I've been looking for a long time for a handheld electronic flashcard gadget, especially one that has good support for studying Kanji. (It would be out-of-this-world awesome if its Kanji support followed the Heisig method, but this is a pipe dream.)

I'm surprised that I've not being able to find one, considering how popular flashcard-style studying, on the one hand, and handheld computing and gaming devices, on the other. I would imagine that such electronic handheld devices optimized for flashcard-based study would be rife. Have I managed to miss them?

Maybe they exist but are only marketed in Japan (or in China/Korea/Taiwan/etc.)? That would be sadly ironic: I can't yet read enough Japanese to find my way around that.

Does anyone know of such a device for gaijin wanting to learn Japanese?

TIA!


P.S. I know that there are all sorts of plugins for iPhone, PDAs, iPod Touch, etc. But I don't want to buy a general-purpose device like those. I want something specialized for flashcard study. Is this such an unreasonable thing to expect?

I've seen some in Japan with a target audience of English learning Japanese. I don't know the names off hand, but it did have an option of making flash cards on your computer and putting them on it.

If I recall correctly it wasn't cheap, and it looked kind of lame. If you're using Anki, I recommend an ipod/iphone. You can also put a lot of dictionaries, media, etc on it (although I find my electronic dictionary much more usable for the dictionaries).

Probably not the answer you're looking for! If you're *really* interested, I can get the names of the device next time I go to the store, but it's really not something that looks that good.

gfb345 Wrote:P.S. I know that there are all sorts of plugins for iPhone, PDAs, iTouch, etc. But I don't want to buy a general-purpose device like those. I want something specialized for flashcard study. Is this such an unreasonable thing to expect?

We're moving more and more towards device convergence. People will not carry around multiple items that can do the same thing.

What exactly do you imagine this flashcard gadget being like? What would make it more suitable for reviewing flashcards than a touch-screen PDA or a DS (with its 2 screens)??

aphasiac Wrote:What exactly do you imagine this flashcard gadget being like? What would make it more suitable for reviewing flashcards than a touch-screen PDA or a DS (with its 2 screens)??

Here's a trivial example: you want to give your 9-yr old daughter a little electronic gadget (similar to the games she already plays) to help her learn stuff for school (kanji, multiplication tables, French vocabulary, or whatever else). It seems to me that a dedicated flashcard gadget would be far better for this purpose than, say, an iPhone or even an iPod Touch.

AFAIC, "convergence" sounds great in theory, but it has drawbacks too: the more functions a gadget has, the more things that can go wrong, the more complicated the interface becomes, the greater chance that there will be optimization conflicts (i.e. a move that would optimize one application may worsen another application), and, not to mention, the more opportunities for unwelcome distractions (which is very important in the case of a tool meant to help with homework).

My cell phone has a camera, and it has come in handy many times, but I still have a "camera-camera", one designed only to take pictures. As a camera is orders of magnitude better than my cellphone camera, in every way: ease of use, picture quality, you name it. I imagine the same would hold true for a flashcard app: a dedicated gadget would be far superior than something made to run in an all-purpose device.

I'm sure that there's a broad range of preferences on this subject. Some people are perfectly satisfied with their cellphone cameras, and would not dream of spending the money for a "camera-camera", only to have an extra gadget to lug around. But others, like me, like to be able to get a tool designed specifically for a purpose. I'm glad that one can still get "camera-cameras"...

gfb345 Wrote:Here's a trivial example: you want to give your 9-yr old daughter a little electronic gadget (similar to the games she already plays) to help her learn stuff for school (kanji, multiplication tables, French vocabulary, or whatever else). It seems to me that a dedicated flashcard gadget would be far better for this purpose than, say, an iPhone or even an iTouch.

Why would it be better? Would be be different about it?

gfb345 Wrote:AFAIC, "convergence" sounds great in theory, but it has drawbacks too: the more functions a gadget has, the more things that can go wrong, the more complicated the interface becomes, the greater chance that there will be optimization conflicts (i.e. a move that would optimize one application may worsen another application), and, not to mention, the more opportunities for unwelcome distractions (which is very important in the case of a tool meant to help with homework).

All of those are software issues, and therefore could be solved in software.

Cameras still sell because of the hardware advantages. What makes this flashcard hardware better than a well written flashcard app running on the iphone?

Ever used a standalone electronic address book?

They all SUCK.

You know why? Because to have all the bells and whistles like touchscreen and color and being able to hook it to other devices, you need a whole computer. And that's expensive. So nobody is willing to buy a $500 address book when they can get a whole PDA for the same price, especially when the address functionality of the PDA is most likely better than the standalone anyhow.

You won't find what you are looking for (at least not in a useful form) because it doesn't make economic sense.

I kind of agree that such a device doesn't really make sense and I've certainly never heard of one although I do see the point about the real camera being better than an integrated one on a general purpose device yet that's really a hardware issue and in terms of flashcards it's all really based around the software so I guess the main concern is finding a device that is simple to operate, preferable cheap and can support Anki (because Anki is the best).

Hmm... You know I'd love a unicorn instead of a car because it's much cheaper on gas and it's super neat but it's just kinda not practical in reality owing to the rarity of such a beast.

Jokes aside I'd say your best bet really is to just suck it up and figure out which generic device will suit your purpose best. I agree an iPhone is overkill just for running Anki but something like a Nintendo DS running Anki actually seems like a feasible option here. I know DS is a gaming device but I bought mine ages ago to use it as a Dictionary and have done so for a long time now and then it migrated into a tool to study for the KanKen aswell so it's usefulness doubled and now I'm also playing an RPG in Japanese which I'm learning a lot from so it's usefulness tripled.

aphasiac Wrote:

gfb345 Wrote:Here's a trivial example: you want to give your 9-yr old daughter a little electronic gadget (similar to the games she already plays) to help her learn stuff for school (kanji, multiplication tables, French vocabulary, or whatever else). It seems to me that a dedicated flashcard gadget would be far better for this purpose than, say, an iPhone or even an iTouch.

Why would it be better? Would be be different about it?

A 10x price differential. Handheld gaming devices sell for as little as $10 or $20. I see no point in paying $300 when all I want is a flashcard program.

mezbup Wrote:I agree an iPhone is overkill just for running Anki but something like a Nintendo DS running Anki actually seems like a feasible option here. I know DS is a gaming device but I bought mine ages ago to use it as a Dictionary and have done so for a long time now and then it migrated into a tool to study for the KanKen aswell so it's usefulness doubled and now I'm also playing an RPG in Japanese which I'm learning a lot from so it's usefulness tripled.

Hmmmm, I thought this was a good idea until I checked out the price for a Nintendo DS: ~$120. ARE YOU GUYS NUTS??? (Or obscenely rich?) It's plain INSANE to pay that much for a gadget just to review Kanji.

Sheesh, one can find handheld gaming devices for $20 that have far more computational horsepower than is needed to run a flashcard program...

Convergence, shconvergence. Yes, one can add, subtract, multiply, and divide in one of your pricey, snazzy "convergent" devices, but one can also buy a $3 pocket calculator, if that's all one needs. Millions of Japanese kids need to learn Kanji every year; there's certainly a market for a cheap device like what I'm talking about.

gfb345 Wrote:Hmmmm, I thought this was a good idea until I checked out the price for a Nintendo DS: ~$120. ARE YOU GUYS NUTS??? (Or obscenely rich?) It's plain INSANE to pay that much for a gadget just to review Kanji.

Yes, it may be just for the purpose of reviewing kanji. Price-wise in terms of all it does for me personally it's quite a bargain.

gfb345 Wrote:Millions of Japanese kids need to learn Kanji every year

That's what school is for.

Btw, if you do find it let us know. I'm googling now but no luck so far.

EDIT:

http://www.chipchicklets.com/2008/10/lea...flash.html

hmm... DS is twice the price but can do 4 times as much. Though that isn't your concern considering you solely want the function of reviewing. So here your concern is does the device have a proper SRS algorhythm or is it just flashcards with no SRS system (which is useless for kanji really).

Furthermore does it even support kanji? Not likely.

I really don't think a $120 device that can help you review kanji, play Japanese video games, and run media only for the "obscenely rich".

I agree a $300 ipod is a little pricey, but if you use Anki it's absolutely amazing. Not to mention you can have portable English<>Japanese dictionaries, Japanese dictionaries, and if you're near a hotspot, internet too. Of course because it's an ipod you can put all your media on it too.

Computational power isn't the only concern when it comes to hardware. There's the obvious like having a screen with enough resolution to display kanji, batteries, etc. However where computational power really comes in handy is for the programmer. For example I'm sure the Anki developer would never want to program on a $20 piece of dedicated hardware, not to mention the headache of trying to get it to sync.

mezbup Wrote:I kind of agree that such a device doesn't really make sense and I've certainly never heard of one although I do see the point about the real camera being better than an integrated one on a general purpose device yet that's really a hardware issue and in terms of flashcards it's all really based around the software so I guess the main concern is finding a device that is simple to operate, preferable cheap and can support Anki (because Anki is the best).

btw that sentence almost blew my head up

gfb345 Wrote:Sheesh, one can find handheld gaming devices for $20 that have far more computational horsepower than is needed to run a flashcard program...

What are you referring to here? Those Tiger Electronics things that look like this?

http://www.ohgizmo.com/wp-content/upload...g_on_1.jpg

Because other than that, I'm not aware of any handheld console that sells, new, for $20. Unless you're talking about buying used stuff in which case you can't compare it to the $120 figure for the DS. I just checked my local craigslist and there's a DS Lite for $65.

Regarding the DS: you can buy decent dictionaries for it like the one with "sonomama" in the name ($30 compared to hundreds for an electronic handheld dictionary) And kanji learning games like kanken ds3. And if you get something like acekard and a microsd card you can put homebrew apps on it like ndsrs (an SRS app) which is pretty complicated to set up but it is possible to export to it from anki including with Japanese characters.

Btw I've found that iPod touch works great with the revtk site.

$120 is insane? I make that in a few hours and I don't consider myself to have a very good paying job (unless I'm doing some freelance xlation, then I can make that in about 40 minutes).. I've spent more than that on a night out for drinks.

Japanese people learn kanji at school, all have cellphones, and most have ds. There is no market for a dinky single purpose gadget. The market for foreigners is even smaller (which is why there is only one JSL soft for DS and it's utter rubbish). Denshi jisho are close, but cost more than a ds. Also, iPod touches do not cost $300 for a new one, let alone a used previous generation model. A used first gen iPod touch is worth maybe $60-80.

I'm guessing you're pretty young (middle school?) age if you're worried about $120, but eventually you should realize that time is much more important than money. The amount of time an ipod touch will save you studying is worth thousands.

*DS is better than nothing, but an iPod touch is vastly superior for study use imo. Android will probably be ok too once the platform matures a bit more. I doubt it'll have much in the way of good Japanese software though (official dicts)

Folks, you're having such hard time understanding such a simple point. It's not rocket science. Here, I'll break it down for you:

1. The technology required for an electronic flashcard program is currently *very* cheap. Judging by what one sees in the handheld gaming world, one should be able to produce and make a profit on a $40 unit, easily.

2. The demand for such a tool, in Asia at least, but enormous, because in those countries they favor flashcard-style learning, and in many of those countries they have the additional incentive of using such an approach because of the need to memorize thousands of Chinese characters.

3. To argue that an all-purpose tool is better or worse than a dedicated tool is plain silly. It depends on what the person needs and can afford. If I went to Staples to buy for a cheap calculator, I'd be incensed if the salesperson tried to sell me an electronic notebook for 30x the price, on the grounds that it was a lot more powerful. I don't care that a notebook can do a lot more: to pay that much when all I want is [+-*/] is, either insane, or financially frivolous (i.e. the purchasing behavior that only the obscenely rich can afford).

What's so hard to understand about all this???

The only point of potential debate here is the question (in #1 above) of how cheaply one of these dedicated handheld devices could be made and sold profitably. My estimate of $40 is solely based on what I see for sale for handheld video games, and I think is a very generous one, allowing for a high-quality screen, a USB port, etc. Maybe I'm wrong on the actual number. I can't imagine it could cost more than $60. I can also imagine that a very feature-poor one (e.g. one that came with all the Kanzi required by the Japanese educational system pre-packaged, and no ability to change the content of the study material in any way) could be made and sold for very little money, maybe $25.

It's simply not possible to make something with a nice screen and all that *new* for that little amount of money. Almost all the cost for the all-purpose devices is hardware, and not software. Comparing a pocket calculator and a PC is completely different than things with similar hardware.

You also say there's huge demand in Asia. In Japan almost everybody has a high powered cell phone, and in many cases, more than one. Lots of people have DSs too. Above all that, most serious students in Japan also have an electronic dictionary. I personally have all of the above, just like 100% of my fellow students (DS aside for some).

What you're looking for simply doesn't exist. If there was a huge market and demand, somebody would be entering the market.

Regardless who's correct, there's no need to take such an aggressive stance. Maybe it's just the internet and its inability to convey tones, but I'm out. Happy hunting for your product. I'd be very interested in reading about if it such a thing exists.

gfb345: I suspect your analysis is sweeping the software development costs under the carpet rather. You can amortise these over a huge number of units (pocket calculator, phone, DS or other general purpose device) or over a series of generations of gradually improving hardware (electronic dictionaries), but for a one-off fixed-function device to a comparatively limited market I think they'll be a rather large proportion of your costs and also a big proportion of your risks (since they're all up-front costs regardless of how well your device sells). For comparison, KanKen DS3 list price is about $30 equivalent, and that's *just* software (and software which is piggybacking on the DS3's existing hardware/lowlevel/device specific code, at that).