 18months of learning Japanese so far...

Plus 1 year of college level Japanese classes - or are you still pretending they don't count?

aphasiac Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:Update: As of 18months of learning Japanese so far...

Plus 1 year of college level Japanese classes - or are you still pretending they don't count?

Actually that was only a semester of level one Japanese course I took at night. So it was half a year but yea it doesn't really count. I forgot almost all I learned, even the kana.

I would say since I wasn't really so into learning at that time, that it doesn't count.

Introduction:
I will try to make this as concise as possible.

Tools
• Ankimobile
• Manga/Anime/films
• Subs2srs


What?
I do four kinds of cards.
• Subs2srs: Anime Video Cards.
• Subs2srs: Song Cards.
• Photo: Manga Frame Cards.
• Grammar: N4-N2 Kanzen Deck.
I do the following as well.
• Relistening and, sometimes rewatching, anime, films, etc.
• Watching TV with subtitles (or none, depending).
(Please see below for images.)

Video Cards and Song Cards
• Less than 20 cards per day (less than 7,500 sentences per year)
• Primarily text gloss using Japanese and grammar notes using DOJBG (I take photos) or, more often, Gengo Japanese Iphone Application (I snapshot using my iPhone)
Link: For questions about Subs2srs see here
Example



Text Gloss Example


Manga Cards
• When I feel like it.
• I just photograph whatever interests me in the manga I am reading and add the image to my card. I usually focus on one piece of dialogue or one frame at a time. You can use any of the various photo improvement or photography apps to automatically enhance the image (If you use Anki it will often be too small to be readable and no zoom.)
• I text gloss and look up grammar points as above.
Example


Grammar Deck
• Clozed delete deck.
• Taken from various sources around the internet and distilled into a usable format.
• It's not perfect, but works ok.
• Note: I have found that just text glossing my anime cards gives me enough grammar as it is and is way more context rich. I am about a low N3 right now. I will probably add 1 grammar card from this deck per day or two days. I haven't decided. In combination with other forms of grammar study it is very, very powerful. <--- In my opinion.
Example



Other...
• I have Japanese cable and a DVD recorder; hence, subtitles. You can buy DVDs and rewatch them for the same effect, which is probably better anyway.
• I relisten to the same music and audio from the videos (in full) that I learn in Anki over and over.

Stop reading here.
The following is 'why' I do this. It's not really that important and will differ from your own ideas on learning and how things should be done, so its probably not worth reading as 'how' is way more useful - take my ideas and use them if you like; this is the best way.

Why?
• My goal is understanding media to about 100%, particularly Anime and films, and being able to read to a intermediate level (enough to get by on most basic texts needed for daily life, for instance short documents, and manga, of course - it's way better in Japanese). This is pretty much "why" I need Japanese anyway.
• Considering the above, I am working on receptive skills. Thus, lots of listening, lots of understanding does it for me.
• It's just so short. I only want to spend an hour a day actually studying because I have other things I want to do too. That's why I only focus on listening and reading. I used to study 3-5 hours a day. Now I don't and I'm happier for it.
• Combining audio, video and reading with things I actually want to understand is the most powerful approach and the thing you should take away from all this. The power of getting vocabulary, structures and language from something you think is interesting is so much more effective than random vocabulary and word lists. Also, sentences are powerful if made using subs2srs and good subs. <--- This is only my opinion.

Disclaimer:
• Sorry, I can't really discuss where I got the bleach subs. You can probably guess how - depending on how tech savy you are -, but I can neither share or explain in too much detail the process (due to it being a tad naughty to say the least). This is partial due to copyright, partially due to the fact what I did was a little bit on the naughty side.
• I can't share my Kanzen deck. There is a forum post set up for the purpose and mine is not the same one that is being offered. You can make your own, but I can't really share how due to copyright reasons.
• You can, of course, speculate. But, I can't really explain (although, I may one day do so). Sorry if that seems a bit harsh. I want to show my method and, hopefully, help others to see new ways they can do things, not get myself in trouble (or at least not blatantly so).

@Cranks
Looks awesome. I usual make own bleach subs lol. But I know there are several ways of getting j-subs. But yea I won't dicuss them here. Anyhow, audio with context+vocab is deadly effective. One would just need two decks. 1 sentence and 1 vocab. And every time one sees a vocab they wouldn't know in that deck, they could easily transfer it to their vocab deck and eventually learn it.

This is a great resource I will add some of the things I do. I am studying 3 languages switching every month. (Japanese-Mandarin-Korean) I know it's crazy but it's just what I feel like.

1) I have colors for tones in Mandarin. 天 is red, 明 is orange, 我 is green, 是 is blue and 的 is purple. (For tone changes I use colored *)

In Japanese I teach a bunch of kids and some older people with the vowels in colors.
あかがたらやetc = purple
いきぎたらetc = blue
うくぐつゆetc = green
えけげでetc = orange
おこごとよetc = red

In Korean I do something similar but you get the idea.

2) I am studying Traditional Chinese so most kanji match up between languages and that makes studying them so much easier. I am starting over on Anki so I can make my own cards. I have finished the 2000 before but now I am learning the Chinese readings (I know most kunyomi readings already). I'm also adding Korean readings but those are for osmosis not for actual conscious memorization.

3) You know some people sing in the shower? Well I actually practice lines out loud sometimes (usually when there aren't any people). This has helped my pronunciation a lot because I will practice specific sentences that give me trouble. Then I change my voice so I can be a bit more flexible - not sure if it helps but when compared to a "class" there really isn't no competition but that is common with self study it seems.

Book recommendation)
With Korean there is ONE series which isn't bad and that is integrated Korean. It's about the same level as Genki actually. I am still using this series because I felt that with Korean there is so little resources for Eng-Korean that I will have to go as far as this will let me.